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Is Astrology a science?

Is Astrology a science?

  • Astrology is a science.

  • Astrology is not a science.


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Diamond72

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The Shemites are real? Where did/do they live?
I use to use the Smiths Bible dictionary, but there are others.

Smith's Bible Dictionary
Shem
(name), the eldest son of Noah. (Genesis 5:32) He was 98 years old, married, and childless at the time of the flood. After it, he, with his father, brothers, sisters-in-law and wife, received the blessing of God, (Genesis 9:1) and entered into the covenant. With the help of his brother Japheth, he covered the nakedness of their father and received the first blessing. (Genesis 9:25-27) He died at the age of 630 years. The portion of the earth occupied by the descendants of Shem, (Genesis 10:21,31) begins at its northwestern extremity with Lydia, and includes Syria (Aram), Chaldaea (Arphaxad), parts Of Assyria (Asshur), of Persia (Elam), and of the Arabian peninsula (Joktan). Modern scholars have given the name of Shemitic or Semitic to the languages spoken by his real or supposed descendants. [HEBREW LANGUAGE]

There were two languages at the time. The Phoenician and the Semitic. This is where we get hooked on Phonics from. Noah's descendants were Semitic.
 
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Diamond72

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O wow, didn't know that! Animals have DNA! Shocking!
Before DNA people and animals had a pedigree. We had a pedigree dog that got pregnant but we could not register her because the daddy did not have pedigree papers.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I use to use the Smiths Bible dictionary, but there are others.

Smith's Bible Dictionary
Shem
(name), the eldest son of Noah. (Genesis 5:32) He was 98 years old, married, and childless at the time of the flood. After it, he, with his father, brothers, sisters-in-law and wife, received the blessing of God, (Genesis 9:1) and entered into the covenant. With the help of his brother Japheth, he covered the nakedness of their father and received the first blessing. (Genesis 9:25-27) He died at the age of 630 years. The portion of the earth occupied by the descendants of Shem, (Genesis 10:21,31) begins at its northwestern extremity with Lydia, and includes Syria (Aram), Chaldaea (Arphaxad), parts Of Assyria (Asshur), of Persia (Elam), and of the Arabian peninsula (Joktan). Modern scholars have given the name of Shemitic or Semitic to the languages spoken by his real or supposed descendants. [HEBREW LANGUAGE]
O great, just someone trying to turn the bible in to history.
There were two languages at the time.
Oh boy. Learn some historical linguistics.
The Phoenician and the Semitic.
Phoenician *is* a Semitic language. The Phoenicians are likely just Canaanites, just like the Israelites.
This is where we get hooked on Phonics from.
Hooked on Phonics is a 20th century American educational product.
Noah's descendants were Semitic.
I thought all humans were alleged descendants of Noah. Please pick a claim.
 
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Diamond72

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What about tomatoes, potatoes, maize ("corn")? Do those spread out from the middle east to Europe? (Let me help you. They don't. They are from the Americas and traveled to Europe after Columbus.)
There are MANY Edens. There are also many Eves. Bryan Sykes The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science That Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry talks about 7 of them but we now know that there were 19. Based on the Mitochondrial DNA. Men go by the Y Chromosome DNA and there were just as many "Adams".

The difference with Adam and Eve in the Bible is they lived at the same time. All the other Adam and Eve's did not live at the same time. Most likely Adam like Abraham married his Half Sister on his mom's side. That way they would share the same Mitochondrial DNA. Because they shared the same mother. Genesis 2:23 "Now this is bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh".

Time magazine or Science Adam and Eve did not life at the same time. We read about them in Genesis chapter one.
 
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Diamond72

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I thought all humans were alleged descendants of Noah. Please pick a claim.
The Gentiles did not descend from Noah or Abraham. We are a wild branch grafted into the tree. Romans 11:17 "If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root",

Jesus called the gentiles dogs: Matthew15:16 Jesus replied, "It isn't right to take food away from children and feed it to dogs." Matthew 15:24 “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” This is why the disciples were so surprised that the Gentiles were able to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:45 "The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles."

This is rapidly becoming an exact science. I ran the DNA on my son and they are giving him information on his cousins. He just told me today that he has a lot of cousins from my grandmother who was raised in KY. Her father owned a store there so he was well-established in the community.

I like Science because Science helps us to better understand our Bible. It is another tool for us to use. Or some people say a key to unlocking hidden understanding and knowledge.
 
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Hans Blaster

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There are MANY Edens. There are also many Eves. Bryan Sykes The Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science That Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry talks about 7 of them but we now know that there were 19. Based on the Mitochondrial DNA. Men go by the Y Chromosome DNA and there were just as many "Adams".

What?!?!?!?

First, these "Eves" and "Adams" are just labels for MRCA (most recent common ancestors) of various genetic lineages which are themselves descended from earlier MRCA for all. They are not the people in the bible. They are not independently created which is clear if you actually read Sykes book.

The difference with Adam and Eve in the Bible is they lived at the same time. All the other Adam and Eve's did not live at the same time. Most likely Adam like Abraham married his Half Sister on his mom's side.
Have you actually read Genesis? Adam doesn't have a Half-sister or mom. He has a female rib-clone as a wife. (So 0 genetic diversity implied.)

That way they would share the same Mitochondrial DNA. Because they shared the same mother. Genesis 2:23 "Now this is bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh".

Time magazine or Science Adam and Eve did not life at the same time. We read about them in Genesis chapter one.
The "science Adam" and the "biblical Adam" are completely incompatible.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The Gentiles did not descend from Noah or Abraham.
That is not logically possible from the biblical perspective. According to the bible, *EVERYONE* but the sons of Noah died in the flood, so *everyone* must be descended from Noah in that view. (This of course, does not match the reality of population genetics as there is evidence *counter* to the idea that just 5 persons are ancestral to all humans after a flood. (Noah, his wife and his three daughters-in-law)

We are a wild branch grafted into the tree. Romans 11:17 "If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root",
This is backwards, the Israelites/Hebrews are a small branch in the larger tree of humanity, even just of the non-African part of humanity.
 
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sjastro

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What?!?!?!?

First, these "Eves" and "Adams" are just labels for MRCA (most recent common ancestors) of various genetic lineages which are themselves descended from earlier MRCA for all. They are not the people in the bible. They are not independently created which is clear if you actually read Sykes book.


Have you actually read Genesis? Adam doesn't have a Half-sister or mom. He has a female rib-clone as a wife. (So 0 genetic diversity implied.)


The "science Adam" and the "biblical Adam" are completely incompatible.
AV has met his match.
 
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AV1611VET

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Genesis chapter one talks about beginnings and Genesis chapter two talks about Neshamah or the breath of life. We also see the use of the word field before Adam and Eve. We know a field is cultivated land.

Are you assuming Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are two different creation stories?

If so, you're wrong.

Genesis 2 is a frame story: a story within a story.

Here are Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 in chronological order:


Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27a So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18 ¶ And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 ¶ Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
 
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Tuur

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I'm puzzled how it's not obvious that if submerged
a glacier would float.
Because we don't know all the factors. You're saying that a glacier would float regardless to whether it's adhered to the ground beneath it (and adhesion is an open question as well). In short, you're saying there will be a point where the difference in density would overcome adhesion. Perhaps. Or perhaps it would exceed the tensile strength of ice with the result of shearing of the ice cap itself. Or perhaps not. There's more at work here than a simple difference in densities.

Since you mentioned a 55 gallon drum. an experiment would be to allow water to freeze in the bottom of the drum, then fill the drum with water and see if the layer at the bottom floats, and, if so, how long it takes. Or...

Here's a proposed experiment. It requires a disposable cup or container, both that are exact cylinders or are flared at the top, some sandpaper, and water chilled to just above freezing. Roughen the inside bottom of the container with the sandpaper, pour in enough water to make a small layer at the bottom, then put in a freezer. Take water and put it in container and put it in a refrigerator. Wait overnight. The next day, with our icebox "glacier" still in the freezer, gently pour the chilled water over the top. The amount of water added must exceed the depth of the layer of the ice by at least 1%, preferably more. Then see what happens.

An alternative is to let our experimental "glacier" sit outside overnight in freezing temperatures, then pour the chilled water on top.

Note: I'm thinking the water poured on top has to exceed the depth of the layer of ice by 1% to rule out not adding enough water. Many times I've poured water for animals on top of the ice in their trough or bowls, and it wasn't enough to make the ice below float, maybe because the water I added wasn't enough to overcome adhesion. I haven't used this as an example of water on top of ice because I'm thinking it could be something different.
 
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Astrid

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Because we don't know all the factors. You're saying that a glacier would float regardless to whether it's adhered to the ground beneath it (and adhesion is an open question as well). In short, you're saying there will be a point where the difference in density would overcome adhesion. Perhaps. Or perhaps it would exceed the tensile strength of ice with the result of shearing of the ice cap itself. Or perhaps not. There's more at work here than a simple difference in densities.

Since you mentioned a 55 gallon drum. an experiment would be to allow water to freeze in the bottom of the drum, then fill the drum with water and see if the layer at the bottom floats, and, if so, how long it takes. Or...

Here's a proposed experiment. It requires a disposable cup or container, both that are exact cylinders or are flared at the top, some sandpaper, and water chilled to just above freezing. Roughen the inside bottom of the container with the sandpaper, pour in enough water to make a small layer at the bottom, then put in a freezer. Take water and put it in container and put it in a refrigerator. Wait overnight. The next day, with our icebox "glacier" still in the freezer, gently pour the chilled water over the top. The amount of water added must exceed the depth of the layer of the ice by at least 1%, preferably more. Then see what happens.

An alternative is to let our experimental "glacier" sit outside overnight in freezing temperatures, then pour the chilled water on top.

Note: I'm thinking the water poured on top has to exceed the depth of the layer of ice by 1% to rule out not adding enough water. Many times I've poured water for animals on top of the ice in their trough or bowls, and it wasn't enough to make the ice below float, maybe because the water I added wasn't enough to overcome adhesion. I haven't used this as an example of water on top of ice because I'm thinking it could be something different.
Seems like you've got a combo of trying too
hard and not trying hard enough.

Good that you get it that things need depth
of water in order to float.

But I think you you are trying too hard to
defend the indefensible, that being a story
that is readily disproved a thousand other
ways. Even your noted gappist knows all
data is wholly inconsistent with a flood-
but has God miracle all evidence of a
"Flood" to look as if it didn't happen.

It makes a kind of weird sense; proof of God
kind of eliminates a need for faith.

Your experiments to discover an Unknown
factor, an undiscovered power of ice adhesion,
I mean, seriously?

Glaciers are not even stuck down!
They move. You can see rock they slid over
in Central Park NYC and a million other
places.
It's basically a huge ice cube sitting there on the
ground, sliding downhill.
You are proposing that a certain size ice
loses buoyancy? Like it becomes more dense
than water? You do know that water / ice
is incompressible?
When chunks of glaciers break of into the water,
they float.
No "unknown factor" makes them sink.
You seem trying too hard to make the story float!

And not hard enough to see what would
happen. Engineers can figure stresses
or whether a battleship is too dense to float.
Do a little engineering. This is not ice
frozen into a bowl. Of course a little
water on top of that wont float it
Do a relevant experiment with a chunk of ice
a the ground, unconfined. Flood the area and see
ifn it floats.

I asked you to figure the buoyancy, the upward
force exceeding the weight, of ice five miles
thick.
It's going to be about 8% more than the weight
of the ice.
Try calculating the lift excerted on one square foot.

In the absence of any strange unknown factors
and the very well known physics involved, is there
any reasonable way to deny that ice floats?
 
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Diamond72

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Are you assuming Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are two different creation stories?
Chapter one is the first week, chapter two is the second week. A day is 1,000 years. Adam was told in Genesis 2:7 " in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." We know that Adam died at the age of 930 years. (Genesis 5:5) Some people believe Adam gave 70 years to David. Still, clearly a day is 1,000 years.

In verse 2 we are told: "The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.". This is exactly the condition of the earth 12,700 years ago. Job Isaiah and Jeremiah all talk about this.
Jeremiah 4:23
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

This lines up with the Jewish year 5783. If you add 7000 years you get 12,783.
 
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Astrid

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For doubt, there's the aforementioned Carolina Bays. These are depressions in the Eastern US that tend to become swampy and seem to follow a pattern, but there doesn't seem to be a cause that's clearly understood. For misinterpretation, anything. To use an example from the state of Georgia, about midway in the state you can find boulders sitting in fields. "Aha!" some geologists said. "That shows there were glaciers there at one time, and the marks on these boulders prove it." Except it turned out the marks were due to logging chains being attached to them, and the glacier theory was dropped. That the boulders are there is clear for all to see. How they got there is the point of interpretation.

This actually is a good point to get back to the original post. Constellations can serve as a handy calendar in the sky, and people observed that the Nile flooded at the certain time of year, or that when a certain constellation rose that killing frosts were past. "Aha!" said the ancients. "The stars must influence these events." Add in worship of the stars and planets, and you have astrology. But coincidence isn't causation, and the coincidence of a constellation rising at planting time was simply that: a coincidence. Yet the stars are there for all to see, and ideal planting times as well. Astrology was the interpretation. Just it happened to be wrong.

This also leads us to the answer to the question posed in the original post. Science is a method of inquiry, and can be summed up in two words: "Prove it." Other than opposing in on religious grounds, astrology was unchallenged as a hypothesis until the advent of the scientific method. Science thrives on the "That's interesting" moments when hypothesis or theory doesn't match observation, which is why science can and does change.

Since science can and does change, what was once accepted interpretation of what we see around us can change as well. Sometimes it's a tweak. Sometimes it's a completely new way of interpreting things.
I kind of doubt the thing about
geologists thinking there were glacial
erratics in Georgia. That would be really
really stupid and sloppy.

There are, yes, formations so complex
as to not be so far fully explained.

Doubt, though, or change on the basics
of geology like oh there must have been a
world wide flood after all coz unknown factors
kept Greenland or Antarctic ice from floating
4000 years ago even though it floats fine now-
not so much.
 
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Diamond72

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According to the bible, *EVERYONE* but the sons of Noah died in the flood,
Clearly everyone did not die in Noah's flood. Just what was in the Garden of Eden was preserved on the Ark. We see this at the beginning of the story of Noah in Genesis chapter 6:

Corruption on the Earth
1Now when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose. 3So the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days shall be 120 years."
4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and afterward as well—when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men. And they bore them children who became the mighty men of old, men of renown.

I am not going to try to explain what the "Nephilim" was. But they clearly were not "everyone" on the earth as you suggest. You do not even give me a scripture reference for the word: "everyone" so we have nothing to work with until you want to tell me what your reference is. What scripture are you talking about?
 
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Diamond72

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O great, just someone trying to turn the bible in to history.
The Bible is Bible, Science is Science, and History is History. Three different classes. Three different books. The History book we used in High School was written by James Breasted in 1916 and revised in 1935. Called ancient time - A History of the World. Most of what we read in his book we can find on Wiki today.

The Bible, Science (Biology Geology, Botney) and History all agree. There is no conflict, there is no problem. No one has ever shown me a conflict. Moses and Abraham were both very well educated in their day. When Moses came before Pharaoh they both had the same education. They both had been to the same school. Moses was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter.

Exodus 2:10 "When the child had grown older, she brought him to Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became her son. She named him Mosesb and explained, “I drew him out of the water.”
 
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Diamond72

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Oh boy. Learn some historical linguistics.
I am studing Hebrew on YouTube from the Hasidic Rabbi. That helps me to better understand the Bible when I study the language that the Bible is written in.
 
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I am studing Hebrew on YouTube from the Hasidic Rabbi. That helps me to better understand the Bible when I study the language that the Bible is written in.

Ask your Hasidic Rabbi if Moses crossed the Red Sea to escape Egypt; or what the Tabernacle in the Wilderness was made out of.
 
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