Is anyone else watching the Strange Fire conference with John MacArthur?

[ViaCrucis]

oh we're way past that…. John MacArthur thinks we're just as bad as the mormons and I'm sure you know what he already thinks of Catholics. He said, we worship another god… a golden calf… really…
Seems the Pope has given his approval to the Catholic charismatic movement…. ??
The only time I have seen a number of different churches together Catholic, Protestant, Fundamentalists and Pentecostals is in Spirit-filled prayer meetings - we don't focus on our personal doctrinal differences, the focus is on Christ… its a beautiful thing. Its also where I found out that Catholics love Jesus and know Him as Savior just like Protestants/Pentecostals… hey who knew?? I thought they were too busy listening to the Pope but I was wrong.

While I am Catholic (I'm Lutheran), I'm not Roman Catholic.

Lutheranism and Charismaticism don't really make good bedfellows. We Lutherans are pretty big on God's self-presentation of Himself through His Means of Grace, where He has certainly promised to be available for us. Of course MacArthur's kind of Evangelicalism isn't really big on that either, so technically I don't have much of a dog in this fight. Though as an outsider looking in, and having once been involved in both Evangelical traditions at different points of my life, (and been involved in debates identical to this one) I do find it interesting .

I also don't really understand how one focuses on Christ without being deeply interested in theology and doctrine. That seems like a contradiction in terms.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Andrea411]

While I am Catholic (I'm Lutheran), I'm not Roman Catholic.

Lutheranism and Charismaticism don't really make good bedfellows. We Lutherans are pretty big on God's self-presentation of Himself through His Means of Grace, where He has certainly promised to be available for us. Of course MacArthur's kind of Evangelicalism isn't really big on that either, so technically I don't have much of a dog in this fight. Though as an outsider looking in, and having once been involved in both Evangelical traditions at different points of my life, (and been involved in debates identical to this one) I do find it interesting .

I also don't really understand how one focuses on Christ without being deeply interested in theology and doctrine. That seems like a contradiction in terms.

-CryptoLutheran

Who said no one was interested in theology or doctrine? When we gather to pray it is not the time to discus our personal beliefs or our personal preferences of which church we attend or why we don't… those things are secondary to submitting and worshipping our Lord. The more I see people here, debating doctrine, the less I think we need more doctrine. We need the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ in the scriptures and then we can come together in unity. Lutherans would also be welcome when we pray.
People have studied the scriptures for 2000 years… they have fought and died and there is nothing new. The only way we are discerned as being Christian is "how we love one another". I see little of that in theological debates… I would take heart knowledge over head knowledge any day, but the fact is when you love someone you want to learn about them… to sit at Christ feet and learn. Not at Luther's, or Calvin's or the Pope's feet….
Studying the bible is much different then learning of Him….
God bless, andrea

 

[Gnarwhal]

At this point what I am most curious about is if anybody in this thread has experienced Bethel first-hand or at least knows someone personally who has?

I tell you what, I've heard a plethora of accounts due to the fact that my former church would send throngs of fanboys there for their services (I seriously heard people imply that they couldn't fully experience God unless they were there).

Here's some of the situations that were described to me by my sister:

-She had to play shepherd for her friend whom she accompanied because this friend was lapping the room and every time they passed a certain point in the room she'd collapse, my sister had to stay by her side just to keep her upright, forfeiting any potential worship experience of her own.

-Some participants were crawling around on all fours growling and barking like dogs.

-To close the service participants exited through a "fire tunnel". I'm still not 100% sure what that all entails, but how my sister described it, essentially individuals pass through the middle of two rows of people and as you pass by they touch you and shout "fire". Now whether or not that's how the "fire tunnel" is practiced as a whole, this is how it was done at Bethel.

Now, I ask you... where in world is this in Scripture or Church history?!

 

[MoreCoffee]

I watched "Strange Fire Confrence - John MacArthur - General Session 1 - 10.16.2013" and even though I find myself in agreement with a number of the things that John MacArthur said in his 1 hour and 20 minute presentation I was appalled at some of the things he said in his concluding prayer. I know it is not usual to criticise a prayer especially when it is an impromptu prayer said without the benefit of careful preparation and composition but his concluding prayer displayed the kind of hubris that he noted in some charismatic leaders' words. Consider these words from his prayer (1:20:25):

• ... we know what the true work of the Holy Spirit is 'cause you told us ...
• ... we don't see that across this movement; we therefore cannot conclude that it's a work of the Holy Spirit ...
• ... We would never attribute it to Him; we would be frightened to even think of doing it ...
• ... We don't feel cheated. We don't need to chase after any of these foolish falsehoods. We're content. ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWgrEHvJ078

 

[Andrea411]

I watched "Strange Fire Confrence - John MacArthur - General Session 1 - 10.16.2013" and even though I find myself in agreement with a number of the things that John MacArthur said in his 1 hour and 20 minute presentation I was appalled at some of the things he said in his concluding prayer. I know it is not usual to criticise a prayer especially when it is an impromptu prayer said without the benefit of careful preparation and composition but his concluding prayer displayed the kind of hubris that he noted in some charismatic leaders' words. Consider these words from his prayer (1:20:25):

• ... we know what the true work of the Holy Spirit is 'cause you told us ...
• ... we don't see that across this movement; we therefore cannot conclude that it's a work of the Holy Spirit ...
• ... We would never attribute it to Him; we would be frightened to even think of doing it ...
• ... We don't feel cheated. We don't need to chase after any of these foolish falsehoods. We're content. ...

…………………………...

This is what J.M. has to say about Catholics, its not just charismatics he goes after…
JOHN MACARTHUR: Look, if the Catholic Church is already a cobelligerent, if they are already anti-abortion, and pornography, and homosexuality; they are going to use all of their energies within the framework of their system to go after that. We are committed to that, and we are going after that. There is already a collective movement. Once you then sort of try to define that as “common spiritual mission” built on “common spiritual unity” you just take doctrine and throw it out the window, and perception is violated, particularly because the Catholic Church claims to be true Christianity, and when we reverse 450 years of history, and just throw our arms around the Roman system, which I think we have to say, John, in all honesty, is not a group of wayward brothers but is an apostate form of Christianity. It is a false religion, it is another religion.

I have to say I thought this also until I actually spoke to Catholics who loved the Lord and were full of the Holy Spirit… it made me go back to the scriptures and see "what does it take to be saved". The pure simplicity of the gospel is having faith in Christ's death and resurrection. I don't agree with many RC doctrines, but from what I've seen there is no church with 100% correct doctrine or there would be one church. the only time I see one church is when Spirit filled believers get together and pray in the Spirit - we are one. The work of God is to "believe". there have been wrongs in all denominations and heresies and 'weird' or worse terrible things done in the name of religion…. it can not be that we have to be smart enough to be saved… it is the work of Christ and not of ourselves
God bless, andrea

 

[simonthezealot]

The WoF teachers I listen to are very balanced. I like Wommack and Joyce Meyers…. before you paint with a broad brush please name the brush you yourself are under??

Meyers teaches that we become little Gods. She is part of the name it and claim it crowd.

 

[Kristen.NewCreation]

ADMIN HAT ON


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If the flaming and personal posts continue, the thread will be closed.



ADMIN HAT OFF


​

 

[digabeatle]

some of the tags associated with this thread are extremely specific and inflammatory.

 

[HighwayMan]

The conference correctly points out that many evangelical pastors today are basically bats*** insane lunatics running around on stage with their underwear on their heads.

 

[Messy]

I found some good stuff about this:
Be Careful About What You Call a ‘Different Gospel’

Let’s Not Bite and Devour One Another

And a new book: authentic fire *Special* Pre-Order of Authentic Fire: A Response to John MacArthur's | AskDrBrown

 

[MoreCoffee]

I watched "Strange Fire Confrence - John MacArthur - General Session 1 - 10.16.2013" and even though I find myself in agreement with a number of the things that John MacArthur said in his 1 hour and 20 minute presentation I was appalled at some of the things he said in his concluding prayer. I know it is not usual to criticise a prayer especially when it is an impromptu prayer said without the benefit of careful preparation and composition but his concluding prayer displayed the kind of hubris that he noted in some charismatic leaders' words. Consider these words from his prayer (1:20:25):

• ... we know what the true work of the Holy Spirit is 'cause you told us ...
• ... we don't see that across this movement; we therefore cannot conclude that it's a work of the Holy Spirit ...
• ... We would never attribute it to Him; we would be frightened to even think of doing it ...
• ... We don't feel cheated. We don't need to chase after any of these foolish falsehoods. We're content. ...

…………………………...

This is what J.M. has to say about Catholics, its not just charismatics he goes after…

JOHN MACARTHUR: Look, if the Catholic Church is already a cobelligerent, if they are already anti-abortion, and pornography, and homosexuality; they are going to use all of their energies within the framework of their system to go after that. We are committed to that, and we are going after that. There is already a collective movement. Once you then sort of try to define that as “common spiritual mission” built on “common spiritual unity” you just take doctrine and throw it out the window, and perception is violated, particularly because the Catholic Church claims to be true Christianity, and when we reverse 450 years of history, and just throw our arms around the Roman system, which I think we have to say, John, in all honesty, is not a group of wayward brothers but is an apostate form of Christianity. It is a false religion, it is another religion.​

I have to say I thought this also until I actually spoke to Catholics who loved the Lord and were full of the Holy Spirit… it made me go back to the scriptures and see "what does it take to be saved". The pure simplicity of the gospel is having faith in Christ's death and resurrection. I don't agree with many RC doctrines, but from what I've seen there is no church with 100% correct doctrine or there would be one church. the only time I see one church is when Spirit filled believers get together and pray in the Spirit - we are one. The work of God is to "believe". there have been wrongs in all denominations and heresies and 'weird' or worse terrible things done in the name of religion…. it can not be that we have to be smart enough to be saved… it is the work of Christ and not of ourselves
God bless, andrea

If John MacArthur has substantive arguments against any specific doctrine believed and taught by the Catholic Church then let him make his case and let it be answered. One ought not to assume (in advance) that all truth is to be found in this or in that place or with this or that group. That is why I stated in my earlier post (the one that you quoted in the post quoted above) "I find myself in agreement with a number of the things that John MacArthur said in his 1 hour and 20 minute presentation". So I reiterate in this post that some of the complaints that John MacArthur brings against the charismatic/pentecostal movement are valid.

As for John MacArthur's complaints against Catholic teaching and Catholic practises I cannot say I have seen any that are valid. The quote you supplied, where he says of the Catholic Church that it "is not a group of wayward brothers but is an apostate form of Christianity. It is a false religion, it is another religion." is rhetorical flourish rather than a sound argument. Basically it is name calling on a par with other name calling that lacks substance and fails to advance a sound argument. If he offers arguments to support the name calling then I am confident that they are not valid but since I do not see any from him in the quote I must agree with you that he is "going after" rather than offering sound argumentation.

 

[Andrea411]

If John MacArthur has substantive arguments against any specific doctrine believed and taught by the Catholic Church then let him make his case and let it be answered. One ought not to assume (in advance) that all truth is to be found in this or in that place or with this or that group. That is why I stated in my earlier post (the one that you quoted in the post quoted above) "I find myself in agreement with a number of the things that John MacArthur said in his 1 hour and 20 minute presentation". So I reiterate in this post that some of the complaints that John MacArthur brings against the charismatic/pentecostal movement are valid.

As for John MacArthur's complaints against Catholic teaching and Catholic practises I cannot say I have seen any that are valid. The quote you supplied, where he says of the Catholic Church that it "is not a group of wayward brothers but is an apostate form of Christianity. It is a false religion, it is another religion." is rhetorical flourish rather than a sound argument. Basically it is name calling on a par with other name calling that lacks substance and fails to advance a sound argument. If he offers arguments to support the name calling then I am confident that they are not valid but since I do not see any from him in the quote I must agree with you that he is "going after" rather than offering sound argumentation.

I only brought up what J.M. teaches about Catholicism to make the point that he seems to have made himself the Point man for all heresy hunters. There is no equivocating on his part about the RCC. He has a number of well written articles I don't want to and could not argue doctrine with J.M. I only know people were being saved before there were councils and Creeds.
That does not mean I don't see the value in Creeds, just that J.M. has determined that Catholics are not saved.. it is a false religion (according to him). Is Roman Catholicism Biblical?
He has now said that Charismatics follow another god, and that they are no more saved then Mormons (that was quoted from this conference). I think he has impugned himself by over stepping and injecting his opinions; and with it a certain authority he has within fundamentalists circles and with other Christians of faith. How he got there, I do not know, bc charismatics are in all denominations. I can't imagine. He did not separate those who are Word of Faith (which I am) or those who bark or act out in the extreme (which is I have never seen in 30 years within Charismatic circles). He stated that about ALL Charismatics.
So how do you accept his teachings on Charismatics but not on Catholics?
As far as I am concerned, he has done me a favor, I spent a lot of time reviewing and praying, also remembering the things the Lord has done in my life and reading the scriptures. It has affirmed my faith.
I was also very impressed with the Charismatic leaders, bloggers, writers response. it was a great reminder to be loving amidst controversy and even amidst persecution. To be clear, I think we in the USA can not claim persecution while we see very real persecution around the world. Shamefully, MacArthur has given ammunition to their enemies. Much of the revival in Africa, S.America and Asia is Charismatic.. these people are facing terrorists who have no problem explaining to their people that charismatics are actually demon possessed (bc even J.M. says it). I cringe to think of how that furthers the gospel. When we have such public events calling out the Christian church as extreme, fakes, or worshipping other gods… what happens when the real extremist quote our church leaders.
J.M. is making a good living off of the gospel of exclusion. I think if he were genuinely concerned about the Church he would have included Charismatic theologians, there are many in his area. My understanding is they were not invited. It was unnecessary to make this so public, he could have done this within churches that he thought were affected, but it wouldn't sell books?? I will not judge him, except that I now reject his teachings.
God bless, andrea

PS: I mentioned my objections at one time to Catholicism, but once I had some teaching on why they do some of what I think are odd things. And the actual churches teachings… although I disagree with many things, I was glad to know they are Christian.

 

[simonthezealot]

some of the tags associated with this thread are extremely specific and inflammatory.

Looks like they cleared it up.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I only brought up what J.M. teaches about Catholicism to make the point that he seems to have made himself the Point man for all heresy hunters. There is no equivocating on his part about the RCC. He has a number of well written articles I don't want to and could not argue doctrine with J.M. I only know people were being saved before there were councils and Creeds.

Yes, I understood that was one of your reasons for posting and I agree that John Macarthur's youtube clips and a number of his published books look like the work of a "heresy hunter". And I would not really complain if he were hunting and uncovering heresy; I am, however, not persuaded that he hunts and uncovers heresy because some of his own teaching (dispensationalism for example) is heresy. But he does have one thing going for him, he makes an effort to present sound doctrine and is willing to examine claims that others make to see if they are true claims or if they are false. So, even though he mixes some heresy in with some sound doctrine he has tried to defend what he believes is truth.


There's an interesting video that was done by two small KJV-Only groups and their pastors that heresy hunts for John Macarthur among other things. I'll post the URL at the end of this post. I reckon that a man can preach a good sermon one week or on one occasion or in one video-clip and in the next preach heresy and error. So my conclusion is that what a preacher has to say ought to be judged on its merits and if it is good on one occasion that does not mean it will be good on the next occasion. ** By the way, KJV-Only teaching is a heresy too, I do not want to be misunderstood as endorsing the views expressed by the video-guys I only wanted to point out that even a heresy holding preacher can preach something that is true **

And I agree with you when you observe that people were saved by God before any church council was held and before any church creed was written. Mind you, the books of Acts in chapter fifteen tells us about the first church council and it contains the first church creed. That council and that creed happen to be recorded for us in sacred scripture and as such are inspired and true and few would fight against it as false - but some might. So, I pray God will bless and keep you in your own journey through this life and that every grace and all wisdom will be yours to guide you through the maze of claims that are made by preachers and teachers all around the world. I pray the same for myself and for us all on GT.

That does not mean I don't see the value in Creeds, just that J.M. has determined that Catholics are not saved.. it is a false religion (according to him). Is Roman Catholicism Biblical?

Yes, he's been a long time opponent of Catholic faith and teaching. No doubt he believes he is doing good when he fights against what the Catholic Church teaches. Naturally I do not agree with him on that matter. It is one of the many cases where the same man can speak truth on one occasion and on one subject and speak error on another occasion and on another matter. In the case of John Macarthur's view of Catholic teaching he is in error but it would take much more time and much more text to refute his claims than I am willing to give.

He has now said that Charismatics follow another god, and that they are no more saved than Mormons (that was quoted from this conference). I think he has impugned himself by over stepping and injecting his opinions; and with it a certain authority he has within fundamentalists circles and with other Christians of faith. How he got there, I do not know, because charismatics are in all denominations. I can't imagine. He did not separate those who are Word of Faith (which I am) or those who bark or act out in the extreme (which is I have never seen in 30 years within Charismatic circles). He stated that about ALL Charismatics.

I agree with you that John Macarthur tries to make all charismatics guilty by pointing to some examples that are guilty and then using the guilt-by-association fallacy to make his case against all charismatic and pentecostal christians. It is unsound argument and he ought to know better. Yet it is common as a form of argument in religion when one desires to make one's opponent look bad. John Macarthur is not the only preacher I've seen or heard using that fallacy in a sermon, or in a prayer.

So how do you accept his teachings on Charismatics but not on Catholics?
As far as I am concerned, he has done me a favor, I spent a lot of time reviewing and praying, also remembering the things the Lord has done in my life and reading the scriptures. It has affirmed my faith.

I apologise for not being clear enough in my previous post. I do not accept John Macarthur's sweeping condemnation of all charismatic and pentecostal religion. What I do accept is that some of the groups, teachers, and practises shown in video clips or quoted in sermons at the STRANGE FIRE conference are in very grave error.

I was also very impressed with the Charismatic leaders, bloggers, writers response. it was a great reminder to be loving amidst controversy and even amidst persecution. To be clear, I think we in the USA can not claim persecution while we see very real persecution around the world. Shamefully, MacArthur has given ammunition to their enemies. Much of the revival in Africa, S.America and Asia is Charismatic.. these people are facing terrorists who have no problem explaining to their people that charismatics are actually demon possessed (because even J.M. says it). I cringe to think of how that furthers the gospel. When we have such public events calling out the Christian church as extreme, fakes, or worshipping other gods… what happens when the real extremists quote our church leaders.

J.M. is making a good living off of the gospel of exclusion. I think if he were genuinely concerned about the Church he would have included Charismatic theologians, there are many in his area. My understanding is they were not invited. It was unnecessary to make this so public, he could have done this within churches that he thought were affected, but it wouldn't sell books?? I will not judge him, except that I now reject his teachings.

God bless, andrea

PS: I mentioned my objections at one time to Catholicism, but once I had some teaching on why they do some of what I think are odd things. And the actual churches teachings… although I disagree with many things, I was glad to know they are Christian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aB2mu1_DvI

 

[digabeatle]

YAY I finally got up to 50 posts thank you all who were kind enough to assist with posting of links for me

that said I now offer this Strange Fire Q&A: Answering the Critics for anyone still interested in some dialogue regarding the intentions of strange fire conference also just some answers for the harsher critics

 

[MoreCoffee]

YAY I finally got up to 50 posts thank you all who were kind enough to assist with posting of links for me

that said I now offer this Strange Fire Q&A: Answering the Critics for anyone still interested in some dialogue regarding the intentions of strange fire conference also just some answers for the harsher critics

I am tempted to do a Darth Vader and say "I find you cheese hat disturbing"

By the way, glad the link was helpful

God bless.

 

[sunlover1]

I only brought up what J.M. teaches about Catholicism to make the point that he seems to have made himself the Point man for all heresy hunters.

I'd spend time with the evangelical pastors who have been described
here as "basically bats*** insane lunatics running around on stage
with their underwear on their heads" (isn't that lovely?) any day before
spending time with any who call themselves heresy "hunters".
There IS no ministry of condemnation.
They've lost their flavor and they've
hidden their light under a bushel.

There is no equivocating on his part about the RCC. He has a number of well written articles I don't want to and could not argue doctrine with J.M. I only know people were being saved before there were councils and Creeds.
That does not mean I don't see the value in Creeds, just that J.M. has determined that Catholics are not saved.. it is a false religion (according to him). Is Roman Catholicism Biblical?
He has now said that Charismatics follow another god,

Very sad
But should we be surprised at being attacked?
The enemy would LOVE to shut down the gifts.
(WORKING of God 'through" His "BODY" in healings
prophesy etc)

J.M. is making a good living off of the gospel of exclusion.

forgive him Father,
He knows not what he does.

I think if he were genuinely concerned about the Church he would have included Charismatic theologians, there are many in his area. My understanding is they were not invited. It was unnecessary to make this so public, he could have done this within churches that he thought were affected, but it wouldn't sell books?? I will not judge him, except that I now reject his teachings.
God bless, andrea

Maybe he's afraid to have the Charismatic theologians.

.

 

[Andrea411]

I'd spend time with the evangelical pastors who have been described
here as "basically bats*** insane lunatics running around on stage
with their underwear on their heads" (isn't that lovely?) any day before
spending time with any who call themselves heresy "hunters".
There IS no ministry of condemnation.
They've lost their flavor and they've
hidden their light under a bushel.

Very sad
But should we be surprised at being attacked?
The enemy would LOVE to shut down the gifts.
(WORKING of God 'through" His "BODY" in healings
prophesy etc)


forgive him Father,
He knows not what he does.
Maybe he's afraid to have the Charismatic theologians.

.

In my opinion… the conference coincided with the release of his book. If he wanted to improve the church or to 'correct' poor teachers he could have held a conference while he was researching his book. He waited for its publication date. J.M. is and had always very publicly condemned charismatics. I don't know why since all the early Christians were charismatic. I don't know why every Christian is not? We all have gifts. Some are considered super-natural, but all are the working of the Holy Spirit through believers of every denomination.
We all see those "false teachers" they uphold and someone is ready to call them out on whatever. But I think most teachers could be 'called out; just bc they are public figures. The fact is our beliefs even within our various denominations are changing. As we become more and more like Him (hopefully) our maturity, experience, education etc form ideas and ideals over our lifetime. Our salvation is not an on again off again thing. Sometimes our doctrine might sound heretical to some people and not to others. I take the good, leave the bad and hope for the best.
J.M. truly makes me sad. If he wanted to offer a good argument for his beliefs he has the name recognition to open a dialogue within charismatic circles. He chose to go behind the backs of some very respected Charismatics that he had previously had personal and professional dealings with… he said he regretted that but it didn't change the way he feels about most charismatics. Jack Hayford lives very close to him, they know each other… Gordon Fee is well respected. He did not invite anyone who would refute his arguments. I think he underestimates the damage he does to His Church and to the unbelievers who hear about this Christian against Christian infighting. As I've said before, we in the US have the luxury of fighting over doctrine, while many Christians around the world fight to survive.
God bless, andrea

 

[MoreCoffee]

John Macarthur's criticisms are based on some facts and it is the case that some Pentecostal and Charismatic pastors and their flocks engage in practises that ought to be condemned. He is, no doubt, inclined to make generalisations that upset people. Some of the generalisations may be incorrect or exaggerated. Yet the facts he brings forward and the criticism of bad practises need to be taken into account. Sweeping them away with wave of the hand because he is a noted critic of the charismatic movement or because he make this of that generalisation is selling one's self short.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I ordered the paperback edition of STRANGE FIRE.

It was $13.64 (including delivery); not too expensive so I thought I'd buy a copy.

Have any of you read it yet, or obtained a copy?