Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

Blackmarch said:

Exactly and there are about only two things that symbolise his atonement the most (that one can think of); Baptism, and the sacrament (or the communion, as it is called in other sects).

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And neither is required for salvation.

Difference of opinion.

Sry its kinda long.................
"For it is by grace you are saved through faith and not of yourself, not by good works lest any man should bost."
Ephesians 2:8-9
God has given salvation as a gift, we acquire it by confessing with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and Savior, and believing in our heart that Christ died and rose again to wash away our sins. After we do so, God shows us his plan,"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Ephesians 2:10
When we become believers God's plan for us becomes our goal in life. As he wishes us to do good works, we must obey. Since God(Jesus) clearly stated that he wants us to be babtised, we, as believers, must obey.One cannot say that if a man gave his heart to the Lord and was only babtised 5 yrs later, that those 5 yrs that his heart was with the Lord, he was not a Christian. It is in obedience to God's commands that we are babtised. Our good works do not go unrewarded, God says that we will wear a number of crowns according to the good works we perform in His name. If we are not babtised, we will not be rewarded for it. There is no reason why we shouldnt be babtised, unless it is not by our choice or understanding.
~~~Longing to Live with the Lord~~~
>>>>>>>>>>Missionette<<<<<<<<<<
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have not read all of the replies to this thread but I wonder if anyone has presented this scripture:

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | John3:3 - 5)

jdpixler said:

I have not read all of the replies to this thread but I wonder if anyone has presented this scripture:

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | John3:3 - 5)

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Would you have any interest in knowing what "born again" means from a Judaic perspective?

m.d.

muffler dragon said:

Would you have any interest in knowing what "born again" means from a Judaic perspective?

m.d.

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Yes please.

apenman said:

Yes please.

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To be "born again" in a Judaic consideration is to perform teshuvah (repentance). Repentance, in Judaism, is to turn from the path that one is on to the Path of G-d (i.e. Torah observance or for a gentile - Noachide).

With all due respect, Christian baptism is not merely symbolic. It actually achieves something spiritually which is why it is declared throughout the New Testament to be an integral part of Christian initiation. The language of the Scriptures concerning Christian baptism is instrumental rather than representational. Christian baptism is not just like a bath, it is a bath (Titus.3:5); it is not just like a burial, it is a burial (Rom.6:1-14).

Christian baptism is that part of the initiation which deals with your past life as an unbeliever. By undergoing Christian baptism you are being spiritually separated from your former life in which you were dead in your trespasses and sins. The Hebrew understanding of what the Christian church refers to as a 'sacrament' (rather than the Greek/Latin understanding of 'an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace') is a physical act with a spiritual effect. If you don't undergo the physical act then you don't get the spiritual effect.

It is not enough to believe that a 'sacrament' is 'an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace' and therefore as long as one has the 'inward and spiritual grace' one can dispense with 'the outward and visible sign' (which is what invariably happens when one believes that Christian baptism is merely symbolic).

Christian baptism is commanded for all disciples who wish to spend the rest of their lives in the service of their Lord. To say that Baptism is not commanded by the Messiah (as some have done on this thread) is to deny that 'all Scripture is given by inspiration of God ('God breathed')...' (2Tim.3:16) since it is the same Messiah who, by his Spirit, through his apostles, went on to command all that is commanded within the New Testament (Jn.16:12-15) as well as the Old (Heb.13:8). The Messiah most certainly did command Christian baptism for all of his disciples (Matt.28:19-20).

For those such as the thief on the cross who were facing immanent death then baptism was not possible but in view of the fact that they were not going to get the opportunity to live the Christian life (for which the baptism of the Holy Spirit is given to enable the disciple to live the Christian life victoriously (having been liberated of his former life through his Christian baptism in water)) then for them Christian baptism is a moot point.

Not so for the rest of the disciples who have the opportunity to live a righteous life for God and fulfilling the good works which God has planned in advance that we should do [Christians are saved FOR good works (Eph.2:10; 2Tim.3:17), not by good works (Eph.2:8-9)].

See The Normal Christian Birth by Rev. David Pawson published by Hodder & Stoughton ISBN 0-340-48972-3 available online from www.anchor-recordings.com (UK) www.goodseed.org (USA) or your local Christian bookstore or public lending library.

Simonline.

Baptism is symbolic.

humdedumdedum................o hi! I wus babtised at age 10. it wus by my choice too. this is the verse that i use every time i see a thread like this:Ephesians 2:8-10,"For it is by grace that ye are saved through faith and that not yourself;it is a gift from God, not by good works lest any man should bost. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God has prepared for us in advance." Memorize that verse. I believe, as it says, that we are saved through our faith in the lord, but only by the grace of God. I remember when i wus a lot younger, my friend told me she had been babtised and that i wusnt a Christian bcus i hadnt been. She wus BOSTING! She had performed a good work that God prepared a long time b4 4 her to do. but she wus not saved by her good works, she wus saved thru her faith, by gods grace. I think that may be a perfect example of how we can only come to the Father thru accepting Jesus...not being babtised. But since god says we are to do good works, being babtised is in obedience to that command. Everyone sins, and all sins are looked upon equally forgivable by God. so if u arent babtised, u have sinned and will be forgiven. Some ppl r babtised just becus. many dont even understand wut they're doing and end up not geting anything out of babtism except wet hair! I knew wut i wus doing, i loved God and understood that being babtised was being obedient and it wus cleansing. So, NO, u dont have to be babtised to be a Christian, or to go to heaven.

Dear Simonline:

Are you aware that baptism is a Jewish consideration? Have you heard of Tevilah and/or Mikveh? Check them out sometime.

In Eph 1:19-23 we see how the mighty working of God raised Jesus from the dead. Then in Eph 2:1-10 we see how through the working of God that we were made alive with Christ. Let's look at this a little closer.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us it together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Now from these verses I want you note that it is through the working of God that we are quickened together with Christ being raised up together. The question is, how are we quickened with Christ or raised up with him? Lets let the bible give us that answer.

Col2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

What did the word of God just tell us? It just told us that when we were baptized that we were buried with him and that we were risen with Christ through the working of God. We also see in verse 13 that is was at the point of baptism that we were quickened together with Jesus and it was at that point that are sins were forgiven. These verses bring great clarity to Eph 2:8-9 because baptism into Christ is not a work of man but a work of God. Let us let the word of God tell us more from Rom 6.

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Wow the word of God is so clear. When did we die with Christ? It was at the point of baptism. When we are baptized into Christ we become a new creature and should walk in the newness of life. Check out how this goes right along with Eph 2:10. See also 2Cor 5:17. Notice in verse 5 that it is not until we are baptized that we get the promise of being in the likeness of his resurrection. Verse 6 again tells us that at the point of baptism our body of sin is destroyed and our sins are washed away just like Paul's. Acts 22:16. Verse 7 again tells us that when we died in baptism with Christ we were then freed from sin. Verse 8 again notice the conditional verse. If you died with Christ in baptism then we have the promise of being able to live with him. As far I can tell this is very clear and easy to understand.

So that there is not confusion I want you to understand that I believe that we are saved by Grace and faith. These are defiantly part of the salvation plan, but they are not the ONLY part of the salvation plan. Repentance, confessing Jesus as Lord and Baptism also save you. It is all these things working together. If you take one of them away you are not saved. I hope that you will reconsider your view and be buried with Christ in baptism today having your sins washed away and being raised up a new creature in Christ being added to the church by God which is Jesus body.

God Bless,

Cougan

Lets take a look at the thief on the cross. It is true that Jesus told the thief that he would be in paradise with him and I do not doubt that one bit. However, the thief on the cross cannot be used to show if baptism is necessary or not because the thief was under the old covenant and not the new covenant because Jesus had not died yet. Jesus was the mediator of a new and better covenant and it did not go into effect until he died (Heb. 8:6-7, Heb. 9:15-17). The new covenant made the old covenant obsolete (Heb. 8:13). In fact we are told the Jesus nailed the old law and its written requirements to the cross (Col. 2:14). So thief on the cross is not a new covenant example The only baptism the thief could have had was John’s baptism. We don’t know for sure if the thief had been baptized with John’s baptism or not, but it was possible (Mat. 3: 5-6). But, one thing is for sure he could not be baptized into Christ because Christ had not died yet.



Now when Jesus did die and was resurrected notice what he commanded his disciples to do. Matthew 28:19 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mark 16:15-16 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.



Jesus made it clear that his disciples were to go teach the lost and baptize them. Now Mark account get very specific on how one is saved he said they must believe and be baptized. This goes hand and hand with what Jesus told Nicodemus "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5).



Now Acts 2 marks the beginning of the church. Peter preaches a lesson to those Jews that day that changed some of the lives forever. Some of them were pricked in the heart and they asked the apostles what they should do. Peter following the command of Jesus did not hesitate telling them what they needed to do to be saved.



Acts 2:38 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Please notice that Peter is telling the Jews that they must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. We have seen so far that belief and baptism are equal with one another and repentance and baptism are equal with one another. Now notice what 3000 of those people did that day. Acts 2:41 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. So those who heard the word that day and accepted it were baptized and added to them. Vrs 46 tells us that it is God that adds us to his church and Paul tells us that it is at the point of baptism when God adds us to the church/body of Christ (1Cor. 12:13).



Now you gave Paul as an example of why baptism is not necessary for salvation. However, Paul talks a great deal about the subject of baptism and its importance. I have already given one example in 1Cor. 12:13. In trying to keep this brief I want to look at Paul’s conversion because I believe that it teaches a very important message. His conversion is recorded in Acts 9, 22, and 26.



Acts 9:3-6 3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" 5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."



Here we see the Paul encounters Jesus and he wanted to know who he was. Paul had no doubt heard the sect he was trying to destroy talking about Jesus and Jesus is telling him it that it hard to kick against the truth. Paul was humbled in the site of the Lord and now he believed that this was Jesus and was trembling before him. Notice he ask Jesus what he wants him to do. Jesus tells him to go wait in the city for those very instructions.



Acts 9:8-9 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.



Paul obeyed Jesus instruction and went to the city and he waited. Vrs 11 tells us that Paul was praying to God and that he had not ate or drank for 3 days. Now if anybody could have been saved by believing, repenting, praying, or confessing Jesus it would have been Paul. Had Paul entered into a saved condition having his sins removed at this point? To answer this lets look at this next verse in Paul’s conversion.



Acts 22:12-16 12 "Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 "came to me; and he stood and said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 "Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 'For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'



Ananias came and gave Paul the instructions he was waiting for and they were the same instructions that Peter gave in Acts 2. Notice he tells him to arize and be baptized and wash away your sins. Even though Paul had believed, confessed, repented and prayed he was not in saved condition he did not have his sins removed until he obeyed the instructions given by Ananias to be baptized. Again, we see the term baptized and the removal of sin tied together.



I want to show you some more examples of how Paul taught that one must be baptized to be saved. Please notice the following things that Paul states as being in Christ. 2Tim. 2:1 Grace 2Tim. 2:10 Salvation Eph. 1:3 Every spiritual blessing Eph. 1:7 Redemption and forgiveness of sin Rom. 8:1 No condemnation. Since all these things are found in Christ I think you would agree that we must be in Christ to be saved. Paul tells us how we get into Christ. Galatians 3:27 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Romans 6:3 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?



Paul makes it clear that one enters into Christ by being baptized. In fact when you read Romans 6: 1-11 and Col. 2:12-13 you will see Paul describes baptism as burial and the point that we are united with Christ in death having our old man crucified and having our sins forgiven.



Paul gives us yet another example of the importance of baptism. Paul teaches us that the church and Jesus body are one in the same (Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18). He also teaches us that Jesus is a savior of that one body (Eph. 5:23). Again, I think that you would agree that we need to be in the church/body of Christ to be saved. Paul teaches that it is at the point of baptism that one enters into the church/body of Christ (1Cor. 12:13).

The Salvation Army is a non-sacramental church. As such we do not baptise or hold communion services, though members are free to access these in other churches if they wish. Baptism is unnecessary for salvation. There is nothing we can do to assist God in His saving work. All is grace.

Abiel said:

The Salvation Army is a non-sacramental church. As such we do not baptise or hold communion services, though members are free to access these in other churches if they wish. Baptism is unnecessary for salvation. There is nothing we can do to assist God in His saving work. All is grace.

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First of all where is the salvation army found in the Bible? Where a denomations authorized in the Bible? They are not. Paul makes it very clear that we should be very careful of what we call ourselves and specifically condemns denomanations.
1 Corinthians 1:10Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Next you say you dont baptize and you dont take communion but I bet you give each week dont you?

Why would you give which is command 1Cor. 16:2 and then not partake of the Lords Supper which is a command Mat. 26:26-28, 1 Cor 11:23ff. Then we have the example of where the Lords supper is partook of ever single week.
Acts 20:7 7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

Did you know that Acts 20:7 and 1Cor. 16:2 are grammatically the same from the Greek so however decided to give you need to partake of Lords Supper the same way.

Now you say that you cannot assist God in your salvation. So what you are saying is that everybody is saved no matter who they are what they have done. Now I will say this their is absoultly nothing we can do to merit or earn our salvtion. It is only God that can save us but this does not mean that we dont play a part in our salvation because we must accept God gift of Grace and he tells us how. We must belive John 3:16, Repent, Luke 13:3, Confess Rom. 10:10 and be baptized Mk. 16:16. When do these things we are simply showing God that we are accepting his gift of Grace and in no way do these works merit our salvation.

If you are still not conviced that there are conditons in accepting God Grace then notice this passage.
James 4:6 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."

Notice this conditional statment. You cannot receive grace unless you are humble and being humble takes work. James adds this.
James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

I would highly recommend you go back to the Bible and not allow yourself to be swept away by the tradition of men.
Matthew 7:21 " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

When we come to the realization that all of salvation is from God as we could do nothing to assist, we will have such peace. Yes, baptism is so very important but does nothing to save. Yes, communion is so very important but does nothing to save. Just be so thankful that the Lord loves each and every one of us and all else will fall into place. Jesus will draw all men.

Eldy said:

When we come to the realization that all of salvation is from God as we could do nothing to assist, we will have such peace. Yes, baptism is so very important but does nothing to save. Yes, communion is so very important but does nothing to save. Just be so thankful that the Lord loves each and every one of us and all else will fall into place. Jesus will draw all men.

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Salvation only comes from God but we MUST accept the salvation by OBEYING his commands.

Luke 6:46 " But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?
John 14:15 " If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

In Romans 6 you see a beautiful pictrure of what happens during your baptism how you are buried with Christ and united with him and freed from sin. Then in this same context Paul says this.
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Surely you would agree that we must have the seal of the Holy Spirit to be saved. Now notice this verse
Acts 5:32 "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."

When is the Holy Spirit said to be given. Answer:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Notice you dont receive the gift of the HS until you have been baptized.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

You see the difference between me and you is that I actually go to the Word of God to make my points you just type away your opinion. Lets see which should we trust your word or God's word.

Now let me give you more example to show that man has alway played a part in receiving God free gift.
Joshua 6:2 And the LORD said to Joshua: "See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor. 3 "You shall march around the city, all you men of war; you shall go all around the city once. This you shall do six days. 4 "And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark. But the seventh day you shall march around the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets. 5 "It shall come to pass, when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, that all the people shall shout with a great shout; then the wall of the city will fall down flat. And the people shall go up every man straight before him."

Notice Jericho was a gift that they could not earn or merit however God wants them to accept this gift by walking around Jericho and then blowing the trumpet and so on.

Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.

Notice it was by faith but not just beliving it was an obedient faith because they could not receive the gift until they met the conditon of walking around and so on. God did the work they didnt do anything but follow his instructions and in no way earned or merited this gift. This pattern is repeated throughout the OT and the NT. Just because God provides us our salvation as a gift we still have our part in obeying him so that we can accept his gift of salvation.

The Bible is our authority and so I would suggest that if you want to make a coment do so from the Bible otherwize your words are just empty opinions.

cougan said:

Salvation only comes from God but we MUST accept the salvation by OBEYING his commands.

Luke 6:46 " But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?
John 14:15 " If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

In Romans 6 you see a beautiful pictrure of what happens during your baptism how you are buried with Christ and united with him and freed from sin. Then in this same context Paul says this.
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Surely you would agree that we must have the seal of the Holy Spirit to be saved. Now notice this verse
Acts 5:32 "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."

When is the Holy Spirit said to be given. Answer:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Notice you dont receive the gift of the HS until you have been baptized.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

You see the difference between me and you is that I actually go to the Word of God to make my points you just type away your opinion. Lets see which should we trust your word or God's word.

Now let me give you more example to show that man has alway played a part in receiving God free gift.
Joshua 6:2 And the LORD said to Joshua: "See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor. 3 "You shall march around the city, all you men of war; you shall go all around the city once. This you shall do six days. 4 "And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark. But the seventh day you shall march around the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets. 5 "It shall come to pass, when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when you hear the sound of the trumpet, that all the people shall shout with a great shout; then the wall of the city will fall down flat. And the people shall go up every man straight before him."

Notice Jericho was a gift that they could not earn or merit however God wants them to accept this gift by walking around Jericho and then blowing the trumpet and so on.

Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.

Notice it was by faith but not just beliving it was an obedient faith because they could not receive the gift until they met the conditon of walking around and so on. God did the work they didnt do anything but follow his instructions and in no way earned or merited this gift. This pattern is repeated throughout the OT and the NT. Just because God provides us our salvation as a gift we still have our part in obeying him so that we can accept his gift of salvation.

The Bible is our authority and so I would suggest that if you want to make a coment do so from the Bible otherwize your words are just empty opinions.

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I will take no offence at your words as I remember being in a place where my fingers typed out insults and slanderous statements so quickly. My words are from the Bible and from my God who is so much greater and wonderful then the common creeds wan't to give Him credit for. He is not limited like they want to have Him be. He is truly Love beyond what they try and make Him. Yes, all must accept Him but all will. All must come through Jesus to salvation and I am so amazed that He will bring all to that place.

Eldy said:

I will take no offence at your words as I remember being in a place where my fingers typed out insults and slanderous statements so quickly. My words are from the Bible and from my God who is so much greater and wonderful then the common creeds wan't to give Him credit for. He is not limited like they want to have Him be. He is truly Love beyond what they try and make Him. Yes, all must accept Him but all will. All must come through Jesus to salvation and I am so amazed that He will bring all to that place.

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Once again just words from your thoughts and not 1 SINGLE verse from GOD'S WORD.

Salvation only comes from God but we MUST accept the salvation by OBEYING his commands.

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And yet to fall to one aspect of the law is to fail at the entire thing. So no one obeys the commands, really. No one accepts, then. We're all hellbound. YAY! [/sarcasm]

Either God's sacrifice was sufficient, or it wasn't. There's no "it was but we have to..." It was or it wasn't, period and paragraph and book and end of printing press altogether.

(I believe good works are inevitable from salvation, but it is mockery to say they have anything to do with leading to or maintaining it... only God's work can do either).