Is assurance of salvation possible?

[FreeGrace2]

Knew I'd get a response like that.

Ok hypothetically IF we could take the Mark if the Beast tell me which premise do you believe?

Your trick question goes up in smoke since Jesus was clear about the outcome (EFFECT) of having eternal life in John 10:28.

They shall never perish. Yet Rev says those who take the mark WILL perish. Why isn't it obvious to you that from what Jesus said, NO believer will take the mark?

The real question, instead of your trick one, is where does the Bible indicate that believers are going to take the mark? So the assumption is simply speculative.

Because of what Jesus said, and John wrote about the mark of the beast, there is NO WAY any believer will take the mark. There will be a lot of martyrs though.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is a cop out. If you took the mark of the beast while saved, where is your destination?

Why are you so intent on trying to make the Bible contradict itself?

Why not instead just believe what Jesus said about recipients of etenral life in John 10:28?

 

[Invalidusername]

We don't "try". We DO. Unlike the OSNAS ilk.


You're kidding me, right? How come the 2nd verse in your long list is John 10:28??

That verse is the SINGLE MOST DIRECT AND CLEAR VERSE in the Bible on eternal security. How come you list it as a verse supporting losing salvation??

Here's a color coded explanation of John 10:28, just so you can follow my points more easily and not get distracted.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish,"

Here, Jesus speaks of both the CAUSE and EFFECT of having or possessing eternal life.

So, the red words teach us the CAUSE of having eternal life, which is Jesus Christ. He is the CAUSE of anyone who possesses eternal life, because He is the One who gives it.

The blue words teach us the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is never perishing.

Did you notice any list of conditions that recipients of eternal life must meet in order to have the EFFECT of possessing eternal life between the red words and the blue words?

No, there are none. If there were any such conditions, Jesus would have HAD to include them in that verse.

So, if salvation can be lost, then what Jesus said would be a LIE.

Is that all you're trying to do here, an attempt to prove that Jesus was a LIAR??

You should know better than that.

So, now that you have an explanation, color coded no less, of what Jesus was teaching in John 10:28, I invite you to address my points and prove that He wasn't teaching either the CAUSE or the EFFECT of having eternal life.

But, just to be clear, so far, I've met no one who has been able to do that.

Keep in mind what the verse is about; it is about HAVING or POSSESSING eternal life, and Jesus teaches us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

Sigh clearly that was a misplaced verse. Why the hell are you looking at one misplaced verse when there's 82 more?

Actually just realized that I linked you to the wrong website, I will pull up the other one.

 

[Invalidusername]

Why are you so intent on trying to make the Bible contradict itself?

Why not instead just believe what Jesus said about recipients of etenral life in John 10:28?

If I give you a ticket to the Cubs baseball game, you currently have access to the game. However before game day arrives if you flush the ticket down the toilet, will you be able to enter the game? If you throw the ticket in a fireplace, will you be able to enter the game?

Yes when you believe you receive eternal life. Now here's a little color coding of my own.

Colossians 1:21-23

"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."

Hebrews 3:6

"But Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope."

 

[Invalidusername]

Once Saved, Always Saved?

If you skim down to the middle of the writing, there's a plethora of verses on losing salvation. This was the one I intended on linking you to in the first place but accidentally linked you to the wrong one.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Unfortunately, it's not rare at all. It's all over the place, including this thread.

No, it’s rare. OSASers think anyone who recognizes the command to love God because we are told to is working for salvation. Therefore you see it where it is not. This is likely because there are only two views for most OSASers, Do nothing faith and do everything faith.

Some place their salvati0on works at the front, where they earn initial salvation, others put them more in the rear where they claim they maintain salvation by their works, and some want both to be the case.

Who? So far I don’t see anyone identifying with either of these.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I would never presume how anyone else would answer questions to me.


#1 is unbiblical because the Bible is clear that those who take the mark of the beast will end up in hell.
#2 is biblical because born again believers won't take it.
#3 is also correct, in that no believer will take it.


I don't understand your explanation of #2. How does not taking the mark "nullify your belief in eternal security"?


This is my belief on the issue of the mark of the beast. By the time that rolls around, all the unfaithful, disobedient believers will have died the "sin unto death", which I believe is part of God's discipline towards His children. Therefore, the believers who are left are faithful to Jesus. They won't take the mark, and they WILL become martyrs of the faith.


Of course Peter denied he knew Jesus. Did he lose salvation? No.

btw, I asked you to define what you mean by "hyper grace" in post #346.

Your god is way too small and petty. The real One has patience.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That's quite the imaginative accusation.

It’s the truth. OsSers never understand those who don’t accept their theology. Haven’t met one yet who could actually express what we believe. Even when we explain they don’t get it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If you mean that OSAS people realize that we can't work our way into good standing with God or maintain that standing by our own works, then yes, that would be the case.

In direct defiance of “ without holiness shall no man see God” or “blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.” You think it doesn’t matter to God or man how badly you treat others.

That said, the accusation is that OSAS people only think that way so we can live massively sinful lifestyles, which is nothing but a strawman argument, and a slanderous lie.

There are believers here who did just that. And the theology supports this 100%.

Born again people have the Spirit within us, and we seek lifestyles consistent with the desires of the Spirit.

Ah but you believe you have that Spirit no matter what sin you do.
What you do to others doesn’t matter to God.

But when we do sin, we also know we have forgiveness that we don't have to seek to earn over and over.

License to sin over and over just knowing you’re forgiven before you lie or steal or cheat or worse. Doesn’t matter to OSASers.

An overtly sinful lifestyle is a great indication of the lack of the Spirit and salvation, OSAS-believing or not.

Doesnt mean the person didn’t once have the Spirit, something you have to deny.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sigh clearly that was a misplaced verse. Why the hell are you looking at one misplaced verse when there's 82 more?

Because none of the rest speak in plain language about losing salvation.

Actually just realized that I linked you to the wrong website, I will pull up the other one.

OK. But I've already seen all the proof texts for supposed loss of salvation.

And don't forget to address my color coded explanation of John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Why are you so intent on trying to make the Bible contradict itself?

Why not instead just believe what Jesus said about recipients of etenral life in John 10:28?"

If I give you a ticket to the Cubs baseball game, you currently have access to the game. However before game day arrives if you flush the ticket down the toilet, will you be able to enter the game?

No offense, but a real dumb attempt at analogy. But then, you haven't bothered with my color coded explanation of John 10:28 either.

The problem with your attempt is that it fails to equate.

The Bible teaches that "whoever believes HAS (that means currently possesses) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Your attempt suggests that one only has a "ticket" to heaven, which can be lost, misplaced, revoked, removed, etc, blah, blah blah. All without any Scripture to back up such an opinion.

I believe the Bible, which says that those who believe actually possess eternal life, which is God's life. And since Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish, your example fails miserably.

If you throw the ticket in a fireplace, will you be able to enter the game?

Another failed and miserable attempt.

Yes when you believe you receive eternal life.

No, you completely FAIL to understand me. I KNOW that I POSSESS eternal life.

That I will receive it someday.

Now here's a little color coding of my own.

Colossians 1:21-23

"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."

Just coloring some words in a text proves and means nothing at all.

What do the green words mean?

I'll tell YOU what they mean. They are part of a conditional statement; you know, one of those "IF...., THEN...." kind of statements.

However, Paul reversed the order by giving the "THEN..." part before the "IF..." part.

So, here is the conditional statement the way we usually state it:
"IF indeed you continue in the faith, (THEN) He (by having reconciled by His death), can present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him."

What doesn't appear anywhere in that context is any mention of losing salvation.

Hebrews 3:6

"But Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope."

OK, again, what do the green words mean? You give no explanation, as if I can read your mind.

If you are going to color code verses, at least provide an explanation of what the colors mean, as I did with John 10:28 and you keep ignoring.

This is another "IF...., THEN...." kind of statement.

So, let's put it together:

If indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope, (THEN) we are His house." Ta-Da!

Now to explain what 'hope' means in the Greek. It means "confident expectation". It sure doesn't mean the way we use it today in our culture, as in "I wish it to be true".

Another Greek explanation: what does "hold fast" mean? It means to POSSESS. And the possession of salvation or eternal life isn't like ANY inanimate object, that CAN be lost, misplaced, forfeited, revoked, or even stolen. So let's NOT go down that stupid road.

So, what's Paul saying? That those who POSSESS a confident expectation (of salvation, obviously) ARE His house.

You are zero for 2.

Now, would you please do me the favor of addressing my color coded explanation of John 10:28, as I have done for your colored non-explanation of of verses?

Thanks.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Also I suggest you guys ignore Dorothy Mae. Her heart is full of hate and malice. Not worth it to debate with her, especially since she has no scripture support at all for her premise. I have more respect for OSAS people since they actually try to use scripture.

Nonsense. I give you scripture and you ignore it. You just employ the ad hominem arguement cause that is all that is left. Your dislike of me is very personal.

So here's some verses for loss of salvation for you OSAS folks. 83 of them specifically.

What Does the Bible Say About Losing Your Salvation?

I am surprised you can have respect for people who are responsible for you losing your salvation. You seem to blame God but not those who told you untruths about your salvation.

 

[Invalidusername]

I said:
"Why are you so intent on trying to make the Bible contradict itself?

Why not instead just believe what Jesus said about recipients of etenral life in John 10:28?"

No offense, but a real dumb attempt at analogy. But then, you haven't bothered with my color coded explanation of John 10:28 either.

The problem with your attempt is that it fails to equate.

The Bible teaches that "whoever believes HAS (that means currently possesses) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Your attempt suggests that one only has a "ticket" to heaven, which can be lost, misplaced, revoked, removed, etc, blah, blah blah. All without any Scripture to back up such an opinion.

I believe the Bible, which says that those who believe actually possess eternal life, which is God's life. And since Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish, your example fails miserably.


Another failed and miserable attempt.


No, you completely FAIL to understand me. I KNOW that I POSSESS eternal life.

That I will receive it someday.


Just coloring some words in a text proves and means nothing at all.

What do the green words mean?

I'll tell YOU what they mean. They are part of a conditional statement; you know, one of those "IF...., THEN...." kind of statements.

However, Paul reversed the order by giving the "THEN..." part before the "IF..." part.

So, here is the conditional statement the way we usually state it:
"IF indeed you continue in the faith, (THEN) He (by having reconciled by His death), can present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him."

What doesn't appear anywhere in that context is any mention of losing salvation.


OK, again, what do the green words mean? You give no explanation, as if I can read your mind.

If you are going to color code verses, at least provide an explanation of what the colors mean, as I did with John 10:28 and you keep ignoring.

This is another "IF...., THEN...." kind of statement.

So, let's put it together:

If indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope, (THEN) we are His house." Ta-Da!

Now to explain what 'hope' means in the Greek. It means "confident expectation". It sure doesn't mean the way we use it today in our culture, as in "I wish it to be true".

Another Greek explanation: what does "hold fast" mean? It means to POSSESS. And the possession of salvation or eternal life isn't like ANY inanimate object, that CAN be lost, misplaced, forfeited, revoked, or even stolen. So let's NOT go down that stupid road.

So, what's Paul saying? That those who POSSESS a confident expectation (of salvation, obviously) ARE His house.

You are zero for 2.

Now, would you please do me the favor of addressing my color coded explanation of John 10:28, as I have done for your colored non-explanation of of verses?

Thanks.

So first of all, there is no need for explanation to the color coded because you are correct that you do possess eternal life. HOWEVER the Bible makes it perfectly clear that you MUST REMAIN TO THE END. If you do not, you fall away. Hebrews 6, 2 Peter 2:19-22, and Hebrews 10:29-31

All you've managed to do is insult me and make me lose all respect for you as a human being.

 

[SeventyOne]

No, it’s rare. OSASers think anyone who recognizes the command to love God because we are told to is working for salvation. Therefore you see it where it is not. This is likely because there are only two views for most OSASers, Do nothing faith and do everything faith.Who? So far I don’t see anyone identifying with either of these.

You actually think OSAS people don't love God and each other? That's not working for salvation, that's just the natural order of those who have His Spirit. Do you love OSAS people?

And who on here is a works-salvationist, Everyone who is making the claim we have to do anything to maintain our salvation. If you think you can lose it through any of your actions, you believe the false works-salvation gospel. Again, the only difference between all of you is the type and timing of those works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Once Saved, Always Saved?

If you skim down to the middle of the writing, there's a plethora of verses on losing salvation. This was the one I intended on linking you to in the first place but accidentally linked you to the wrong one.

Ho, hum. Yep. Seen then all. Many are about inheritance, many are about falling away.

First, to "fall away" is about losing faith, NOT salvation. Those who assume they are equivalent are in serious error.

Second, the Bible presents 2 kinds or types of inheritance. One is guaranteed, on the basis of being a child of God (eternal security), from Rom 8:17a.

The other 'inheritance' is conditioned on "sharing in the sufferings of Christ" in order to "share in His glory".

So, what does it mean to "share in His sufferings"? It means to endure in the faith.

And what does it mean to "share in His glory"? It means to reign with Him when He returns as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

And guess what! Paul repeated himself in 2 Tim 2:12, but used different words.

Rom 8:17 - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

Now for the color coded explanation for clarity.

The red words indicate our permanent inheritance as children of God.
The blue words indicate our conditional inheritance based on the following:
The green words indicate the same thing: suffering for Christ is enduring.
The purple words indicate the same thing: sharing in His glory IS reigning with Him.

Now, you are free to unpack my explanation and try to prove that these 2 verses don't say the same thing, and are not equivalent.

Oh, and, btw, please explain what these 2 verses actually do say.

One more thing; the black words. This is what happens to those who fail to endure, or share in His suffering; they will be denied the privilege of reigning with Him.

iow, it will be a reward for faithful (enduring) believers to reign with Christ.

The unfaithful not enduring believers will be IN the kingdom, but not reign with Christ IN the kingdom.

 

[SeventyOne]

It’s the truth. OsSers never understand those who don’t accept their theology. Haven’t met one yet who could actually express what we believe. Even when we explain they don’t get it.

Oh, I get it. "Don't do bad stuff or you're going to hell, because your faith and trust alone are worthless."

Does that about sum it up?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It’s the truth. OsSers never understand those who don’t accept their theology. Haven’t met one yet who could actually express what we believe. Even when we explain they don’t get it.

Probably because it just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Invalidusername]

Ho, hum. Yep. Seen then all. Many are about inheritance, many are about falling away.

First, to "fall away" is about losing faith, NOT salvation. Those who assume they are equivalent are in serious error.

Second, the Bible presents 2 kinds or types of inheritance. One is guaranteed, on the basis of being a child of God (eternal security), from Rom 8:17a.

The other 'inheritance' is conditioned on "sharing in the sufferings of Christ" in order to "share in His glory".

So, what does it mean to "share in His sufferings"? It means to endure in the faith.

And what does it mean to "share in His glory"? It means to reign with Him when He returns as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

And guess what! Paul repeated himself in 2 Tim 2:12, but used different words.

Rom 8:17 - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;

Now for the color coded explanation for clarity.

The red words indicate our permanent inheritance as children of God.
The blue words indicate our conditional inheritance based on the following:
The green words indicate the same thing: suffering for Christ is enduring.
The purple words indicate the same thing: sharing in His glory IS reigning with Him.

Now, you are free to unpack my explanation and try to prove that these 2 verses don't say the same thing, and are not equivalent.

Oh, and, btw, please explain what these 2 verses actually do say.

One more thing; the black words. This is what happens to those who fail to endure, or share in His suffering; they will be denied the privilege of reigning with Him.

iow, it will be a reward for faithful (enduring) believers to reign with Christ.

The unfaithful not enduring believers will be IN the kingdom, but not reign with Christ IN the kingdom.

It's clear that you're rejecting the truth and substituting it with your own.

 

[Invalidusername]

Oh, I get it. "Don't do bad stuff or you're going to hell, because your faith and trust alone are worthless."

Does that about sum it up?

Incorrect. Read scripture and try to understand it AS JESUS INTENDED IT TO BE UNDERSTOOD.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So first of all, there is no need for explanation to the color coded because you are correct that you do possess eternal life.

Is that all you've got to say about my explanation of John 10:28? Seriously? Of course I am correct. And my whole explanation IS correct. So please address all of what I said about the verse.

HOWEVER the Bible makes it perfectly clear that you MUST REMAIN TO THE END. If you do not, you fall away. Hebrews 6, 2 Peter 2:19-22, and Hebrews 10:29-31

None of these verses/passages say clearly and in plain language that salvation can be lost. And "remaining to the end" or "enduring to the end" is found in Matt. And the context is the 7 year Tribulation.

All you've managed to do is insult me and make me lose all respect for you as a human being.

Oh, gee. Well, if you had actually engaged my color coded explanation of John 10:28 rather than dismiss it as you did, maybe we could get along.