Is arguing over evolution really helping?

[Eluzai]

I've been reading the threads here for a few weeks now and wow... there are people here with vast knowledge and great arguing ability, but is it glorifying to God?

Why are we arguing about it? Why are we so passionately divided over the issue. There are some posts by people... which are bordering offensive. In Acts "All the believers were together and they had everything in common."

Jesus talks about if satan is divided then how can he stand? How then can the Church stand if we are so divided against ourselves? Some of us will side with Jews or Muslims, others with Atheists just make a point against our fellow Christians.

Do we put as much effort into being unified with those we disagree with on origins as we do into researching origins?

Just a thought

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Why are there so many denominations?
Is doctrine important?
is faithful exposition of Gods Word important?
Is understanding Gods world important?
Unity has only one basis---the truth. both in the Word and in the World.

 

[Smidlee]

I've been reading the threads here for a few weeks now and wow... there are people here with vast knowledge and great arguing ability, but is it glorifying to God?

Why are we arguing about it?

In RL I don't know anyone who really cares. It's kind like telling a friend about an chess match watched on TV without them falling asleep. boring! So my guess people come online to find those they can debate with and hopely win ; kind of like a chess match.

 

[Vance]

I would agree with rmwilliamsll on this one. The Church began to have disputes over doctrine almost immediately upon Christ ascending into Heaven! Major disputes.

I would VERY much wish for this issue NOT to be an issue. But there are Young Earth Creationist ministries out there teaching, and pastors teaching, and books and videos teaching, what many TE's consider to be a very dangerous doctrine. A doctrine that can be a major stumbling block to our youth and to non-Christians. I have seen souls lost to the Kingdom due to this teaching, so I HAVE to take it seriously.

I can honestly say that I would not feel the need to debate these issues were it not for the danger that this teaching of YEC'ism is causing. I have absolutely NO problem with anyone believing whatever they like, this is simply not a salvation issue. But since many of the YEC's teach YEC'ism in a way that makes it the equivalent of a salvation issue, calling into question the validity of the Scripture for those who accept evolution, we would be remiss in our duties to sit idly by and let it happen.

 

[malkin]

One of my non-Christian friends told me that
"It [Young Earth Creationism] makes Christians look stupid and blind."

Do we want to seem stupid and blind to a world of unbelievers? Unbelievers can be lost because of Young Earth Creationism, and it makes Theistic Evolution believers, like myself, deeply uncomfortable, and may make less mature Christians question their faith.

 

[Eluzai]

I would VERY much wish for this issue NOT to be an issue. But there are Young Earth Creationist ministries out there teaching, and pastors teaching, and books and videos teaching, what many TE's consider to be a very dangerous doctrine. A doctrine that can be a major stumbling block to our youth and to non-Christians. I have seen souls lost to the Kingdom due to this teaching, so I HAVE to take it seriously.

I know people who would say the same about theistic evolution, but I do agree with you about the way it is taught. So isn't the answer for us all to come together and say that either belief is ok as long as you accept Jesus as your saviour. Then our arguements are not with eachother, but against those who say "you have to believe in a young earth to be a Christian" or "if you don't believe in evolution your faith will fall apart". And there are very few people I know who are so extreme.

Isn't the point that God created the universe in a few days quite recently or ages ago over a long period of time?

Let me put this another way: how can we keep our points of view without this issue dividing Christians?

I can't help but think God wants unity and humility where arrogance and division are now.

In Acts 2: "All the believers were together and had everything in common." There were divisions, Paul speaks out against them in 1 Corinthians. I've been reading about the church in China and until we introduced denominations in the literature we sent them the was only one church unified. Thats one church for 20 years or more... if God can do it in China He can do it here. If we put Jesus before every other issue we cannot help but come to other Christians we disagree with in humility, compassion and love.

 

[Vance]

I know people who would say the same about theistic evolution, but I do agree with you about the way it is taught. So isn't the answer for us all to come together and say that either belief is ok as long as you accept Jesus as your saviour. Then our arguements are not with eachother, but against those who say "you have to believe in a young earth to be a Christian" or "if you don't believe in evolution your faith will fall apart". And there are very few people I know who are so extreme.

YES! That would be wonderful. You won't hear ANY TE's telling people that they should believe in TE. Sure, we will present the pro's of the TE belief and respond to the arguments made against it as an approach to origins. But it is not the TE's saying that a particular belief is the "correct" one for Bible-believing Christians, or telling people that if they don't believe in a certain origin belief, you don't believe the Bible. You won't hear TE's arguing that if anything other than TE is correct, the Bible must be false. These are the arguments that YEC's make, and it is THESE arguments that are dangerous, not necessarily the YEC belief in itself.

The problem is that the YEC ministries are out there preaching their message in this dangerous way all over the country, and are spreading it to the rest of the world now. As long as they are out there teaching that a belief in evolution is a compromise form of Christianity, a lack of trust in the Scripture, etc, we must do what we can to counter-act this teaching by letting people know that this is simply not the case. They need not believe in TE, but they need to know that those who DO believe in TE are NOT compromising Christians, do NOT have a lack of trust in God's Word, and are just as led by the Spirit as any other Christians.

 

[gluadys]

I can honestly say that I would not feel the need to debate these issues were it not for the danger that this teaching of YEC'ism is causing. I have absolutely NO problem with anyone believing whatever they like, this is simply not a salvation issue. But since many of the YEC's teach YEC'ism in a way that makes it the equivalent of a salvation issue, calling into question the validity of the Scripture for those who accept evolution, we would be remiss in our duties to sit idly by and let it happen.

My own experience bears this out. When I was first introduced to this issue, my source of information was Old Earth Creationism, which was the predominant form of creationism at the time. Even when I learned enough about evolution to accept its scientific validity, I was not moved to debate the matter as I had no real quarrel with OEC and still don't. OEC generally does not dispute geology or paleontology. And I figured that anyone who took the time to learn about evolution would soon see the weakness in its approach to that topic.

YEC is a different story. I did not encounter it until the early 1980s. I had been moving in pretty liberal church circles for awhile, but at that time joined a relatively conservative Baptist church. I was prepared for some of the "cultural" differences that distinguished this church from my former one, and did not have a difficult time fitting in to this new environment. I even led the college and careers group for a while.

That's when someone invited me to a Duane Gish lecture. I was absolutely flabbergasted that someone was seriously proposing a literal young-earth as a scientifically valid idea. I was even more flabbergasted that leaders of the church wanted to promote this pseudo-science. I went to the lecture and was really disturbed by the shoddiness of the presentation---and by the enthusiasm with which it was greeted.

That was when I decided I could not let my children grow up in that congregation, and that I must oppose YECism in any way I could. I do not believe a church should be teaching their young people blatant falsehoods about valid scientific knowledge. It can only lead to youth being either unable to cope with science or unable to continue in Christian belief. Worst of all, it denies them the opportunity to really appreciate the full awesome magnificence of God's creation.

 

[Vance]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to gluadys again.

 

[PaladinValer]

**Doubles' Vance's (#9) post**

Very well stated, gluadys.

 

[herev]

*herev hits button again and again*
still, he can't rep gluadys either?

 

[United]

Let me put this another way: how can we keep our points of view without this issue dividing Christians?

I can't help but think God wants unity and humility where arrogance and division are now.

In Acts 2: "All the believers were together and had everything in common." There were divisions, Paul speaks out against them in 1 Corinthians. I've been reading about the church in China and until we introduced denominations in the literature we sent them the was only one church unified. Thats one church for 20 years or more... if God can do it in China He can do it here. If we put Jesus before every other issue we cannot help but come to other Christians we disagree with in humility, compassion and love.

Hi Eluzai,

I agree with your comments above. The forum has a lot going for it, but often I feel like people need to stand back and look at it from the outside. I would hate to see a non-christian reading some of the posts.

Too often we respond to posts as if it is an argument we have to win - not with a spirit of learning or a genuine concern for the other party. I have done it myself on various occasions. There is a place for debating in a civil manner - but it involves a choice we each have to make. When we feel like we are not responding for the right reasons, we are better to resist the temptation and finish the debate before it gets worse. If we are not acting in love we are better not acting at all.

Realistically, there will always be some inappropriate posts - but maybe if we all try harder there will be less of them.

PS - The church in China is really something hey! I have been reading about it myself & it really sets the heart on fire. The right focus changes everything!

 

[Didaskomenos]

But it's not simply evolution that we're arguing. If it didn't make Christians look like myopic clique-ish ostriches, creationism would be excusable, but still a symptom of a more subtle problem. That issue is bibliology: as creationists are fond of pointing out, our interpretation of Genesis has profound implications on how we interpret the rest of the Bible. Are we going to continue to interpret the Bible monolithically? What treasures await the believer who understands that our inspired Bible actually speaks the thoughts of God with human voices, as a seal of approval on humanity and our ability to commune with and testify to our awesome God? If human testimony were so invalid, why were we given the mandate to preach the truth of God to the world?

The Bible is not exhaustive of all truth, nor is everything peripheral to the spiritual revelation contained in Scripture correct in the strictest sense. This is important to recognize for two reasons: it reinforces the Christian conviction that the light of truth is not dimmed for being shone in dark environments, and it authorizes and legitimizes the search for truth that manifests itself in scientific endeavors.

Worth backbiting, hair-pulling, and blowing our witness over? Definitely not - more truth is hidden than revealed in those circumstances. Worth arguing for and defending with every ounce of intellect? Definitely - the truth is worth that.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I've been reading the threads here for a few weeks now and wow... there are people here with vast knowledge and great arguing ability, but is it glorifying to God?

Why are we arguing about it? Why are we so passionately divided over the issue. There are some posts by people... which are bordering offensive. In Acts "All the believers were together and they had everything in common."

Jesus talks about if satan is divided then how can he stand? How then can the Church stand if we are so divided against ourselves? Some of us will side with Jews or Muslims, others with Atheists just make a point against our fellow Christians.

Do we put as much effort into being unified with those we disagree with on origins as we do into researching origins?

Just a thought

knowledge and great arguing ability, but is it glorifying to God?

How do we glorify God?
Worship is certainly first.
but the wise use of our talents, gifts, time, energy working towards the things of God is certainly in there somewhere.

God created the universe. It is a good gift from His hands for us to understand, to use wisely, to enjoy. Science is how we understand this universe, the creation-evolution-design debate is concentrated at a point where the modern conservative church has made a mistake. The mistake is to surrender the world to Satan, to concentrate on the spiritual to the loss of the physical. That is what YEC's have done, whether they admit it or not. But their radical depreciation of science, their often held belief of creation with apparent age, they make the world deceptive, as if a trickster created it, not God. To discuss these things is an attempt to persuade the church to change it's mind, one person at a time.

Do we put as much effort into being unified with those we disagree with on origins as we do into researching origins?

on what grounds would you unify the Church?
i propose that the only way is the hard way, one person at a time, educated, convinced, persuaded. so the grounds must be the truth, spoken in love, and backed up with good thinking.

 

[Vance]

I wonder how long it took the Church to reach that critical mass when its acceptance of heliocentrism no longer became "an issue" among Christians?

 

[malkin]

Well, when was heliocentrism accepted as doctrine, and when was it first spoken out against?

 

[Vance]

That is what I mean, I am not sure when it reached that "critical mass" of acceptance by Christians when you could say that it was no longer an issue. It was definitely a major issue in, say, 1650, but it was no longer an issue by 1900. Yet there are still geocentrists today, as we know, but there presence and advocacy of geocentrism no longer any impact.

I think we were nearing, if not right at, that point of general acceptance within the Body of Christ where evolution and an old earth were no longer a divisive issue. Then the YEC ministries really cranked up in the 70's and early 80's, and made it an major issue again, setting us who knows how far back.

 

[Eluzai]

Heliocentrism was only briefly a problem and only because Tycho Brahe's data (decades of it) pointed to the sun going round the earth. Galileo just didnt have enough data at the time he confronted the establishment... if he'd have waited for data at least he would have the scientists behind him instead of no one... then when it was too late they got the data.

Maybe the thing about evolution is the lack of scientific data on the mechanism? I dont think the analogy sticks But I see your point

I just pray that everyone would put belief in Christ before origins like we have been saying.

 

[gluadys]

Heliocentrism was only briefly a problem and only because Tycho Brahe's data (decades of it) pointed to the sun going round the earth. Galileo just didnt have enough data at the time he confronted the establishment... if he'd have waited for data at least he would have the scientists behind him instead of no one... then when it was too late they got the data.

Maybe the thing about evolution is the lack of scientific data on the mechanism? I dont think the analogy sticks But I see your point

I just pray that everyone would put belief in Christ before origins like we have been saying.

Emphasis added

No, the analogy doesn't stick. At least not today. It might have been true when Darwin first presented his thesis. But now we are in the equivalent of the post-Tycho Brahe period. Lots of evidence that the mechanisms work.

 

[TwinCrier]

One of my non-Christian friends told me that
"It [Young Earth Creationism] makes Christians look stupid and blind."

Do we want to seem stupid and blind to a world of unbelievers? Unbelievers can be lost because of Young Earth Creationism, and it makes Theistic Evolution believers, like myself, deeply uncomfortable, and may make less mature Christians question their faith.

Our job is not to please the world. If the only persecution we face in life as Christians is name-calling we aren't exactly martyrs.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1 John 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.