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A better way to ask this question would be "Does your Church building where you congregate have a sign with the words "Church of Christ" on it."suzie said:So then you do attend the Church of Christ. I posted a post and you have yet to respond to it. I will wait for your reply.
Do you believe that someone with faith will act out his or her faith (and indeed, be justified before men by the acrions)?suzie said:These are not just my thoughts. They are remarks based on Scripture... &c.
That is not at all what this verse says kentucky. It says if we confess Jesus is Lord ...Rom. 10:9 is very clear... It plainly states that person is saved after confession and belief!
suzie said:That is not at all what this verse says kentucky. It says if we confess Jesus is Lord ....
suzie said:It goes on to again state that in v13 "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
"Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness...(Romans 4:4, 5)"western kentucky said:Suzie,
Just to keep it simple, I would like to address only one point.....
These are not works that one can boast in, but merely acts... through which one can recieve the grace of God. What are your thoughts?
Hey Aggie! I'm doing great. It's good to be back on here!
If it's a gift, then no. If you have to do something to receive something, it isn't a gift. It's wages. (Paul's definitions, not mineaggie03 said:So you never have to do anything to receive a gift?
Philo said:"Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness...(Romans 4:4, 5)"
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. (Romans 11:6)"
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)"
So, faith is creditted as righteousness before God, right? And grace is not grace if it is on the basis of works, right? And eternal life is a free gift, right? And yet, somehow your exegesis contradicts these three (internally harmonius) points? To paraphrase what you said, we have to do acts to gain grace, grace being on the basis of our performance of these acts, and our eternal life contigent on these acts.
Perhaps confession, repentence, baptism, &c are coincident with salvation? This is something worth considering, since unlike a great number in the world, we are under no pressure by our "church" to cling to the party line. In fact, scholasticising these issues as to make ourselves seem intellectually blameless and doctrinally sure in fact makes us seem intellectually dishonest and doctrinally sectarian. Most of the current division within churches with "Church of Christ" on the sign outside comes from eac individual group's belief that there is only on correct reading of scripture, and all others are sinful. What if there is only one correct reading of scripture (the one that dictates that Christ died for our sins and rose on the third day) and infinite numbers of largely inconsequencial but culturally significant readings that shape each congregation's corporate practices? Again, worth considering, since belief in Jesus saves us and not belief in the Bible.
Oh snap I'm postmodern like that,
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[PS
Reading the Bible a verse at a time (without deference to context), or relentlessly scouring it for prooftexts, is akin to eating a banana peel... Slowly. Reading and understanding big chunks of the bible is infinitely more edible. Also, when harmonizing the Bible with itself, we don't harmonize verses. We harmonize ideas. Otherwise, the Bible would instantly disqualify itself from being true solely on the basis of James 2 and Romans 4, which contain sentences which are exact, necessary contradictions to one another if read alone.]
aggie03 said:I read your post, and as I have said before, you didn't use any verses from the Bible. I have asked you to do this for two reasons:
1. I would like to see your reasoning and thinking process that you have used to arrive at your conclusions.
2. I am not interested in opinions. What I think, what you think, what anyone else here thinks is not important. What God has said is important. You will do far more in convincing me that what you believe is what God intended if you use His words and not your own (at least referencing them is what I really mean).
As it stands now, I really can't respond to what you're written because I have no idea how you've reached those conclusions, and I don't know how you believe that the sum of God's word teaches what you believe. Honestly, I really have no where to go because we have, as of yet, not talked about the word of God but only what you think. As I stated earlier, and I mean no disrespect, I am not interested in opinions. I spent a lot of time before I became a Christian listening to what people thought, and that never really got me anywhere.
Well, the Bible (and my post) were rather specific about faith being necessary. But let's be clear on something here... Faith is not a work. Faith is a state of mind. If someone showed you a picture of Mount Rushmore and said "this is what Mount Rushmore looks like" and you believed him, was that a work?western kentucky said:Here's the way I view it....
If your understanding of grace, faith, and works are correct, then both faith and baptism are not necessary. In Titus 2:11, one can understand that God's grace is offered to all men. In Matt. 7:13-14, one can also understand that all men will not be saved.... So, it is reasonable to consider that there is more to consider than God's grace.
What does Jesus teach is necessary for salvation in Mark 16:16? How about in Acts 2:38? What does Jesus say a person's mindset should be after obeying the commandments of God? Have they earned salvation or nullified God's grace?
suzie said:Romans 10:9 does not say you have to make a confession --it says to "confess" with your mouth that Jesus is Lord.
Look to the prior verse "The word is near you . It is in your mouth and in your heart, that is the word of faith we are proclaiming...."
The Greek verb for this is "homologeo" which means "to declare openly by speaking out freely, such confession being the effect of deep conviction of facts" (Vine's A-1c). Confession is not a private act. When one confesses Jesus one verbalizes publicly belief in Jesus as the Son of God
Philo said:Well, the Bible (and my post) were rather specific about faith being necessary. But let's be clear on something here... Faith is not a work. Faith is a state of mind. If someone showed you a picture of Mount Rushmore and said "this is what Mount Rushmore looks like" and you believed him, was that a work?
The same applies to Jesus. We are given the testimony of credible witnesses. If we are cut to the heart by its truth, we believe. If that belief is faith, we will have no choice but to act. You can't not act upon faith any more than you can try and walk through a wall with the full knowledge and conviction that the wall is a solid thing that you can't walk through.
Now, we could believe but not have faith... But that simply means that although we reguard the gospel as true, probably true, historically accurate or whatever, we can't let go of ourselves. We still have faith: Faith in our own self-sufficiency.
I hope that clears things up a bit.
<3,
Philo
I think that John 6:26-29 is more about the people's coming to Jesus because they were hungry and they wanted a bite to eat. That it uses the word "work" is incidental. Faith simply cannot be a work. You can't will yourself to have faith, because you've already failed if you have to convince yourself of something that you don't believe. And if you don't have to convince yourself of it, then where's the work?western kentucky said:Jesus tells us that "faith" or "belief" is a work.... Consider John 6:26-29.
You believe that "faith" is not a work, and that "baptism" is a work! How did you come that conclusion? From my point of view, baptism is an act of faith where God does the real work (Col. 2:12).
Philo said:I think that John 6:26-29 is more about the people's coming to Jesus because they were hungry and they wanted a bite to eat. That it uses the word "work" is incidental. Faith simply cannot be a work. You can't will yourself to have faith, because you've already failed if you have to convince yourself of something that you don't believe. And if you don't have to convince yourself of it, then where's the work?
Isn't "receiving" something that you have to do?Philo said:If it's a gift, then no. If you have to do something to receive something, it isn't a gift. It's wages. (Paul's definitions, not mine)
You didn't address my reasoning... How can it be a work to believe in something you already believe in? How can belief that you have to work for be called belief and not self-deception?western kentucky said:John 6:26-29 says that faith is a work..... "Faith" is a determination that one must choose. Consider Acts 16:30-31.
Also consider Mark 16:16 - "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."
The "And" is a coordinating conjunction connecting two equal parts. With your reasoning -- If "faith" is not a work, then "baptism" is not a work.
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