Is anyone else watching the Strange Fire conference with John MacArthur?

[Andrea411]

John Macarthur's criticisms are based on some facts and it is the case that some Pentecostal and Charismatic pastors and their flocks engage in practises that ought to be condemned. He is, no doubt, inclined to make generalisations that upset people. Some of the generalisations may be incorrect or exaggerated. Yet the facts he brings forward and the criticism of bad practises need to be taken into account. Sweeping them away with wave of the hand because he is a noted critic of the charismatic movement or because he make this of that generalisation is selling one's self short.

Please name one denomination or Christian movement that has no practices that are not condemned by one or another Christian theologian or denomination. There is not one group, person, church or organization without something called 'heresy' by someone.
The closest group would have been Mainline denominations - for no other reason then that when nothing is happening there is nothing to talk about. It seems cold and dead is preferable to on fire for Jesus. I am familiar with the worst of what J.M. has called out and it isn't worth the time of day.
Charismatics stand within every denomination except those that actually call speaking in tongues demonic. The Baptist which have fought 'Charismatics' for decades have many many within their denomination. It doesn't seem to hurt them or the Catholic Church which studied the phenomenon and excepted it.
If J.M. wanted to call out particular denominations such as four-Square, Assy of God and or Church of God he would have a difficult time proving these groups do anything but lift Jesus and feed His flock.
J.M. chose to point to a few individuals. Benny Hinn seems to be a target. I often hear terrible things about Joyce Meyers (I really like her). Todd bentley comes up on some of those videos and guess what. I went to Lakewood, Fla for a Bentley revival and all I recall is thousands of people praising Jesus. Todd's personal problems and his personal thing with angels was not the focus of the people attending.
I have learned and all Christians should learn, if we keep our eyes on Jesus and we personally follow Christ. There is no man that can come between us and our Lord. I think the scariest thing for many is that within Charismatic circles there is freedom of thought. There is no dogma or defined doctrines - there is only salvation through Christ, the atonement, the simplicity of the gospel. Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself… the rest will take care of it self. Trust Christ, believe the Word. The Holy Spirit lives within and he is able to accomplish whatever the Lord desires. That is frightening to many control freaks.
Most Charismatics believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today, many do not 'speak in tongues' or prophesy. Often fear or uncertainty stop people from praying over people for healing and speaking prophecy when they hear it. Most Charismatic churches today are quite quiet.
I know J.M. hates the laughing revival… its so undignified to roll on the floor laughing… its not reverent. I think with all the outward hypocrisy that exists in the church… its a good thing to have that hard outer layer peeled back and the heart of a person exposed. Laughing is very healing and many have great testimonies about being delivered while in laughter. Medical studies have proven it helps the immune system and is very good for the heart. Could you imaging John MacArthur rolling on the floor laughing like a child in front of all his peers.
I respect that others have different thoughts about these things, but really they might not fit within your denomination but they are cherished moments within mine. When the Holy Spirit falls on a prayer group and either with tears of laughter or tears of gratitude, hearts are moved and changed. I have taken unbelievers in to powerful services where I could literally see the glory cloud. They would start to cry walking into the church. Not understanding what was happening, There hearts were being softened and experiencing the power and glory can often do far more then words. These people all got saved. Probably a dozen of the friends and family I got to go with me over a few years got saved in these services. While I respect others I do not understand them. All I see within the Charismatic groups is a desire to worship in Spirit and in truth. Every once in awhile there is someone who acts out or up…. we get over it. But in most churches there is nothing to get over…. nothing at all. I could turn on the radio and get what most churches give. A good talk… people walk in and out, wave smile and go out for lunch.
… I'd rather have a little messiness then the sanitary services within most churches. Where the Holy Spirit is told what and when he will be allowed to move….. no worries, and not much movement.
God bless, andrea

 

[MoreCoffee]

Please name one denomination or Christian movement that has no practices that are not condemned by one or another Christian theologian or denomination. There is not one group, person, church or organization without something called 'heresy' by someone.

The closest group would have been Mainline denominations - for no other reason then that when nothing is happening there is nothing to talk about. It seems cold and dead is preferable to on fire for Jesus. I am familiar with the worst of what J.M. has called out and it isn't worth the time of day.

Charismatics stand within every denomination except those that actually call speaking in tongues demonic. The Baptist which have fought 'Charismatics' for decades have many many within their denomination. It doesn't seem to hurt them or the Catholic Church which studied the phenomenon and accepted it.

If J.M. wanted to call out particular denominations such as four-Square, Assembly of God and or Church of God he would have a difficult time proving these groups do anything but lift Jesus and feed His flock.

J.M. chose to point to a few individuals. Benny Hinn seems to be a target. I often hear terrible things about Joyce Meyers (I really like her). Todd Bentley comes up on some of those videos and guess what. I went to Lakewood, Fla for a Bentley revival and all I recall is thousands of people praising Jesus. Todd's personal problems and his personal thing with angels was not the focus of the people attending.

I have learned and all Christians should learn, if we keep our eyes on Jesus and we personally follow Christ. There is no man that can come between us and our Lord. I think the scariest thing for many is that within Charismatic circles there is freedom of thought. There is no dogma or defined doctrines - there is only salvation through Christ, the atonement, the simplicity of the gospel. Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself… the rest will take care of it self. Trust Christ, believe the Word. The Holy Spirit lives within and he is able to accomplish whatever the Lord desires. That is frightening to many control freaks.

Most Charismatics believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today, many do not 'speak in tongues' or prophesy. Often fear or uncertainty stop people from praying over people for healing and speaking prophecy when they hear it. Most Charismatic churches today are quite quiet.

I know J.M. hates the laughing revival… its so undignified to roll on the floor laughing… its not reverent. I think with all the outward hypocrisy that exists in the church… its a good thing to have that hard outer layer peeled back and the heart of a person exposed. Laughing is very healing and many have great testimonies about being delivered while in laughter. Medical studies have proven it helps the immune system and is very good for the heart. Could you imaging John Macarthur rolling on the floor laughing like a child in front of all his peers.

I respect that others have different thoughts about these things, but really they might not fit within your denomination but they are cherished moments within mine. When the Holy Spirit falls on a prayer group and either with tears of laughter or tears of gratitude, hearts are moved and changed. I have taken unbelievers in to powerful services where I could literally see the glory cloud. They would start to cry walking into the church. Not understanding what was happening, There hearts were being softened and experiencing the power and glory can often do far more then words. These people all got saved. Probably a dozen of the friends and family I got to go with me over a few years got saved in these services. While I respect others I do not understand them. All I see within the Charismatic groups is a desire to worship in Spirit and in truth. Every once in awhile there is someone who acts out or up…. we get over it. But in most churches there is nothing to get over…. nothing at all. I could turn on the radio and get what most churches give. A good talk… people walk in and out, wave smile and go out for lunch.

… I'd rather have a little messiness than the sanitary services within most churches. Where the Holy Spirit is told what and when he will be allowed to move….. no worries, and not much movement.
God bless, andrea

I do not agree that every community of faith teaches heresy. It may be true that somebody somewhere will cry heresy at everyone. It may also be true that many or even most religious groups within Christianity do teach one or more heresies. Does that mean one ought to pretend that no group teaches heresy? Does it mean that the heresies that are taught by this and that denomination or church or independent group should be ignored?

It is true that every large community of people has faults and has bad members. That is a given isn't it?

So, ought every large community to ignore the faults it has? Are the bad people in its midst to be praised? Surely not. That is a given too, isn't it?

John Macarthur has faults. Does anybody doubt that? Does he himself say otherwise?

Are any of the criticisms that John Macarthur made at the STRANGE FIRE conference based on facts, are any true? It seems to me that whatever he had to say if it was true then those who are in a position to act to correct the faults, errors in practises, and heresies taught or believed ought to do so. His criticisms when they are true are true no matter what one may think of John Macarthur.

So we come to the specifics of people and teachings. John Macarthur made allegations, backed by publicly available video clips, books, magazine articles, and audio recordings. If his allegations are correct then should any action be taken? Would you want to endorse the practises and the beliefs singled out in specific cases in the Strange Fire conference?

Do you believe, as your post suggests, that doctrine and decorum in worship are not very significant? You state that loving Jesus, being faithful to him, keeping one's eyes fixed on him etcetera are what Christians ought to learn but isn't doctrine and worship exactly what loving Jesus and following him and being faithful to him teaches?

John Macarthur has a church, his community worships Jesus, loves him, follows him, and seeks to be faithful to him does it not?

The idea about messiness that you mention in your post is interesting but it does seem to contradict what Paul wrote to the Corinthians in his first letter to them towards the end of chapter fourteen where he reminds them to behave in decency and order and to keep the prophets and those who speak in tongues in order with a restriction on the number who can participate in the meeting. None of what Paul says matches the "laughing revival" for example. None of it teaches that a congregation of Christians should revel in disorder.

And even though many today think dogma and doctrine to be non-essentials or even bad that does not make it so. Scripture warns of a falling away from healthy teaching that will happen after the apostles are gone (1 Tim 4:3; Matt 7:15; Acts 20:29). When scriptural teaching sinks below the level of enjoyment at a meeting and having a good time, even if it is said to be in the Lord, becomes more important than obeying the teaching of Christ about how to conduct one's worship of God then somebody needs to give the warning. When Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman he spoke about true worship and as he explained what he meant he told her that those who worship in Spirit and truth are the ones God is looking for. It may seem lively and wonderful to be worshipping God in the ways we can see at the "laughing revival" and a lot of people think such worship is 'in the Spirit" but somehow it seems to have missed the importance of truth. That I think, may be what spurred John Macarthur to call his conference and write his book. I hope it is. Time will tell what fruit it will yield.

God bless.

 

[Andrea411]

I do not agree that every community of faith teaches heresy. It may be true that somebody somewhere will cry heresy at everyone. It may also be true that many or even most religious groups within Christianity do teach one or more heresies. Does that mean one ought to pretend that no group teaches heresy? Does it mean that the heresies that are taught by this and that denomination or church or independent group should be ignored?

It is true that every large community of people has faults and has bad members. That is a given isn't it?

So, ought every large community to ignore the faults it has? Are the bad people in its midst to be praised? Surely not. That is a given too, isn't it?

John Macarthur has faults. Does anybody doubt that? Does he himself say otherwise?

Are any of the criticisms that John Macarthur made at the STRANGE FIRE conference based on facts, are any true? It seems to me that whatever he had to say if it was true then those who are in a position to act to correct the faults, errors in practises, and heresies taught or believed ought to do so. His criticisms when they are true are true no matter what one may think of John Macarthur.

So we come to the specifics of people and teachings. John Macarthur made allegations, backed by publicly available video clips, books, magazine articles, and audio recordings. If his allegations are correct then should any action be taken? Would you want to endorse the practises and the beliefs singled out in specific cases in the Strange Fire conference?

Do you believe, as your post suggests, that doctrine and decorum in worship are not very significant? You state that loving Jesus, being faithful to him, keeping one's eyes fixed on him etcetera are what Christians ought to learn but isn't doctrine and worship exactly what loving Jesus and following him and being faithful to him teaches?

John Macarthur has a church, his community worships Jesus, loves him, follows him, and seeks to be faithful to him does it not?

The idea about messiness that you mention in your post is interesting but it does seem to contradict what Paul wrote to the Corinthians in his first letter to them towards the end of chapter fourteen where he reminds them to behave in decency and order and to keep the prophets and those who speak in tongues in order with a restriction on the number who can participate in the meeting. None of what Paul says matches the "laughing revival" for example. None of it teaches that a congregation of Christians should revel in disorder.

And even though many today think dogma and doctrine to be non-essentials or even bad that does not make it so. Scripture warns of a falling away from healthy teaching that will happen after the apostles are gone (1 Tim 4:3; Matt 7:15; Acts 20:29). When scriptural teaching sinks below the level of enjoyment at a meeting and having a good time, even if it is said to be in the Lord, becomes more important than obeying the teaching of Christ about how to conduct one's worship of God then somebody needs to give the warning. When Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman he spoke about true worship and as he explained what he meant he told her that those who worship in Spirit and truth are the ones God is looking for. It may seem lively and wonderful to be worshipping God in the ways we can see at the "laughing revival" and a lot of people think such worship is 'in the Spirit" but somehow it seems to have missed the importance of truth. That I think, may be what spurred John Macarthur to call his conference and write his book. I hope it is. Time will tell what fruit it will yield.

God bless.

Good morning MoreCoffee. Love the name bc I love my coffee. I would like to say first; I really appreciate the tone of our discussion. It is a delight to discourse with others while acknowledging our differences. The example I see from Christ was when confronted with unbelievers and other believers, He was tolerant and kind. The only times He was angry was within His own. Then He was deeply angry and very corrective in His words and demeanor.

Please do not think that Charismatics do not take study importantly. Of course some more then others. I spent years studying the bible. I am only a few credits short of a minor in Theology. IMO… once a creed is established within a church, the Tenets of Faith most churches are safe doctrinally.
One example: My experience has shown that people with a bent toward fixing others doctrines. Come in as "know it alls", often self-righteous and cause divisions within particular bodies of believers. I've seen this myself with Baptist churches. The Calvinist come in and want Calvinism taught. Now just how important is it for a believer conform to Calvin or to an Arminian theology. I have seen throughout history people thought this was extremely important. They were willing to die and or kill for their beliefs. What does the bible tell us? What do we NEED to believe to be saved? What do we need and to be being conformed to the image of Christ? We won't settle that particular argument. It is the too often divisiveness of people not theology that is the problem. I would prefer both theologies be taught - the history of those theologies and why it is important to have sound doctrine. The Creeds/Statements of Faith were worked out not to keep the peace but to insure sound doctrine. There is are few things so persuasive or appealing and even powerful then tainted doctrine. The bible and religion can become evil in the hands of evil men. Poor souls cast about by unsound doctrine, sad, unhappy and often ending in anger and unbelief. I myself as a new Christian had the Mormons come to my door just days after I was saved. I thought God sent them. Thirty years ago without an internet, coming from a background as an atheist knowing nothing but Christ had saved me…. I was baptized in the LDS church but after studying till I thought my head would explode… I could not sit down with them and prove them wrong. I only knew they talked more about J.Smith then Jesus Christ. I actually counted it… and that made me certain I had to leave.
During that time I was pleading with the Lord to help me KNOW which was the RIGHT church…. so one morning I am brushing my teeth and I hear a voice (within) "Why do you worry so much about what men think and not what it is that I desire". I saw my own need to be right, my own need to have the correct doctrine. I like to be correct. I really really don't like to be wrong. LOL. But that changed everything for me….. I needed to look to Christ and follow Him not any man. No matter how sound his doctrine.
Two maybe three points 1) I was saved while I was a Mormon 2) they are lovely people and their doctrine is abominable - it will not save you 3) doctrine doesn't save anyone. Christ does. There are Christians in every cult and Christ knows who they are… it was part of my walk. Having been an atheist for the first 30 years of my life; it proved an invaluable experience for me. I learned much about the beauty of deception and how much the Lord loves people even while they are desperately wrong.
I've since learned you don't convert people by proving their religion is wrong. The ex-mormon sites are full of angry atheists. You do far better at acknowledging what is good about them and sharing your own faith and statement of faith, just as we would with unbelievers. In love.
….as far as Pentecostal services go… if you attend an Assy of God church you will find them very orderly. Depending on the Pastor, sound doctrine is taught. The bible is read, the songs are Praise and worship…. the prayers to the Father always in Jesus Name. Trinitarian, usually Arminian or with freewill and original sin taught. Of course like any church group we are held together by faith in Christ not so much our doctrine. In most Pentecostal churches there are prayer groups and that is where you might find all speaking in tongues at once, that is a beautiful thing. We are all in praise - no unbelievers there and its just a few minutes - its not co-ordinated so its difficult to explain but its open prayers…. you will hear English as well as tongues…. everyone just openly unashamedly praising our Lord as our hearts lead. There may very well be prophesy and an interpretation, sometimes in tongues and sometimes the prophesy will be in English. I recognize my own language in others. So this gibberish thing J.M. calls it is not what I hear. If it were gibberish it would be different every time, I hear the same words all the time. Far too many for me to have memorized… and if it were gibberish - if it comes from a heart full of love and worship for the Lord - that is all praise is anyway. Sounds in any language are just thoughts and feelings put into words. The gifts are for the church, Corinthians goes into a lot of detail about them and there is no mention of the time when a book will come together and take their place. It is the Holy Spirit Himself working in His body. For healing, for edifying, for teaching, for deliverance…. and if churches are not at least seeking and expecting the Lord to move… I think they are missing so much of the joy of the Lord. I live a life full of expectation of the Lord teaching me, speaking to me, explaining those things that get me stuck but always I am leaning on Him. Not on any man.
As far as J.M. is concerned he has no business telling other congregations they are worshipping a false god. He is a liar on that point. I can't imagine the audacity of him, saying these things while he did not say them to the faces of men he acknowledges are Christians. But he says they are the exception???? His job is to teach his congregation - he has not been called to be an attack dog to others. Although, I think the Lord takes everything and turns it to our good if we are trusting Him. I can only imagine all across this country the congregations that are searching the scriptures and having their faith affirmed or diminished. In which case they needed to know what they believed. If our faith is so weak it falls on account of men, we need to know that also. Doctrine is good to teach our heads, until we get so puffed up it implodes on us. Love is more important to teach us how to reach out to a lost and dying world. It is not necessary to relinquish one for the other.
God bless, andrea

PS: I have had the Lord speak to me on a number of occasions, always life changing. I needed my life changed, but I always thought the first time He spoke to me was while I was brushing my teeth bc its the only time I'd shut up long enough to listen….
I have an amazing life, full of Christ's love. Truly blessed. My family is whole and I am at peace. Something that was unimaginable for me 30 years ago. I don't think His words to me are for the whole body. My thought is that sometimes these charismatics, the ones who are off. Think they need to teach others what the Lord is showing them. I think if we listen and trust He is able to guide us in our own walk. Teachers and pastors are there for a reason but we still have to listen to the Holy Spirit on our own.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Good morning MoreCoffee. Love the name bc I love my coffee. I would like to say first; I really appreciate the tone of our discussion. It is a delight to discourse with others while acknowledging our differences. The example I see from Christ was when confronted with unbelievers and other believers, He was tolerant and kind. The only times He was angry was within His own. Then He was deeply angry and very corrective in His words and demeanor.

Please do not think that Charismatics do not take study importantly. Of course some more then others. I spent years studying the bible. I am only a few credits short of a minor in Theology. IMO… once a creed is established within a church, the Tenets of Faith most churches are safe doctrinally.

One example: My experience has shown that people with a bent toward fixing others' doctrines, come in as "know it alls", often self-righteous and cause divisions within particular bodies of believers. I've seen this myself with Baptist churches. The Calvinists come in and want Calvinism taught. Now just how important is it for a believer conform to Calvin's or to an Arminian theology. I have seen throughout history people thought this was extremely important and they were willing to die and or kill for their beliefs. What does the bible tell us? What do we NEED to believe to be saved and follow, being conformed to the image of Christ? We won't settle that particular argument. It is the divisiveness that is the problem. I would prefer both theologies be taught - the history of those theologies and why it is important to have sound doctrine. The Creeds - Statements of Faith were worked out not to keep the peace but to insure sound doctrine. There is nothing so persuasive or appealing and even powerful than tainted doctrine. The bible and religion can become evil in the hands of evil men. Poor souls cast about by unsound doctrine, sad, unhappy and often ending in anger and unbelief. I myself as a new Christian had the Mormons come to my door and I thought God sent them. Thirty years ago without an internet, coming from a background as an atheist knowing nothing but Christ had saved me…. I was baptized in the LDS church but after studying till I thought my head would explode… I could not sit down with them and prove them wrong. I only knew they talked more about J. Smith than Jesus Christ. I actually counted it… and that made me certain I had to leave.

During that time I was pleading with the Lord to help me KNOW which was the RIGHT church…. so one morning I am brushing my teeth and I hear a voice (within) "Why do you worry so much about what men think and not what it is that I desire". I saw my own need to be right, my own need to have the correct doctrine. I like to be correct. I really really don't like to be wrong. LOL. But that changed everything for me….. I needed to look to Christ and follow Him not any man. No matter how sound his doctrine. Two maybe three points

1. I was saved while I was a Mormon
2. they are lovely people and their doctrine is abominable - it will not save you
3. doctrine doesn't save anyone. Christ does.

There are Christians in every cult and Christ knows who they are… it was part of my walk. Having been an atheist for the first 30 years of my life; it proved an invaluable experience for me. I learned much about the beauty of deception and how much the Lord loves people even while they are desperately wrong.

I've since learned you don't convert people by proving their religion is wrong. The ex-mormon sites are full of angry atheists. You do far better at acknowledging what is good about them and sharing your own faith and statement of faith, just as we would with unbelievers. In love.

….as far as Pentecostal services go… if you attend an Assembly of God church you will find them very orderly. Depending on the Pastor, sound doctrine is taught. The bible is read, the songs are Praise and worship…. the prayers to the Father always in Jesus Name. Trinitarian, usually Arminian or with freewill and original sin taught. Of course like any church group we are held together by faith in Christ not so much our doctrine. In most Pentecostal churches there are prayer groups and that is where you might find all speaking in tongues at once, that is a beautiful thing. We are all in praise - no unbelievers there and its just a few minutes - its not co-ordinated so its difficult to explain but its open prayers…. you will hear English as well as tongues…. everyone just openly unashamedly praising our Lord as our hearts lead. There may very well be prophesy and an interpretation, sometimes in tongues and sometimes the prophesy will be in English. I recognize my own language in others. So this gibberish thing John Macarthur calls it is not what I hear. If it were gibberish it would be different every time, I hear the same words all the time. Far too many for me to have memorized… and if it were gibberish - if it comes from a heart full of love and worship for the Lord - that is all praise is anyway. Sounds in any language are just thoughts and feelings put into words. The gifts are for the church, Corinthians goes into a lot of detail about them and there is no mention of the time when a book will come together and take their place. It is the Holy Spirit Himself working in His body. For healing, for edifying, for teaching, for deliverance…. and if churches are not at least seeking and expecting the Lord to move… I think they are missing so much of the joy of the Lord. I live a life full of expectation of the Lord teaching me, speaking to me, explaining those things that get me stuck but always I am leaning on Him. Not on any man.

As far as John Macarthur is concerned he has no business telling other congregations they are worshipping a false god. He is a liar on that point. I can't imagine the audacity of him, saying these things while he did not say them to the faces of men he acknowledges are Christians. But he says they are the exception???? His job is to teach his congregation - he has not been called to be an attack dog to others. Although, I think the Lord takes everything and turns it to our good if we are trusting Him. I can only imagine all across this country the congregations that are searching the scriptures and having their faith affirmed or diminished. In which case they needed to know what they believed. If our faith is so weak it falls on account of men, we need to know that also. Doctrine is good to teach our heads, until we get so puffed up it implodes on us. Love is more important to teach us how to reach out to a lost and dying world. It is not necessary to relinquish one for the other.

God bless, andrea

Thank you for your reply. I took the liberty to substitute "John Macarthur" for the abbreviation "J.M." and I also made some formatting changes to make my task of reading the text easier. I hope you do not mind.

I do not believe that John Macarthur thinks that doctrine can save a person apart from Jesus Christ. I know that I do not. The scriptures and the teaching of Christ handed down in apostolic tradition are helps along the way and a means through which the holy Spirit guides and sustains the faithful in the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. Neither scripture nor apostolic tradition can bring a soul to faith in Jesus Christ, for that the Spirit of the Lord is needed. He must bring the sinner to repentance and to faith and to the obedience of faith which are the marks of genuine conversion at work in the souls of the faithful.

I cannot help but notice that John Macarthur has taken on a role which can be characterised as heresy hunting but I do not believe that is what he is; that is to say, I do not think he is a heresy hunter and nothing more. In the scriptures we are told about the watchman who is to sound the warning when the enemy approaches. The watchman takes on that role when called to it but it is not all he is. The watchman I am thinking of is Ezekiel the prophet. We remember him more as a prophet than as the watchman called by God to sound the warning (Ezekiel 33:1-20). I think that there is an analogy that can justifiably be made between the role of watchman and the role of John Macarthur and his co-hosts at the Strange Fire conference. If the only thing that John Macarthur did was hunt down and expose heresy and heretics then he might fit the bill of the division-causing intruder into another man's home or another man's field. I say this not to protect him nor to justify his errors or unjustified generalisations (where they are unjustified they ought to be corrected). I am saying this more because I too have seen serious abuses of gifts and terrible consequences for some. If you will indulge me for a little while I will tell you a story of a woman who I knew very well and who died of cancer but was made to feel alone and abandoned because she had come to believe that her faith was insufficient to make her well. She was only in her 40s when she died. She left a son and a daughter behind, the son in his later teens and the daughter only 7 years old. She had been taught the word-of-faith from Kenneth Hagan's books and a few members in the local Assembly of God who were very keen followers of Kenneth Hagan's teaching. I was deeply moved and affected by these events. I will not go into the details of how and why they affected me as they did, but suffice it to say that the memory of them has not left me.

I have attended more than one hundred fifty services a local Assembly of God and have a number of friends who either were members some years ago or are still members now. I myself have not always been a Catholic Christian. I also spent some times in Charismatic and Pentecostal denominations. So I have some experience of the way the meetings I attended worked. And I will confirm, many were orderly and many were times of refreshing and joy. That is not the issue either for me or, if I am not mistaken, for those who spoke at the Strange Fire conference.

It is tempting to attack John Macarthur and leave the Strange Fire conference at that. To offer a critique of the man and his words or methods and not to address the content of what was said and what was shown at that conference. To do that is to miss an opportunity to improve and to add more life to those places that are already alive and already seek to serve the Lord in the beauty of holiness. So I am writing these replies and other posts to help, if it is possible, encourage the good that can come from proper discernment coupled with self examination in relation to corporate worship and doctrine and scripture.

God be with you.

 

[Andrea411]

Thank you for your reply. I took the liberty to substitute "John Macarthur" for the abbreviation "J.M." and I also made some formatting changes to make my task of reading the text easier. I hope you do not mind.

I do not believe that John Macarthur thinks that doctrine can save a person apart from Jesus Christ. I know that I do not. The scriptures and the teaching of Christ handed down in apostolic tradition are helps along the way and a means through which the holy Spirit guides and sustains the faithful in the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. Neither scripture nor apostolic tradition can bring a soul to faith in Jesus Christ, for that the Spirit of the Lord is needed. He must bring the sinner to repentance and to faith and to the obedience of faith which are the marks of genuine conversion at work in the souls of the faithful.

I cannot help but notice that John Macarthur has taken on a role which can be characterised as heresy hunting but I do not believe that is what he is; that is to say, I do not think he is a heresy hunter and nothing more. In the scriptures we are told about the watchman who is to sound the warning when the enemy approaches. The watchman takes on that role when called to it but it is not all he is. The watchman I am thinking of is Ezekiel the prophet. We remember him more as a prophet than as the watchman called by God to sound the warning (Ezekiel 33:1-20). I think that there is an analogy that can justifiably be made between the role of watchman and the role of John Macarthur and his co-hosts at the Strange Fire conference. If the only thing that John Macarthur did was hunt down and expose heresy and heretics then he might fit the bill of the division-causing intruder into another man's home or another man's field. I say this not to protect him nor to justify his errors or unjustified generalisations (where they are unjustified they ought to be corrected). I am saying this more because I too have seen serious abuses of gifts and terrible consequences for some. If you will indulge me for a little while I will tell you a story of a woman who I knew very well and who died of cancer but was made to feel alone and abandoned because she had come to believe that her faith was insufficient to make her well. She was only in her 40s when she died. She left a son and a daughter behind, the son in his later teens and the daughter only 7 years old. She had been taught the word-of-faith from Kenneth Hagan's books and a few members in the local Assembly of God who were very keen followers of Kenneth Hagan's teaching. I was deeply moved and affected by these events. I will not go into the details of how and why they affected me as they did, but suffice it to say that the memory of them has not left me.

I have attended more than one hundred fifty services a local Assembly of God and have a number of friends who either were members some years ago or are still members now. I myself have not always been a Catholic Christian. I also spent some times in Charismatic and Pentecostal denominations. So I have some experience of the way the meetings I attended worked. And I will confirm, many were orderly and many were times of refreshing and joy. That is not the issue either for me or, if I am not mistaken, for those who spoke at the Strange Fire conference.

It is tempting to attack John Macarthur and leave the Strange Fire conference at that. To offer a critique of the man and his words or methods and not to address the content of what was said and what was shown at that conference. To do that is to miss an opportunity to improve and to add more life to those places that are already alive and already seek to serve the Lord in the beauty of holiness. So I am writing these replies and other posts to help, if it is possible, encourage the good that can come from proper discernment coupled with self examination in relation to corporate worship and doctrine and scripture.

God be with you.

Thank you for your response, I can not say what my thoughts about what John MacArthur's intentions were. His summation of Pentecostal and Charismatic churches was hideous. I can not take him seriously. I can not read hearts but out of the mouth the heart speaks. His words were terrible.
How could anyone defend this man who has stated that 'all' charismatics except a few are worshipping a false god. The hundreds of millions of believers in Africa. Asia and S. America experiencing real revival and real persecution - he says is a false move from satan?? Churches in various countries are dealing with very real problems of false doctrines and heresies just as the early church did. That early church was Charismatic and with the manifestations of the Spirit came some problems. Paul wrote to correct those problems and there is no vibrant church that does not have problems, some you see some you don't see but they are there.
I am not going to express an opinion about what J.M's intentions are…. I have a difficult time believing his intentions are as evil as his words. I just simply don't know.
Its easy to criticize a church where things are happening while ignoring others where nothing happens. There are churches supporting abortion rights, Black liberation theology, ordaining openly gay ministers, or worse doing nothing but gathering like a Sunday club. Plenty to criticize, so why pick on the two groups that have turned the third world upside down; Catholics and Charismatics.
If he wants to go after Word of Faith (which I moderately adhere to) and or doctrinal differences - fine. He went way past that and I do not have an answer to why or what good he thinks will come of that.
How will He (Jesus) know us and what does it take to be saved, these are things that occur within every denomination. I prefer believing the Lord is willing to heal when we ask, move mountains when we need Him to. I believe He does that for Methodists and Catholics … for believers everywhere. I think it is wonderful to have eyes wide open watching His hand moving always. Listening for a word, a nudge or a hug. He who spoke the worlds into existence speaks to us today. We must believe and be willing to acknowledge His handiwork.
I have great sympathy for those who have been told they did not have enough faith to be healed. It is a stumbling block for me. I know Jesus heals and we need to have faith but I have seen people of great faith die and unbelievers healed. There is a point where we have only one option - to submit our wills to Him.
I also have great sympathy for a Catholic man who asked a priest if his baby was in heaven - he had not been baptized and was told "no". That is why it is so important to lean on Jesus and not on any man. Common sense tells us that Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Recently I had friends, a dear couple lose their son to suicide. Awful terribly painful situation. Suicide is a sin and Jesus forgives sinners. Over 30 people came to the Lord at this boy's funeral. Only Jesus brings life from death. If we are willing to give Him our pain, He is willing to give us our healing. This couple takes great solace in knowing that so many will see eternity bc of the death of their son. They will not get the reason until they meet Jesus face to face.
Years of experience have taught me to rely on Christ and to wait on Him, if I am willing He is able. One day I will die, it won't be bc I didn't have enough faith. When our amen reaches His amen it is done. But we do not know what the Lord knows as much as we try to have the mind of Christ we are only finite beings unable to comprehend 'world without beginning and with no end".
God bless, andrea

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thank you for your response, I can not say what my thoughts about what John MacArthur's intentions were. His summation of Pentecostal and Charismatic churches was hideous. I can not take him seriously. I can not read hearts but out of the mouth the heart speaks. His words were terrible.

How could anyone defend this man who has stated that 'all' charismatics except a few are worshipping a false god. The hundreds of millions of believers in Africa. Asia and S. America experiencing real revival and real persecution - he says is a false move from satan?? Churches in various countries are dealing with very real problems of false doctrines and heresies just as the early church did. That early church was Charismatic and with the manifestations of the Spirit came some problems. Paul wrote to correct those problems and there is no vibrant church that does not have problems, some you see some you don't see but they are there.

I am not going to express an opinion about what J.M's intentions are…. I have a difficult time believing his intentions are as evil as his words. I just simply don't know.

Its easy to criticize a church where things are happening while ignoring others where nothing happens. There are churches supporting abortion rights, Black liberation theology, ordaining openly gay ministers, or worse doing nothing but gathering like a Sunday club. Plenty to criticize, so why pick on the two groups that have turned the third world upside down; Catholics and Charismatics.

If he wants to go after Word of Faith (which I moderately adhere to) and or doctrinal differences - fine. He went way past that and I do not have an answer to why or what good he thinks will come of that.

How will He (Jesus) know us and what does it take to be saved, these are things that occur within every denomination. I prefer believing the Lord is willing to heal when we ask, move mountains when we need Him to. I believe He does that for Methodists and Catholics … for believers everywhere. I think it is wonderful to have eyes wide open watching His hand moving always. Listening for a word, a nudge or a hug. He who spoke the worlds into existence speaks to us today. We must believe and be willing to acknowledge His handiwork.

I have great sympathy for those who have been told they did not have enough faith to be healed. It is a stumbling block for me. I know Jesus heals and we need to have faith but I have seen people of great faith die and unbelievers healed. There is a point where we have only one option - to submit our wills to Him.

I also have great sympathy for a Catholic man who asked a priest if his baby was in heaven - he had not been baptized and was told "no". That is why it is so important to lean on Jesus and not on any man. Common sense tells us that Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Recently I had friends, a dear couple lose their son to suicide. Awful terribly painful situation. Suicide is a sin and Jesus forgives sinners. Over 30 people came to the Lord at this boy's funeral. Only Jesus brings life from death. If we are willing to give Him our pain, He is willing to give us our healing. This couple takes great solace in knowing that so many will see eternity bc of the death of their son. They will not get the reason until they meet Jesus face to face.

Years of experience have taught me to rely on Christ and to wait on Him, if I am willing He is able. One day I will die, it won't be bc I didn't have enough faith. When our amen reaches His amen it is done. But we do not know what the Lord knows as much as we try to have the mind of Christ we are only finite beings unable to comprehend 'world without beginning and with no end".

God bless, andrea

Thank you for your reply.

I have not yet received my copy of the book "Strange Fire". It will probably be two weeks or so until it arrives because it is not yet in print as a paperback and it will take about a week to arrive in the mail. When it arrives I shall take a closer look at its contents and comment on it in a thread here on GT if there are matters that seem useful or interesting enough for comment.

God bless.

 

[digabeatle]

I ordered the paperback edition of STRANGE FIRE.

It was $13.64 (including delivery); not too expensive so I thought I'd buy a copy.

Have any of you read it yet, or obtained a copy?

all church members / attenders plus all who are on the churches mailing list recieved a free copy hardcover i believe ... I couldnt wait for mine and a couple in my bible study class had an extra that they gave me last night haven't started yet though

 

[MoreCoffee]

all church members / attenders plus all who are on the churches mailing list recieved a free copy hardcover i believe ... I couldnt wait for mine and a couple in my bible study class had an extra that they gave me last night haven't started yet though

I'd be jealous ... and I am a little about the hardcover ... but I am happy as a Catholic

 

[sunlover1]

In my opinion… the conference coincided with the release of his book. If he wanted to improve the church or to 'correct' poor teachers he could have held a conference while he was researching his book.

Perhaps his goal isn't to help those who he feels are confused,
but rather to condemn all who are not like him.
We see that often in GT so it's probably widespread.
Kind of like men acted in NT sometimes I suppose.
So where's the love?
We can all tell when someone's operating out of love, can't we?

He waited for its publication date. J.M. is and had always very publicly condemned charismatics. I don't know why since all the early Christians were charismatic. I don't know why every Christian is not? We all have gifts. Some are considered super-natural, but all are the working of the Holy Spirit through believers of every denomination.

What would be bad about super natural? Our God is spirit.

We all see those "false teachers" they uphold and someone is ready to call them out on whatever. But I think most teachers could be 'called out; just bc they are public figures. The fact is our beliefs even within our various denominations are changing. As we become more and more like Him (hopefully) our maturity, experience, education etc form ideas and ideals over our lifetime. Our salvation is not an on again off again thing. Sometimes our doctrine might sound heretical to some people and not to others. I take the good, leave the bad and hope for the best.

Certainly, we have SO many different understandings of so many things.
Same with any denom. But difference being that we are more open.
Where I live, the Christians ...safe, "reverent" mostly calvinist (not that
that's bad, although I am not one) fine upstanding citizens of the
community... do their drinking in the basement, put on airs and make
a big show of their religion. They're in church twice on sunday and
will gossip about you behind your back if you mow the grass on Sun.
I grew up, as a little RCC girl, in this environment. Oh and they hated
me with a passion. Told me I worshiped idols, and other nice things.
But they never get called out because they don't STEP out and move
in the gifts of the Spirit.
And THATS why we get attacked.. but do you see Charismatics doing
much attacking of them?
Probably not.
How do we identify Christians again? (According to God) It was by
their love one for another.

J.M. truly makes me sad. If he wanted to offer a good argument for his beliefs he has the name recognition to open a dialogue within charismatic circles. He chose to go behind the backs of some very respected Charismatics that he had previously had personal and professional dealings with… he said he regretted that but it didn't change the way he feels about most charismatics. Jack Hayford lives very close to him, they know each other… Gordon Fee is well respected. He did not invite anyone who would refute his arguments.

smh.
It is sad. because it's very telling.

I think he underestimates the damage he does to His Church and to the unbelievers who hear about this Christian against Christian infighting. As I've said before, we in the US have the luxury of fighting over doctrine, while many Christians around the world fight to survive.
God bless, andrea

Well thankfully, God is able to work in spite of haters.
Keep on shining like lights in the universe and never
loose your saltiness.

 

[sunlover1]

I prefer believing the Lord is willing to heal when we ask, move mountains when we need Him to. I believe He does that for Methodists and Catholics … for believers everywhere. I think it is wonderful to have eyes wide open watching His hand moving always. Listening for a word, a nudge or a hug. He who spoke the worlds into existence speaks to us today. We must believe and be willing to acknowledge His handiwork.
I have great sympathy for those who have been told they did not have enough faith to be healed. It is a stumbling block for me. I know Jesus heals and we need to have faith but I have seen people of great faith die and unbelievers healed. There is a point where we have only one option - to submit our wills to Him.
I also have great sympathy for a Catholic man who asked a priest if his baby was in heaven - he had not been baptized and was told "no". That is why it is so important to lean on Jesus and not on any man. Common sense tells us that Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Recently I had friends, a dear couple lose their son to suicide. Awful terribly painful situation. Suicide is a sin and Jesus forgives sinners. Over 30 people came to the Lord at this boy's funeral. Only Jesus brings life from death. If we are willing to give Him our pain, He is willing to give us our healing. This couple takes great solace in knowing that so many will see eternity bc of the death of their son. They will not get the reason until they meet Jesus face to face.
Years of experience have taught me to rely on Christ and to wait on Him, if I am willing He is able. One day I will die, it won't be bc I didn't have enough faith. When our amen reaches His amen it is done. But we do not know what the Lord knows as much as we try to have the mind of Christ we are only finite beings unable to comprehend 'world without beginning and with no end".
God bless, andrea

<3 amen

 

[sunlover1]

John Macarthur's criticisms are based on some facts and it is the case that some Pentecostal and Charismatic pastors and their flocks engage in practises that ought to be condemned. He is, no doubt, inclined to make generalisations that upset people. Some of the generalisations may be incorrect or exaggerated. Yet the facts he brings forward and the criticism of bad practises need to be taken into account. Sweeping them away with wave of the hand because he is a noted critic of the charismatic movement or because he make this of that generalisation is selling one's self short.

Including the criticisms of your own church?
Probably not, right?
Now 'those' maybe we'll sweep away with the wave of the hand?

 

[sunlover1]

I ordered the paperback edition of STRANGE FIRE.

It was $13.64 (including delivery); not too expensive so I thought I'd buy a copy.

Have any of you read it yet, or obtained a copy?

Is it true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent or praiseworthy?
Doubtful.
I'd wait for the book Messy posted a couple pages back.
"Authentic Fire"

 

[MoreCoffee]

Including the criticisms of your own church?
Probably not, right?
Now 'those' maybe we'll sweep away with the wave of the hand?

No, is criticisms of the Catholic Church may contain facts too and if they do then the facts ought to be taken into account. I rather like it what people take the time and the trouble to inform themselves properly about what the Church teaches. It can be very invigorating to discuss Church doctrine with a well informed critic. There's nothing to fear in bringing matters to the light.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I ordered the paperback edition of STRANGE FIRE.

It was $13.64 (including delivery); not too expensive so I thought I'd buy a copy.

Have any of you read it yet, or obtained a copy?

Is it true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent or praiseworthy?
Doubtful.
I'd wait for the book Messy posted a couple pages back.
"Authentic Fire"

Haven't see that one. "Authentic Fire" you say? Got a URL?

God bless.

 

[sunlover1]

No, is criticisms of the Catholic Church may contain facts too and if they do then the facts ought to be taken into account. I rather like it what people take the time and the trouble to inform themselves properly about what the Church teaches. It can be very invigorating to discuss Church doctrine with a well informed critic. There's nothing to fear in bringing matters to the light.

Every time those things are "brought to light" here in GT,
they're "waved away".
Praying to Mary
Priests can't marry
etc and so forth.

At least the majority of the charismatics do
agree that the goof balls are out of line.

JM is himself out of line imo.
But you enjoy it. I hope you
read it prayerfully.

 

[sunlover1]

Haven't see that one. "Authentic Fire" you say? Got a URL?

God bless.

Messy posted it.
3 or 4 pages back.
I have to go make coffee
If you can't find it, I'll look later.


It's some pre release answer to JM's book.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Messy posted it.
3 or 4 pages back.
I have to go make coffee
If you can't find it, I'll look later.


It's some pre release answer to JM's book.

I found the URL in the post you mentioned.

This week, when you stand with us as a new Torchbearer, you’ll receive a signed copy of Dr. Brown’s new book, Authentic Fire: A Response to John MacArthur’s Strange Fire!

(This book is expected to release in early 12/13)

THANKS FOR STANDING WITH US! Please fill out the fields in the donation form below to send your donation As a token of our thanks, all those that sign up to become monthly torchbearers and give at least $25 per month will receive: 1) A monthly newsletter and audio message via E-mail 2) A 15% discount on all online purchases of any size 3) Free and unlimited access to Dr. Brown’s video-on-demand classes online (valued at $50 per class)

The donation amount specified will be collected on a monthly basis.

I will have to check who Dr Brown is; I don't know of him/her or about him/her.

I'm a little leery about signing up as a monthly donor!

I'll wait until a simple price for purchase is made public.

God bless.

 

[sunlover1]

I found the URL in the post you mentioned.


I will have to check who Dr Brown is; I don't know of him/her or about him/her.

I'm a little leery about signing up as a monthly donor!

I'll wait until a simple price for purchase is made public.

God bless.

I wont sign up as a monthly donor.
I had not investigated it at all before mentioning
it to you, so please forgive me if it's junk.
The author doesn't sound familiar but I do know
of one pastor Brown who preaches about grace.
Will also wait for a price AND I like to read the
reviews and previews as well. (look inside)

 

[MoreCoffee]

I wont sign up as a monthly donor.
I had not investigated it at all before mentioning
it to you, so please forgive me if it's junk.
The author doesn't sound familiar but I do know
of one pastor Brown who preaches about grace.
Will also wait for a price AND I like to read the
reviews and previews as well. (look inside)

I did some checking up on him. He is Dr Brown, has a web site, and is apparently a Charismatic/Pentecostal scholar.

I listened to a debate he had with a cessationist that was hosted by James White. It was interesting but inconclusive. Such debates almost always are inconclusive. But it was interesting. The URL for the debate is:

Have the New Testament Charismatic Gifts Ceased? (Brown and Waldron Debate) - YouTube
​

It is rather long, but if you are patient or if you treat it like a background radio program you may be able to listen to it all the way through. I did, though I did pause it a few times to check the longer passages referenced by the two Doctors.

God bless.

​

 

[NorrinRadd]

Perhaps his goal isn't to help those who he feels are confused,
but rather to condemn all who are not like him.
We see that often in GT so it's probably widespread.
Kind of like men acted in NT sometimes I suppose.
So where's the love?
We can all tell when someone's operating out of love, can't we?

You just gave me a great flashback. Twenty-some years ago, I heard a preacher say something like this: "If someone says to you, 'Brother, I want to tell you something in love,' you'd better brace yourself, 'cause what you hear next isn't going to sound anything like 'love.'"