Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

[YAQUBOS]

Not sure where the idea that baptism is something received. In Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, and Acts 22:16 it is commanded, just as is faith or belief in Acts 16:31, and repentance in Acts 2:38. Each is something we must obey.

Baptism is something you receive by faith. It seems that we first need to explain what baptism means, before we begin to study if it is necessary for Salvation or not. Actually, obedience is not something you ADD to faith. Faith itself is obedient, and it is this faith that receives Jesus Christ crucified and risen from the dead. This is what baptism is.

So those who have this obedient faith will surely obey and get baptized. But this doesn’t mean that when they are being baptized they are inventing a meaning to baptism. Baptism is what it is. They just receive it by obedient faith.

So once again: baptism is essential in Salvation. But it is NOT essential FOR Salvation.

I never said nor implied that Acts 2:38 is a stand alone passage. However, I disagree that "the real meaning of baptism is in repentance." Repentance is a change or heart or mind. In Acts 2:38, it carries the idea of turning from the mindset of rejecting Jesus (note context - 2:23) and accepting Him as both Lord and Christ (2:36), and includes the idea of turning from sin in general. Baptism is based on faith in the working of God per Colossians 2:12-13. Note Hebrews 11:6. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Therefore, faith or belief is required with baptism (which is the idea expressed by Jesus in Mark 16:16). Like faith, I agree that baptism must be accompanied with repentance. I never said anything differently.

I have put in bold the error that is making you conclude all the wrong things about baptism. Actually, repentance does not accompany faith like someone accompanies his friend. Faith ITSELF is a repentant faith and an obedient faith. I have told you before that Salvation is not an equation like: Faith + obedience + repentance + baptism + etc. = Salvation. This is totally wrong. A person who turns from sin to God by Jesus Christ, i.e. who has faith, does not tell himself: “Well, now that I believed + I repented + I want to obey, so all what is lacking yet for the equation of Salvation is baptism”. That’s not the biblical truth of Salvation by faith alone.

So, as baptism has no meaning without repentance, then baptism is NOT necessary FOR Salvation, but it is necessary IN Salvation. You can’t be saved and still have a disobedient heart. True saving faith is an obedient faith, a repentant faith.

Not sure where/how the idea of "external sign" got involved in the discussion. Baptism is based on faith per Col. 2:12-13. Without it, the person only gets wet. However, with faith in the Lord, baptism is God's way of uniting a sinner with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection to die to sin, be freed from it, and become alive to God. That's the idea expressed in Romans 6:3-11.

Romans 6:3-11 doesn’t say that baptism makes you die, be buried and rise with Christ. That passage says that all those who have believed, received those truths in baptism. So that passage never said that baptism is necessary FOR Salvation.

Besides, who doesn’t know that the water of baptism doesn’t have in it a magical power, unless he is a pagan?? So that water does not change anything in itself, and it is the external sign of what happens inside by faith.

If as you say, a person has eternal life at the point of "real repentant faith,"

You repeated again this error, dear friend. There is nothing called “has eternal life AT THE POINT of ‘real repentant faith’” This is not biblical. Salvation was finished ONCE FOR ALL on the cross. When you come to God by faith in Christ, you are not adding anything to what happened on the cross. You are only receiving it. And that receiving is not an act that stops in the past. Once you open your heart to Christ, you receive grace upon grace, and not only grace.

Look to what a wrong conclusion you get because of this error:

then it goes back to my original question: Can a person inherit eternal life while still in their sins?

The clear answer is NO. Cornelius and those who were with him were NOT in their sins when they were not yet baptized. They received the Spirit of life as soon as they believed, because they were justified and they received the life of Christ, the eternal life.

Note carefully Acts 2:38. Repentance and baptism are connected by the word "and," a coordinating conjunction connecting two equal parts. Thus, if repentance is required to have one's sins taken away, then baptism is also required.

I have already explained to you what Acts 2:38 is really saying. It clearly says that baptism without repentance is nothing.

Now, I see what the main problem with you is. It is that “and” all the time. Faith AND repentance, faith AND obedience, repentance AND baptism. While the truth is: repentant faith, obedient faith, baptism of repentance. That “and” in that passage is like the "and" in the following passage:

“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” ( Ephesians 1:2 )

From this “and” you can’t conclude that Jesus Christ is not God.

Real baptism is not something ADDED to repentance. Baptism is the sign of repentance. No way to speak about them as separated things. It is not “repentance + baptism”, it is: “”baptism OF repentance”. Note the following carefully:

“and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.” ( Luke 24:47 )

“Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” ( Acts 2:38 )

“John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” ( Mark 1:4 )

It is a baptism OF repentance, and not repentance PLUS baptism.

You seem to be trying to separate repentance from baptism and trying to place the forgiveness of sins between the two in this passage.

The exact opposite! It is you who are trying to separate repentance from baptism, and to say that they must be ADDED to each other so that we may have the forgiveness of sins as a RESULT of BOTH ADDED. While the fact is that you receive the forgiveness of your sins by faith alone, i.e. by repentance, and baptism is the sign of that repentance.

Also, note Acts 22:16. There's no indication there that Saul (i.e., the apostle Paul) had his sins forgiven before baptism. Quite the contrary. He is told to be baptized to wash away his sins.

Not at all! That verse doesn’t say that he had to be baptized TO wash away his sins. On the contrary, he is told to be baptized AND wash away his sins BY calling on the Name of the Lord ( the same “and” as above. )

Acts 22:16 - “Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.”

So you get baptized AND you wash away your sins BY calling on His Name.

Your rationale has his sins being washed away before God's word says they were.

Do you mean that baptism contradicts the Word of God? Friend, baptism is not human words, but it is what GOD says to us. In his baptism, Paul didn’t himself SAY something to God, but GOD said something to him.


We continue in the next reply, if the Lord wills.


Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

As for the thief on the cross, he lived and died under the law of Moses. It wasn't until after Jesus' death that His testament (i.e., will) went into effect per Hebrews 9:16-17. Borrowing from that thought, we can think of Peter's sermon in Acts 2 as the reading of Jesus' will.

First, “Testament” doesn’t mean simply “will”. I won’t go into details about that here, because that’s not the topic. Let’s concentrate on the essential.

The essential is that you have no idea about what it means to be under the Law of Moses, and about its difference from being under Grace. You actually must be talking about being under the Old Covenant, not about being under the Law. All those who are saved, whether in the Old Covenant or in the New Covenant were not under the Law. If anyone is under the Law, then he is under the curse of the Law, and he is a slave of sin that is master over him:

“For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.” ( Romans 6:14 )

There is no way to be saved by the Law. Salvation is by Grace alone, both in the Old and in the New Covenants.

So that thief, just like all the Old Testament believers, was saved and had the forgiveness of his sins by faith alone. No way to see the Kingdom of God without being born again. That’s what Jesus said. So all those who were saved in the Old Covenant were also born again by faith.

So, in brief, that thief lived and died under the Old Covenant, but he died under Grace not under law. He believed in Jesus Christ and was saved.

Besides, your comment about being under the Law of Moses is irrelevant here, because even if the thief didn’t live under the New Covenant, but there was John the Baptist who ALREADY preached the baptism OF repentance for the forgiveness of sins:

“John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” ( Mark 1:4 )

So why didn’t Jesus ask that thief why he had not been baptized by the baptism of John?

If baptism ( apart from repentance ) were necessary FOR the forgiveness of sins, then that thief would not be able to have the forgiveness of his sins, because he was not baptized by John’s baptism OF repentance FOR the forgiveness of sins.

And your argument is even more irrelevent, as MANY received the forgiveness of their sins during the life of Jesus on earth, and the Apostles of Jesus were baptizing people, AND Jesus didn’t tell them to get baptized in order to have the forgiveness of their sins. Let me go in this step by step:

1. The Apostles of Jesus Christ were baptizing people
“After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.
John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized” ( John 3:22-23 )

“Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
(although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)” ( John 4:1-2 )

So Jesus was baptizing people, just as also John was baptizing. And what was that baptism? It was the baptism of repentance FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS:

“John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” ( Mark 1:4 )

So, in brief, this first point shows us that Jesus was ALREADY baptizing people with the baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. So this baptism was there when the thief received the forgiveness of his sins WITHOUT being baptized, JUST AS many others received that same forgiveness BEFORE they were baptized. Look at it in the second point:

2. Jesus didn’t tell those who came to Him for the forgiveness of their sins to get baptized by His Apostles BEFORE they can have the forgiveness of their sins
“And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."” ( Matthew 9:2 )

N.B.: this paralytic was not baptized before he received the forgiveness of his sins. And Jesus didn’t ask him to get baptized by His Apostles BEFORE He forgives him his sins.

“Then He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven."” ( Luke 7:48 )

This woman was a sinner, as the Bible clearly states in Luke 7. Jesus didn’t ask her to get baptized by His Apostles before He declared clearly that her sins HAVE BEEN forgiven.

And remember: Both the paralytic and this woman were under the Old Covenant, just like that thief, and both of them lived during a time when Jesus was ALREADY baptizing people with the baptism of repentance FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

Do you see how much the Bible is consistent with itself?

Disagree with your conclusion concerning Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. Note Peter's only conclusion in verse 47. His only conclusion was that the Jews couldn't forbid the Gentiles from being baptized as were the Jews.

No, dear friend. Look at the REAL conclusion of Peter:

“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” ( Acts 10:47 )

They received the baptism with the Holy Spirit, just as the disciples received on the day of Pentecost. Do you think anyone can receive the Holy Spirit while still being in his sins? Do you think the Holy Spirit can dwell in the same heart WITH sin? The Bible answers no.

By the Lord's Grace, we continue in the next reply.

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Therefore, Peter commanded the Gentiles to be baptized as were the Jews in Acts 2:38. You are trying to read things into the text that simply aren't there, specifically receiving the "meaning of baptism" is equivalent to actually being baptized.

Is that part of HAVING received the Holy Spirit “just as we did” NOT in your copy of the Bible? Am I reading it into the text?

Granted, the faith that God accepts is a living, active, and obedient faith per James 2:14-26. With that in mind, a command was given in Acts 2:38 for the Jews on Pentecost to have their sins taken away. Three thousand obeyed per verse 41. Therefore, who had that living, active, and obedient faith? The three thousand who obeyed the command of God, or those that didn't?

Those who obeyed HAD the living faith. That’s what I am saying: HAD. They didn’t begin to have that faith AFTER they were baptized. They already HAD it. And that faith ALONE saved them, because it is that faith that made them be baptized, for that faith is what? It is OBEDIENT.

God's grace has been extended to all (Titus 2:11). However, all will not be saved per Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23. Some of the Jews in Acts 2 believed the message preached. It is implied or inferred by their response in verse 37. However, they weren't told just to have their sins taken away in verse 38, but to repent and be baptized. Don't overlook the coordinating conjunction. Both repentance and baptism are required. Both were commanded.

Both are what living faith is and does. I have already explained this.

You can’t do any commandment of God, you can’t do ANYTHING without dwelling in Christ, i.e. without having the Son:

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.” ( John 15:4-5 )

In other words, if you don’t have the Son, you don’t have life. But as soon as you have the Son, you HAVE eternal life:

“He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.” ( 1 John 5:12 )

Luke 24:46-47 is parallel with Mark 16:15-16 and Matthew 28:19. All are accounts of what is commonly called the Great Commission. As explained before, repentance typically means turning from sin (especially where the rejection of Christ and His crucifiction were concerned).

And that Word is the seed that faith receives.

Did you forget your previous comments about Acts 2:38 and how it is not a stand alone passage nor unrelated to other Scriptures? The same principle is also true for Luke's account of the Great Commission. You seem to have forgotten a basic principle of Bible interpretation: an understanding derived from one passage or text of Scripture must harmonize with other passages/texts (see Matthew 4:5-7), assuming that one truly desires to discern truth.

Yes. And the Bible clearly says that the forgiveness of sins ( justification ) is by faith alone, not by works:

“just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."” ( Romans 4:6-8 )

Such passages of the Bible must make you understand that baptism is NOT something you DO for Salvation, but it is something you RECEIVE by faith alone.

Oh ... but Peter did in Acts 2:38.

And they believed in that Word.

May the Lord give us to continue in the next reply.

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

I agree that baptism must be accompanied with belief and repentance, but would also suggest not overlooking the necessity of confessing Jesus per Matthew 10:32-33 and Acts 8:37.

So baptism is necessary IN Salvation, but not FOR Salvation. That’s what I am telling you all the time. If it was necessary FOR Salvation, then you would receive the real meaning of baptism as soon as you are baptized, which is wrong, because many baptized people are still in their sins.

You keep trying to characterize baptism as something received. The Scriptures are clear that it is a command (e.g., Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, Acts 22:16). Why not just describe it the way God's word does?

And who said that God doesn’t give what He commands? The real problem of self-righteousness is to do the following: When you hear the commandment, you try to do it by the flesh. While faith does the following: When he hears the commandment, he does it by the Spirit, not by the flesh. Doing it by the Spirit means that God is giving what He commands. He is doing for us our works:

“LORD, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all our works.” ( Isaiah 26:12 )

Without this fact of God giving what He commands, you will never have real Peace, just as the verse from Isaiah says.

And also:

“for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” ( Philippians 2:13 )

So it is GOD who is making you will and do His commandments. He gives what He commands. But if you are not born again yet, then these things do not apply to you; you are rather trying to do all this by the flesh, and you never have the peace of the forgiveness of your sins.

So, yes, it is a commandment, and we receive its accomplishment IN CHRIST, not in the flesh. By the Law ( by keeping commandments ) NO FLESH will be justified before God:

“because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” ( Romans 3:20 )

In other words, you either keep ALL the commandments of God and ALWAYS, or else you are not saved. The only way to do that is not by the flesh, but by the Spirit:

“so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” ( Romans 8:4 )

When you want to understand the Bible, you need to let the Bible explain itself, and not choose the passages that YOU want in order to explain a certain passage.

Acts 2:38 (NKJV) says: "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ...' ". This passage is a direct statement or command. Three thousand obeyed what they were told to do according to verse 41. Do you actually think they didn't do anything? Unless I'm mistaken, those that didn't receive the word were the ones that didn't do anything. One of us has the story backward.

That’s what I said: They RECEIVED the Grace of God, and baptism is a part of that Grace.

Do you think those people could be saved by just obeying the outward commandment? If they didn’t believe with a living faith, would their baptism give them the forgiveness of their sins? Well, something like that happened with Simon the magician in Acts 8:

“Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.” ( Acts 8:13 )

But Simon later proved to be a false disciple. So all his faith and even baptism did not make him receive any forgiveness of sins, because he didn’t have the living faith. Peter told him:

“Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
"For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."” ( Acts 8:22-23 )

Simon was still in the bondage of iniquity, although baptized.

Bottom line, according to Romans 6:3-11, the new birth occurs during baptism.

Not at all!! In that passage, the Apostle is talking about those who were baptized IN CHRIST JESUS, not about all those who were baptized. Many are baptized, and yet not born again. The water of baptism is only the outward sign of new birth; having it doesn’t make you be born again.

And, since baptism is a command that must be obeyed to please God, then I suggest giving some additional thought to your reasoning. Note the first action required in Acts 22:16: "arise." It involves action or doing something. Three thousand did it in Acts 2. Cornelius and his household did it in Acts 10. And, Saul did it in Acts 22. The concept is not hard to understand.

Yes. And nothing of all that had any value without the living faith that received the forgiveness of sins.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Timing is definitely under consideration in Romans 6.

Not at all! Show me anywhere in Romans 6 where the Apostle is talking about the timing. He’s clearly talking about the MEANING of baptism, not about the timing.

The Romans had been baptized. Therefore, they should not be continuing in sin according to verse 2. The apostle Paul reminds them of what occurred during baptism in the verses followed. Note verse 7. In baptism they were freed from sin. That means prior to baptism they were still in their sins, right? Give it some thought.

No, the passage says that prior to their being IN CHRIST JESUS they were still in their sins, and that baptism MEANS that “being in Christ Jesus”. The Apostle is not talking about the timing of baptism; he’s talking about the MEANING of baptism.

Not sure where this differentiation comes between "in Salvation" versus "FOR Salvation."

From the Bible.

Your statement: "Only the Grace of God is necessary for Salvation, and you receive that Grace by Faith alone," can be captured by the old idea of "salvation by grace through faith alone," which clearly contradicts passages such as Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and Romans 6:3-11

NEVER! On the contrary, those passages that you mentioned clearly say that Salvation is by Grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. Any other conclusion from those verses contradicts the whole Bible.

There is NO contradiction between Peter's conclusion in Acts 10:47-48 and Romans 6:3-11.

Of course there is not. The Bible doesn’t contradict itself. But your wrong understanding about baptism contradicts both Acts 10 and Romans 6.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Somehow, we keep failing to connect. After Jesus appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus in Acts 9, Saul was taken into Damascus where he spent the next three days without sight and without food or drink (verse 9). He also was praying during that time (verse 11). However, he was still in his sins.

Where does the Bible say that he was still in his sins? The command to wash away his sins by faith doesn’t imply that. Faith is not something stagnant in a point in the past. You either believe NOW, or you are still in your sins and you can’t receive the washing away of your sins. True faith is a LIVING faith, dear DRA. It works through love. You can’t imagine someone who has a living faith and yet expecting to have the forgiveness of his sins while living in disobedience. You can’t imagine him not understanding that baptism is necessary in Salvation.

Jesus sent Ananias to Saul, and gave the instructions in Acts 22:16. First of all, Saul was to "arise." More specifically, he was told to "arise and be baptized and wash away his sins calling on the name of the Lord." Calling on the name of the Lord means to act by His authority (note Acts 4:7 & Colossians 3:17).

Calling on the Name of the Lord means trusting His Name for Salvation:

“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."” ( Acts 4:12 )

The passages that you mentioned say:

Acts 4:7 – “When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, "By what power, or in what name, have you done this?"”

This verse doesn’t say a word about calling the Lord’s Name. It speaks about DOING things in the Name of the Lord.

Colossians 3:17 – “Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.”

Again, this is about DOING things in the Name of the Lord. It’s not about calling on the Name of the Lord.

With those two verses, did you mean to impress those who would not open their Bible to read them?? They don’t talk about calling on the Name of the Lord.

In essence, Saul was told to do what Jesus authorized to have his sins taken away. Note also the expression "calling on the name of the Lord to be saved" in Acts 2:21 and the instructions given in Acts 2:38 for sins to be taken away (i.e., to be saved). The instructions are comparable to Acts 22:16. In summary, calling on the name of the Lord to be saved in both Acts 2:21 and 22:16 means doing what the Lord authorized to have one's sins washed away.

Of course; living faith is an obedient faith: it does what the Lord commands.

I agree that calling on the name of the Lord involves faith. Without faith, one simply cannot please God per Hebrews 11:6. That's an open and shut case.

Seriously: What do you understand by “calling on the Name of the Lord”? Do you understand shouting “Lord” with a loud voice?…

Somehow, "faith alone" keeps getting inserted into every text. Faith is important, but inserting the word "alone" into the text is an injustice to God's word. Your reference to grace by faith alone brings to mind Ephesians 2:8, but on close examination it is apparent the word "alone" isn't in that passage.

On close examination, the word “Trinity” also is not in the whole Bible… But this doesn’t mean that this doctrine is wrong. We read it in the Bible. In the same way, Justification by Grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone is what the whole Bible clearly says.

Somehow, it keeps getting inserted into passages. I have a suggestion. Why not just let the passages say what they say without inserting any words into the text? Could it be possible that God knew what He was doing when He inspired His word, and doesn't really need our "help" in tampering with passages by adding words into them that simply aren't there?

Show me where I ever added any word in the text of any passage of the Bible. Explaining expressions like “apart from works” or “not by works” doesn’t mean inserting words in the text. Those expressions are already there, and they are clearly saying that Salvation is by faith alone.

Note Acts 2:38.

Do you have any other text of sermon?? You keep repeating this single text that I proved to mean that baptism is nothing without repentance, and you don’t notice that I have already quoted a big number of biblical passages that say the opposite of what you are saying and clearly declare Salvation by faith alone.

A command is given "for the remission of sins," which is synonymous with having one's sins taken away or washed away. Since sin is what separates one from God per Isaiah 59:2, to have one's sins taken away means that one is NOT separated from God - which implies/infers one is in favorable or saved condition with God. Another comparable passage is Romans 6:7. One is freed from sin in baptism. Like it or not, it's what the context teaches. It's discussing what occurs in baptism. Therefore, I still would like to know how one can be saved without having their sins taken away. If salvation occurs before baptism, the issue must be addressed.

Salvation doesn’t happen BEFORE baptism. Salvation happens WITHOUT baptism, and it INCLUDES baptism. You keep talking about the timing, while the passages are about the MEANING of baptism. Whether you are baptized before you had a living faith or after, that baptism is nothing in itself. The real meaning of baptism is in what Christ did, and not you.

Let me ask you a simple question. Are all your sins forgiven, now that you are baptized? And what if you commit a sin now? Do you need to get baptized again?

Read carefully the following passage:

“For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” ( Hebrews 10:14 )

I see “baptism” in “sanctified”. But I don’t see it in “perfected for all time”, because “perfected for all time” happened by that “one offering”, and not by baptism.

So just answer the above question: Are all your sins ( past, present, and future ) forgiven, now that you are baptized? And what if you commit a sin now? Do you need to get baptized again?

We continue in the next reply, if the Lord wills.

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

As for those who lived under the old covenant, they will be judged by the old covenant.

Excuse me?? Let’s read:

“And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” ( Revelation 20:15 )

I don’t see any exception here. Whether people who lived under the Old Covenant or under the New Covenant, if their name is not in the book of life, they are lost. And, N.B., all Old Testament people were saved by faith, apart from works, just as the Bible says about Abraham and David and all the Old Testament saints.

Today, we are under the new covenant - the gospel (or law) of Christ. It is the standard we are expected to live under.

ALL people, even in the Old Testament, were supposed to be saved by the Gospel, and not by the Law, because, as we have seen, the Law cannot save. Here is the Gospel in the Old Testament, even in the center of the Law:

“But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching” ( Romans 10:6-8 )

Those quotes in Romans are from the Law, and they speak about the righteousness based on faith, not on works, i.e. based on the Gospel:

“It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.” ( Deuteronomy 30:12-14 )

The New COVENANT is new, but the Gospel is old; it is even before the Law:

“What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.” ( Galatians 3:17 )

The Law came after the promise. And the promise is valid ONLY by faith, not by the works of the Law:

“For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified” ( Romans 4:13-14 )

So all people, whether in the Old Testament or the New, are saved by faith, and not by the works of the Law => By faith alone.

If baptism is not necessary for salvation as you suggest, then according to Galatians 3:27 one can be saved without being "in Christ" or "putting on Christ." In essence, your position means one can be saved without the Lord. I suggest rethinking your position.

No one can be saved without being in Christ or in God by faith alone. And baptism is a part of that Salvation.

It is not by throwing water on someone or by being immersed that he puts on Christ. It is by faith that he receives that MEANING in baptism.

You keep arguing about things that you don’t really understand, as you yourself said about “not necessary FOR Salvation” and “necessary IN Salvation”.

Originally Posted by - DRA -

Can you direct me to a passage that says "FAITH ALONE" puts one into Christ?



Sorry, but reading "alone" into all the passages that discuss faith isn't the same as producing a single passage that actually says we are saved by faith "alone."

I didn’t ask you to read “alone” INTO all those passages. I asked you to just read those passages in context.

If you can’t see “faith alone” in those passages, then I wonder how you see “Trinity” anywhere in the Bible.

Never said we "earn salvation." That idea totally contradicts the concept of God's grace. Note Luke 17:10. We are supposed to do the things commanded. However, after obedience is given, we still should consider ourselves unprofitable servants. It means even after complete submission and obedience to God's will, we haven't earned a thing.

Great! So you don’t earn the forgiveness of your sins by getting baptized. You are an unprofitable servant! You only did what you should do. Unless you are kidding with us when you say you are Unprofitable.

It implies/infers salvation is totally dependent upon God's grace.

Totally? Well, you began to agree with the Bible now. Just tell me what you mean by “totally”. Do you mean that you don’t add anything from your part in order to be saved? Do you mean that when you get baptized, you don’t add anything of value from yourself that makes the Salvation of God ( the forgiveness of sins ) valid for you?

I insist on taking an explanation about this “totally”. It is very interesting.

However, it doesn't mean we don't have to do the things commanded to be saved from our sins.

Here we go again… So is it totally the work of God, or you also have to add something from your part? Make up your mind. Is it that you are not doing anything, and that ONLY God is at work in you to will and to do what He commands, just as the Bible says:

“for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” ( Philippians 2:13 )

“Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,
equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.” ( Hebrews 13:20-21 )

The God of peace HIMSELF works in us that which is pleasing in His sight. Not us working by ourselves, but HE working in us.

Have you noticed how much the Bible is consistent with itself? The Holy Spirit used here the expression “the God of peace”, because the only way to have the peace of God is to really experience that it is GOD who works our works for us:

“LORD, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all our works.” ( Isaiah 26:12 )

So, in brief, YES you need to obey all the commandments of God. You do that by faith alone, and not by works; by the Spirit, not by the flesh.

Three thousand did as they were commanded in Acts 2:38 (see verse 41). And, Saul certainly obeyed what he was told to do to have his sins washed away. Did any of these "earn" salvation? Certainly not. But, they humbled themselves by accepting God's grace on His terms. I suggest we follow their example.

Amen! And this is Salvation by faith alone.

What you just said means that baptism is necessary in Salvation. And that’s what I am saying.

I fully understand what you are saying, however ...

1 Peter 3:20 says: "... Eight souls were saved through water (NKJV)."

And no water touched them.

1 Peter 3:21 says: "There is also an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism ..."

Yes, baptism is necessary IN Salvation. Without the water of the Flood, the sinful humans would not perish, and those who were in the Ark would be like fools who enter in an Ark while being in a desert without water.

The rest in the next reply, if the Lord permits.

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Oooops. There you go again. Reading "faith alone" into the text. Faith is there alright, but the word you're looking for isn't.

Baptism places one in Christ.

Then Hitler was in Christ, you mean?…

That's what the passage declares.

Not at all. The passage says:

“For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” ( Galatians 3:27 )

The passage is talking about those among the baptized who were baptized INTO CHRIST, and not about all those who are simply baptized. Not all those who are baptized have clothed themselves with Christ. ONLY THOSE who were baptized INTO CHRIST have clothed themselves with Christ. So the passage declares that baptism is necessary IN Salvation. But it doesn’t say that it is necessary FOR Salvation. If that was the case, then the expression “into Christ” is meaningless.

By looking at other passages, it is agreed that baptism must be coupled with faith in the Lord, repentance from sins, and confession of Jesus as Lord. However, those other necessary things doesn't change what Galatians 3:27 says about baptism.

You keep using an equation for Salvation, like:

Baptism + faith + repentance + confession of Jesus as Lord + etc. = Salvation.

And that’s wrong! ONLY Jesus Christ can save you. Whatever you do, you cannot receive the forgiveness of your sins by something you do by yourself. Only God working in you your works can make you experience the peace of the forgiveness of your sins.

By the way, add to that equation “+ forgiving others”, because Jesus said that you can’t have the forgiveness of your sins if you don’t forgive others their sins… You clearly are in a big mistake. What you are preaching is another version of Salvation by works. If you keep that equation going, you will see how you will need to add an unlimited number of things to receive the forgiveness of your sins, because you will be trying to do by the flesh what only the Grace of God can do.

Okay, let's test your "faith alone" reasoning. Acts 2. The Holy Spirit came upon the 12 apostles just as the Lord promised.

Wrong! The Holy Spirit came on all those who were in the house:

“When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.
These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said” ( Acts 1:13-15 )

“When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.” ( Acts 2:1 )

Why did I do all this long comment about this little detail? Because I wanted to show you how much it is important to read the context carefully! You can’t conclude that the Holy Spirit only came on the Twelve.

Peter preached a sermon and concluded it by declaring Jesus to be both Lord and Christ (verse 36). Some of the Jews are convicted of their sins and ask the apostles what they should do, which implies/infers they believed the message (verse 37)? Therefore, they were saved at that moment, right? So, Peter responds and says, "Don't worry, you are saved by faith alone," right? Is that what Acts 2:38 says? If it isn't, then it is evident there is a problem with your reasoning.

What did Peter preach to them? Salvation by works? Or Salvation by faith, APART from works?

Friend, do you first know what “faith alone” means?? When you hear it, do you think we are talking about a dead faith?

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

The repentance God is looking for is prompted by godly sorrow per 2 Corinthians 7:10, and that sorrow is brought about by the Holy Spirit convicting sinners of their sins (John 16:8).

Baptism is "for the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38. The remission of sins is synonymous with being saved. Therefore, the idea is that baptism saves us - which is exactly the thought of 1 Peter 3:21.

Now, can you explain exactly the Scriptures that differentiate between "IN Salvation" versus "FOR Salvation?"

You are doing it all the time. You are quoting all the passages that mean baptism is necessary IN Salvation. If they meant that baptism is necessary FOR Salvation, then you would be contradicting yourself when you say that Salvation is TOTALLY the work of God.

I guess the reason I missed the point you are making is because it isn't in the text. Just like you've been reading "faith alone" into the other texts, now you are reading "the Holy Spirit does Not dwell in a heart that is not washed from sin into the text." Is that Peter's conclusion in verse 47. To me, that's the conveniently overlooked part of this wonderful story of converstion. Cornelius and his household were the first Gentiles to have the word of God preached to them.

Oh, no… I am discussing these things with someone who takes the texts as he wishes, without understanding them and without concentrating on what they say.

Did you notice the big error that you just did? Cornelius and his household were the first Gentiles to have the Word of God preached to them??? Then, what were all those Gentiles in the Old Testament to whom the Word of God was preached by the prophets? What is the story of the prophet Jonah with Nineveh? Who is the queen of Sheba? Oh, and many many others… AND, even in the New Testament times, who was the Ethiopian eunuch???… Anyway, it’s clear with what a background I am discussing these things…

Now, I have not inserted anything in the text. The text clearly says that the Holy Spirit came on the household of Cornelius BEFORE they were baptized. Other passages of the Bible clearly say that the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in a person before his heart is washed from sin. I don’t need to go in more details about this point before you tell me why the Holy Spirit could not come before Jesus went to His Father. Go ahead, explain.

The Spirit's arrival clearly let the Jews know that God was ready to receive the Gentiles. Nothing more. It's all the text suggests. The Jews there could not forbid the Gentiles from being baptized in the name of the Lord as the Jews were. As for where baptism fits into God's plan of salvation, other passages clearly describe it's role (e.g., Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-11).

Other passages, TWISTED by you, explain its role according to your wishes. In the example of Cornelius and his household, and in the example of the thief, and in the example of many others, we see that forgiveness of sins happened BEFORE and even WITHOUT baptism.

Okay, let's put this reasoning to the test. Salvation occurred at the cross. We don't have to do anything to receive it. There are no steps to follow.

I didn’t say this. I said you don’t add things that YOU DO together to have Salvation as a result. I said the exact opposite of what you said here. I said you receive that Salvation, and you don’t do it. God works in you what is pleasing to Him. You don’t do anything FOR Salvation. And THIS, my friend, is what Salvation by faith alone means.

Now, back to Acts 2 and verse 38. Does your reasoning match what Peter here tells the Jews to do to have their sins taken away? Obviously, it doesn't.

Obviously it does. But your twisted non-biblical understanding of what I am saying doesn’t apply to that text. I said you don’t do anything to receive that Salvation. You only believe. And that faith works through love. You don’t and can’t do it by yourself. You leave it on the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who ALREADY finished it on the cross.

Therefore, something is amiss. I don't have any reason to suspect Peter's response was in error, seeing that he was under the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit at this time. Therefore, I suspect we need to look elsewhere to figure out what is wrong.

So look in your misunderstandings of what I am saying.

The rest in the next reply, by God's Grace.

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Let me make sure I understand this right ... Acts 2:38 is supposed to teach salvation by "faith alone?" C'mon.

Yes.

Faith or belief isn't even mentioned in the text.

Read carefully. What is Peter telling those people? Is he telling them that Salvation is possible in any other than Jesus Christ? What is he talking about? Why does he talk about all that? What is he trying to make those people understand. What meant to them to get baptized.

A hint: Remember why John was baptizing. And remember why Jesus also was baptizing by the hand of His Apostles.

However, repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ are both "clearly" - no make that CLEARLY - commanded.

Yes, because that’s what faith alone is.

Let's consider the chronology of events in Acts 2. Jesus had already died on the cross some 51 days before, but the Jews there still did NOT have their sins removed. Some believed the message preached according to their response in verse 37, but their sins still had NOT been forgiven according to verse 38. Therefore, it should be rather obvious that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross didn't automatically take away their sins, nor were their sins forgiven at the point of faith "alone."

Can you please explain what you keep meaning by this “at the point of faith “alone””? It means NOTHING, my friend. There is not a point of faith alone. Faith works through love. It is not stagnant in the past. If you don’t have a living faith NOW, then there was no point where you were saved by faith alone.

Do you have no reasoning to offer that will harmonize with the text of Acts 2?

I don’t need human reasonings. Salvation is not possible by anything you do. The Bible is clear that Salvation cannot happen by anything humans may do. It’s all by what God did and does. It all finished on the cross. You can’t add anything to it. And Peter was saying exactly this. And THIS is what gave those people a living faith, and that living faith was obviously living: They all obeyed the commandment of the Lord Jesus.

I turn to Hebrews 11 (the whole chapter) for a good working definition of faith. James 2:14-26 is another text commonly overlooked and/or undermined.

James 2 is in the background of my thoughts in all the replies about living faith. And you are not being able to understand my point. So I wonder who is undermining that very precious passage of James…

I have a few questions. There would have been thousands of Jews in Jerusalem during the Pentecost in Acts 2. A command was given in verse 38 to the Jews who asked what they should do in response to their guilt for rejecting Jesus and crucifying Him. Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized in verse 38. Three thousand obeyed in verse 41. Therefore, who had faith: the 3,000 who obeyed the Lord, or the thousands of other Jews who didn't obey? What if some Jews that didn't obey still claimed the blessings promised in verse 38 ... would they have a legitimate claim to the blessings promised?

No one can have the blessings without repentance. How many times should we repeat that baptism without repentance means nothing? If others among that multitude got baptized, like Simon the magician in Acts 8, without real repentance, they also would not receive the blessings. Real baptism only happens by repentance. And, as I keep saying, baptism is a necessary part of Salvation. You can’t imagine someone repenting with real repentance, and then following a false god. He will certainly follow Jesus Christ. And that’s the meaning of baptism.

If we are agreed the 3,000 were faithful by doing as the Lord commanded, then wouldn't it mean they actually had to "do" what they were commanded?

Of course! If they didn’t obey the command, they would prove that they were not believing. But don’t forget also the fact that some of them may have got baptized without true faith, just as was the case with Simon the magician in Acts 8, and with many disciples of Jesus who were baptized but then Jesus said that they were not true believers.

(On the same note, consider the command of Acts 16:31. Are we in agreement the jailer and his household needed to obey the command in order to be saved?)

No, not IN ORDER to be saved, but because that’s what Salvation is. How can you be in Christ, and yet live in disobedience like the children of disobedience?

And, we are in agreement we need to do what the Lord says to do in order to be saved, does that mean salvation is "earned" (with Luke 17:10 also in mind)?

No, we don’t agree on the same definition of “doing what the Lord says to do”. Here is what the Lord really says to do:

“Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."” ( John 6:28-29 )

Notice their question: the workS of God.
Notice His answer: the work of God.

And what is that work? THAT YOU BELIEVE in Him whom He has sent. POINT. THIS is the work OF GOD.

So if you agree that all what we have to do is to admit that we are lost sinners who cannot do ANYTHING to save ourselves, and to rely on Christ alone for our Salvation, then we agree. ONLY this faith is an obedient faith that receives the true meaning of baptism.

Also, how does 1 Peter 1:22a fall into line with your reasoning?

Let me quote it:

“Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart” ( 1 Peter 1:22 )

Obedience is the obedient faith in the truth. This obedient faith purifies our souls, as I already explained in a previous reply. So what in this verse contradicts the biblical doctrine that I am telling you??

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

I agree. Abraham was justified by works - meaning by obedient faith. That's exactly why I brought up James 2:21 and connected it with Acts 2:38,41 ... inquiring about the difference between the 3,000 that were obedient and those that weren't. I am of the understanding that those who did NOT obey had no legitimate claim to the blessings promised. However, those that obeyed received the blessings (i.e., forgiveness of sins or salvation). Can we agree that we do what God says to be saved from our sins?

Yes, we believe ( = obey ) in Jesus Christ as our ONLY Lord and Savior. This is what it means to obey the truth. And this obedient faith ALONE justifies us.

Oooops. As previously discussed, you keep inserting the word "alone" whenever you see the word "faith." Acts 15:9 does NOT say the cleansing of the hearts happens by faith alone, rather it happens by faith. Granted, it is the living, repentant, obedient faith that pleases God, but that is understand by harmonizing what Acts 15:9 says along with other relevant passages (e.g., James 2:14-26, Acts 8:12, etc.), not by reading words into the text of Acts 15:9 that aren't there.

Friend… Do you understand the biblical doctrine of Salvation by faith alone? It doesn’t mean faith is alone in Salvation. It doesn’t mean you have a mind-faith, a head-faith, and that’s all. “Faith alone” means that Salvation is something that Christ finished on the cross, and that you only receive it; you don’t add anything to what Jesus did. You only receive it; and that Grace makes you ALIVE. In other words, your faith is alive, or else you are not alive yet. So don’t dream of a Salvation that doesn’t contain baptism and all obedience in it.

Sorry, but there's simply no logical way to declare that salvation is by "grace alone" in light of Titus 2:11 and Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23. The irony is that on one hand you declare that salvation is by grace alone, and on the other a person has to have the faith to receive that grace. Faith/belief is a command that must be obeyed per Acts 16:31.

“For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake” ( Philippians 1:29 )

Faith is granted to you. It is the Grace of God. That’s not irony. That’s one of the beautiful paradoxes of the Bible that show the great Wisdom and Love of our Savior God who could save fallen sinners like us who had NO hope for Salvation, totally dead as we were in our sins and unable to obey the truth.

Going back to Acts 2, you didn't answer my earlier question ... who was saved: those who obeyed the command given in verse 38 (i.e., the 3,000 in verse 41), or those that didn't obey? If the 3,000, then it is evident they weren't saved by grace alone, because they had to obey the command given in order to obtain the blessings promised.

Who can obey without the Grace of God?? Can you obey the commandments of God without being born again? If you say yes, then you are talking about self-righteousness in all your replies.

We all are sinners, and fall short of the glory of God. We can’t obey Him without His Grace saving us.

Originally Posted by - DRA -

As for grace, it has been extended to all people (Titus 2:11). However, since all won't be saved (Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23), salvation cannot be by grace alone. As for faith alone, it has been discussed several times previously in this post.



Orginally Posted by - DRA -

Really? Jesus baptized them in water? Are you sure? Note John 4:1. It says Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John. But, also note the next verse, which says,
NKJV (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples)
NASV (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)
NIV although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.
NRSV —although it was not Jesus himself but his disciples who baptized—



Agreed. They baptized in His name. I know what it means. However, you gave the impression Jesus Himself was doing the baptizing. Thanks for clarifying your reasoning.

But you didn’t comment on the important point: That many were baptized by Jesus ( by His Apostles ) , and yet they remained in their sins and later left Him.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[HumbleServant94]

No you don't need baptism to be saved. It is just a tradition to represent the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Well, we have seen that the Bible is the Word of God, and we have seen how JESUS Himself said that the Bible is the Word of God. Go here:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6398365&page=2

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

Please... You see what you want to see. We have not saw any such thing. Jesus said no such thing and the bible says no such thing. Do you really think that people are stupid enough to take yoru word for it when the very text you post does not say what you claim it says?

 

[Soul Searcher]

If what you say is true - baptism is not necessary to be saved - then it also must be true that a person can be saved without having their sins taken away (per Acts 2:38), washed away (per Acts 22:16), or being united with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection where one dies to sin, is freed from it, and becomes a new creature (per Romans 6:3-11). Can you explain how a sinner is saved from his/her sins while remaining in those sins? By the way, please give the short version - no "long winded responses" should be necessary, right?

Did Jesus forgive the Thief of the cross? Did he baptize him? How about the others where Jesus simply said your sins are forgiven. Was he lying to them? Did he make exceptions as he saw fit or is he in fact a fair and just Lord who offers forgiveness to those who seek to be forgiven?

Baptism is now and always was a ritual. It has nothing to do with forgiveness, salvation nor removal of sins.

 

[YAQUBOS]

No you don't need baptism to be saved. It is just a tradition to represent the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So can we dismiss baptism, and still be saved?

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Please... You see what you want to see. We have not saw any such thing. Jesus said no such thing and the bible says no such thing. Do you really think that people are stupid enough to take yoru word for it when the very text you post does not say what you claim it says?

Well, you are free to refuse to see it, but it's there, in the Bible.

All what anyone needs to do is to go to that thread and to judge by himself. It is really clear.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[Soul Searcher]

Well, you are free to refuse to see it, but it's there, in the Bible.

All what anyone needs to do is to go to that thread and to judge by himself. It is really clear.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

It has nothing to do with refusing to see. It is not there. Read it. It is no where in any bible. Not once, not at all. You make giant leaps stringing things together and then making wild claims and acting like it clearly says x when it really says y.

But then this is an old disagreement. It has became clear that you make it up as you go rather than admitting that no such text exists. Makes me think that I should just ignore anything you do say as facts do not seem to be of major importance to you.

 

[- DRA -]

And Jesus never said that baptism is necessary FOR Salvation, although He clearly said that baptism is necessary IN Salvation.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

Which passage(s) says or declares that baptism is necessary "IN Savation" versus "for salvation?"

 

[- DRA -]

...

“Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” ( Ephesians 1:2 )

From this “and” you can’t conclude that Jesus Christ is not God.

First off, I omitted the previous points you made on Post # 721 on Page 73 because you offered NO scriptural support for your conclusions. We are told to "speak as the oracles of God in 1 Peter 4:11a. It means to speak what God's word speaks. If you'd like to show us which passage(s) you had in mind for your conclusions, then we can discuss those particular passages.

As for the word "and" in Ephesians 1:2, it appears twice. "And" is a coordinating conjunction that connects equal parts. The first time the word "and" appears in Ephesians 1:2, it connects grace and peace. Both blessings were extended to the Ephesians. The second time "and" appears in the passage, it connects God the Father and the Lord Jesus. Both the Father and the Son extended grace and peace to the Ephesians. The meaning is not hard to understand, however please let me know if you need additional help with the passage.

Real baptism is not something ADDED to repentance. Baptism is the sign of repentance. No way to speak about them as separated things. It is not “repentance + baptism”, it is: “”baptism OF repentance”. Note the following carefully:

“and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.” ( Luke 24:47 )

“Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” ( Acts 2:38 )

As previously stated, Luke 24:47, Mark 16:15-16, and Matthew 28:19 are three different accounts of the Great Commission Jesus gave to the apostles. All three accounts are true - NOT just Luke's. Think of the principle taught in Matthew 2. In that chapter Jesus is presented as being born in Bethlehem, call out of Egypt, and yet still called a Nazarene. Which aspect is true? Obviously, they all are. Likewise, all three accounts of the great commission are true. Plus, there's another way to check your understanding of Luke 24:47. If your understanding is correct, then the conversions in the book of Acts should reveal the apostles taught repentance was all that was necessary for the remission of sins. Obviously, that is not what they taught. Therefore, the conclusion is that you have the wrong understanding of Luke 24:47.

Beg your pardon, but does Acts 2:38 say, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (NKJV)," or, "Receive the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins?" If the latter, please tell us what translation you are using.

“John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” ( Mark 1:4 )

It is a baptism OF repentance, and not repentance PLUS baptism.

John's baptism was indeed a baptism of repentance. It was commanded to prepare the Jewish people to receive their Messiah (i.e., the King promised through David). John's baptism is not the same as the baptism commanded "in the name of Jesus Christ," which is synonymous with the baptism "in the name of the Lord" found in other passages in Acts. To discern the difference between the baptism of John and the baptism commanded in the name of the Lord, one only has to spend a few minutes with Acts 8:24 - 9:5 to note the difference.

... Not at all! That verse doesn’t say that he had to be baptized TO wash away his sins. On the contrary, he is told to be baptized AND wash away his sins BY calling on the Name of the Lord ( the same “and” as above. )

Acts 22:16 - “Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.”

So you get baptized AND you wash away your sins BY calling on His Name.

As previously suggested, the sequence of events should be noted. After seeing Jesus on the road to Damascus and being blinded Saul, Saul was led into Damascus. For three days he was without sight and neither ate nor drank (Acts 9:9). Also, during that time period he prayed to God (latter part of 9:11). However, his sins were still not forgiven. When Ananias came to Saul, he told Saul what to do to have his sins washed away. Per Acts 9:18, Saul arose and was baptized. Therefore, just like the 3,000 in Acts 2:41 who obeyed what they were told to do to have their sins taken away, Saul obeyed and had his sins taken away. When he did so, he was "calling on the name of the Lord," that is, acting by the Lord's authority to have his sins washed away.

Do you mean that baptism contradicts the Word of God? Friend, baptism is not human words, but it is what GOD says to us. In his baptism, Paul didn’t himself SAY something to God, but GOD said something to him. [/QUOTE]

Not sure where this idea came from that baptism contradicts the word of God. It is a command of God under the gospel of Christ per passages such as Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, and Acts 22:16. By inference with Colossians 2:12 in mind, Paul indeed said something to God during his baptism. His statement was that he had faith in the working of God. The proof was that he did what God said. So, the question at hand is: "Would Saul have had his sins washed away if he hadn't obeyed what he was told to do in Acts 22:16?"

 

[- DRA -]

No you don't need baptism to be saved. It is just a tradition to represent the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Why was baptism commanded in Acts 2:38?
Why in Acts 22:16?
What occurs during baptism according to Romans 6:7?

Can you direct us to a passage that says baptism is a tradition to represent the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Why was baptism commanded in Acts 2:38?
Why in Acts 22:16?
What occurs during baptism according to Romans 6:7?

Can you direct us to a passage that says baptism is a tradition to represent the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Why is it that any passages offered to indicate baptism as a requirement come from Paul or the questionable section of Mark?

How was it that Jesus forgave sins without baptising people as he did so?

Why is it that when asked directly what must one do Jesus did not mention baptism?

The thing is either it is required or it is not and there are examples of people who were forgiven, healed and apparently saved and baptism is not mentioned at all in many if not most of these cases. There is only one logical conclusion.