Is anyone else frustrated? [moved from Controversial Christian Theology]

[Butch5]

But souls don't need a body to survive, right? Because a soul is eternal but a body is not. What if the breathe of life was God giving the man a soul? He formed the man and breathed into his body a soul.

Also what about the part where the bible says fear the one that can kill both the body and the soul, so that would mean we have a soul.

A soul must have a body. Gen 2:7 shows that a soul consists of a body and the breath of God. Those two components together make a soul.

The passage From Jesus is Mat. 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hel (Matt. 10:28 KJV)

The Scriptures use the word soul in two ways. One is concretely as a living being. The other way is abstract where it's used of life. Every person who has lived will be resurrected at some point. Believers will be resurrected at Christ's coming and the unbelievers 1000 years later. So, even though one dies, they will live again. Jesus is saying do fear man who can only kill hte body. The life or soul is in God's hand and that person will live again. However, when God destroys the body He can also destroy the life or soul. Basically what it means is don't fear men who can only kill temporarily, fear God who can kill permanently.

 

[Teslafied]

What is the difference between spirit and soul? Also, it seems you are claiming a mind-body dualism, which is unbiblical.

http://www.gotquestions.org/soul-spirit.html

 

[Butch5]

Oh okay so you believe we won't go to heaven but inherit the earth. May I ask what type of church you attend? Is there anyway I can research this particular belief? Like how did you come across all this? - thanks.

I belong to a group of guys who have decided to get back to the pristine faith. The group studies Christian history and traces modern doctrines back in time through history to find their source. If doctrines cannot be traced back to the apostles they are rejected. I can give you some thinks to study these doctrines. It will take some time as the audios/videos are fairly long and there are many of them.

Doctine of Man
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/bbi_03.html

Destiny of Man
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/bbi_04.html

Heaven
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Heaven.html

Hell
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Hell.html

I've also written a paper on the land inheritance that contains a lot of Scripture and some quotes from the early Christians.

The Kingdom of God (A Biblical Perspective)

 

[Hillsage]

Well I don't appreciate being called dumb but at any rate I had apologized for sounding rude. I never meant to come off as rude but I realize that it did come off that way even though it wasn't my intention.

I wasn't intending rudeness either, just honestly telling you how your rudeness impacted me. And I think you apologized because it was rude, which does speak very well of you Teslafied. And I know my rebuke was hard. And I'm not saying 'you' are dumb, but your 'remark' was...IMO. Hope we're OK with that. Especially since we're probably the only two 'Crazimatics' here and I don't know how many times I've been told 'that' is a false doctrine too.

 

[Teslafied]

I belong to a group of guys who have decided to get back to the pristine faith. The group studies Christian history and traces modern doctrines back in time through history to find their source. If doctrines cannot be traced back to the apostles they are rejected. I can give you some thinks to study these doctrines. It will take some time as the audios/videos are fairly long and there are many of them.

Doctine of Man
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/bbi_03.html

Destiny of Man
http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/bbi_04.html

Heaven
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Heaven.html

Hell
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Hell.html

I've also written a paper on the land inheritance that contains a lot of Scripture and some quotes from the early Christians.

The Kingdom of God (A Biblical Perspective)

I'll check this out, thanks again. I definitely don't mind reading other things it's what I do, I enjoy studying.

 

[Teslafied]

I wasn't intending rudeness either, just honestly telling you how your rudeness impacted me. And I think you apologized because it was rude, which does speak very well of you Teslafied. And I know my rebuke was hard. And I'm not saying 'you' are dumb, but your 'remark' was...IMO. Hope we're OK with that. Especially since we're probably the only two 'Crazimatics' here and I don't know how many times I've been told 'that' is a false doctrine too.

It's all water under the bridge I've had a pretty rough day I shouldn't have been so rude.

True, us crazimatics are few and far between here haha.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Reading all this it just reminds me.

1. When non-christians see this they think are religion is stupid.
2. As christians we tend to believe our view is the only right one because its what we believe.
3. We waste so much time on trivial things when we could be out there getting people saved who have a current one way ticket to meet the devil when they die.

I'm all for correction and reading something new sometimes to see if ones view is right or not. But Gods not going to be like "Well John Smith, you said christians weren't allowed to eat meat when you were alive. For that your off to hell!". Then again I'm just not one for long debating.

 

[Hillsage]

What is the difference between spirit and soul? Also, it seems you are claiming a mind-body dualism, which is unbiblical.

You ask a very good and difficult question, one that has evaded theologians IMO. But you also make a bad assumption, because I'm claiming spirit/soul/body which is triparte and certainly not dualism. The brain is not spirit.

MY OPINION is; The spirit is what God has given 'into our belly' (prov 20:27, Joh 7:38) from the Holy Spirit in the womb....before we, as a fetus can even think about breathing...until birth. A fetus isn't a breathing creature, the mother is breathing and yet this child has the spark/candle of life in it which was present from the joining of the sperm/egg. Something man kind of thinks he understands....but I'm wondering.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...t-marks-incredible-moment-life-begins-when-s/

Jesus told Nicodemus in the garden that which is born 'of the Spirit is spirit'. And he said 'that spirit' must be 'born AGAIN'....that means more than once. The alternate translation of 'Born from above' means something a little different IMO, but still emphasizes a spiritual change. When God created man he said let US create man in OUR image. Well, at creation God didn't have a body of flesh/dust which hadn't even been created yet. And God wasn't some Cosmic Soul as the Eastern religions believe. The creator God was Father/spirit Word/spirit Holy Spirit/spirit..."God is spirit".

And Adam's spirit was 'of His spirit' and it was placed in a flesh bucket. When the nervous electricity of this 'light of life' was sparked in Adam's flesh, his muscles contracted and he drew breath and became a living/Chay soul/Nephesh. Or, a "living creature" as those two Hebrew words Chay Nephesh are translated, concerning all the animals in Gen.1.

But the scriptures also reveal, contextually, that the soul is the functioning brain which manifests as mind/will/emotions, which is a very accepted definition of Christiandom. And in the Greek it actually comes from the word PSUCHE from which we etymologically get words like phycho/psychology/psychiactric. All words dealing with the brain realm.

But the best definition I think there is for the two is that the 'spirit' is the animating life force of a triune human being, and the 'soul' is the motivating life force (I WILL, I WON'T, I REPENT). And the spirit makes the FLESH MOVE, but the soul determines WHEN and WHERE we will go.

There are scriptures though which do just use the word souls to refer to people. And that's one of the reasons this is really just a bit illusive no matter how 'hard' some one believes they think 'they're right'.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Romans 2: 5-10, John 5: 28-29, Matthew 25: 31-46, and Rev. 20: 12-14.

Then please come back and tell me how you think that you will obtain eternal life without good works when Jesus taught that they are a necessity.

I will assume you believe this is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, correct? As a Protestant I would disagree (no shock there, eh?). I see those verses telling us that those who try to live our lives like Christ will be rewarded, though belief in Messiah is also required. There are many out there that do good works, just not in Christ's name and He won't know them. We do good works because we love Messiah and try to be like Him not because we think it will get us to heaven.

 

[tucker58]

No problem! There's a lot to be looked at because this touches on other doctrines. As you've already asked about Heaven and Hell. I believe that Hades is the grave, Gehenna is the Lake of Fire that John writes of in Revelation and it is a physical location outside of Jerusalem. Tartarus is a place reserved for demons. I believe in Heaven, but I don't believe that people go there. The promised inheritance is the land. not Heaven. The idea of going into the Heavens is actually a Greek belief, not a Biblical one. At the time of the NT the popular belief among the Greeks about the dead was that after they died they left the body and ascended into the heavens. As more and more Gentiles became Christians they brought their old beliefs with them and as time went on and things got farther from the apostles this idea began to creep into the faith.

Before I said that man returns to the dust and the breath of God returns to Him. I said that man of the dust of the earth. God actually called Adam dust.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

In Ezekiel God gives a picture of the Resurrection. It's interesting how He explains it. All of the red words are the word ruach, it's all the same word. After giving the vision to Ezekiel He explains what it means. Notice in verse 14, after putting the bodies back together God says that He will put "His" Spirit in them and they will live. Notice He didn't say He would put their spirit back into them, but rather it is His Spirit that is in them and they live. That's the same thing we see in Gen 2:7

Ezekiel 37 and Ruach

1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Eze 37:1-14 KJV)
Red = Ruwach
Breath, wind, spirit.

John 14
14Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

John 14:1-3 would seem to indicate that we will go to live with Lord Jesus in His father's house. And that He will come and will recieve us unto Himself and that where He is we will be also.

And the Old Testament does agree with what you are saying Butch5. Dead is dead until the coming of the Messiah. And what you are presenting is the Jewish belief and the old law. As a Christian we come under the new law and under the new law it is possible to become an adopted child of the Father into the Heavenly Family and go to live with the Father and the Son where it is that they dwell. Butch5, you do not have that option because you come under the old law. When you are dead you are dead and you stay dead until the return of the Messiah to Earth just like the Jewish folks do. So what you are saying is true about yourself, but it is not true when it comes to the rest of us. You can disagree, but that does not change things.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus did not come to bring a sword among those who claim to be His. His prayer was that all who believe upon Him might be one. (John 17). You have taken this entirely out of context of Matthew 10. Go back and look at what surrounds this verse. It is a description of how those who do not believe will persecute and hate believers, not a warning about interfamilial arguments among believers.

His words are spirit...and I have not represented them incorrectly. You are correct at the level you are perceiving it - but we fight not against flesh and blood...so then, we should not just consider it as such.

For those who will consider the Spirit (who have ears to hear), the quarreling is between the flesh and the spirit. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. That is the true nature of our problem.

 

[Four Angels Standing]

What I'm saying is that when believers die they do not go to be with Christ. They also do not go to Heaven.

You're entitled to believe that as your destiny.
Don't try to argue other people out of their understanding of scripture that states something different.

When did this thread turn into a debate with Butch5 leading and about the triune nature of man?
This is entirely off topic of the OP.

 

[Butch5]

I'll check this out, thanks again. I definitely don't mind reading other things it's what I do, I enjoy studying.

You're welcome! If you have any questions feel free to ask.

 

[Butch5]

John 14
14Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

John 14:1-3 would seem to indicate that we will go to live with Lord Jesus in His father's house. And that He will come and will recieve us unto Himself and that where He is we will be also.

And the Old Testament does agree with what you are saying Butch5. Dead is dead until the coming of the Messiah. And what you are presenting is the Jewish belief and the old law. As a Christian we come under the new law and under the new law it is possible to become an adopted child of the Father into the Heavenly Family and go to live with the Father and the Son where it is that they dwell. Butch5, you do not have that option because you come under the old law. When you are dead you are dead and you stay dead until the return of the Messiah to Earth just like the Jewish folks do. So what you are saying is true about yourself, but it is not true when it comes to the rest of us. You can disagree, but that does not change things.

If you read the passage is context it's pretty clear that it's not talking about going to Heaven. Look at what Jesus said a few verses earlier.

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. (Jn. 13:33 KJV)

Jesus said where He was going they couldn't come. Notice in John 14:3 Jesus said He would come again so that they could be with Him. So, in order for them to be with Him, He has to come back because they can't go.

God gave His revelation to man over a period of time. It began with Adam and continued to Revelation. The OT is clear that the dead are dead. We see no different teaching in the NT. Your claim that there was change in the NT cannot be substantiated from Scripture. There is no change. As I pointed out, Paul said to the Corinthians that if there is no resurrection then those who had died in Christ had perished. He didn't say they were Jesus, he said the perished. The only hope Paul gives them is the Resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

You're entitled to believe that as your destiny.
Don't try to argue other people out of their understanding of scripture that states something different.

When did this thread turn into a debate with Butch5 leading and about the triune nature of man?
This is entirely off topic of the OP.

It didn't become a debate. People asked questions and I answered them. If you have no interest in knowing the truth that is your prerogative. However, not everyone is satisfied with, "just believe it because the pastor said it". Some people actually look deeply enough into these doctrines to see that there a logical fallacies and inconsistencies in them and they question them. That is a wise thing to do since we have 2000 years of man's baggage added the Scrpitures.

 

[tucker58]

If you read the passage is context it's pretty clear that it's not talking about going to Heaven. Look at what Jesus said a few verses earlier.

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. (Jn. 13:33 KJV)

Jesus said where He was going they couldn't come. Notice in John 14:3 Jesus said He would come again so that they could be with Him. So, in order for them to be with Him, He has to come back because they can't go.

God gave His revelation to man over a period of time. It began with Adam and continued to Revelation. The OT is clear that the dead are dead. We see no different teaching in the NT. Your claim that there was change in the NT cannot be substantiated from Scripture. There is no change. As I pointed out, Paul said to the Corinthians that if there is no resurrection then those who had died in Christ had perished. He didn't say they were Jesus, he said the perished. The only hope Paul gives them is the Resurrection.

Butch5 , your message and the way you present the scriptural proof to support that message is the same message and use of scriptural proof that the Jehovah Witness organization uses to give validity to their beliefs, with also having a group of guys (a study group) that tell them what the Bible says. And their foundation for all of this is that the whole Bible is the Word of God, so therefore the Old Testament is as valid as the New Testament and the New Testament has to be able to be explained or understood by that which is written in the Old Testament. And you like they are attempting to negate the the gift that is our Lord and Savior and His gift of the New Law and take Christianity back to the Old Law that existed before the coming of our Lord and Savior and to reduce our Christ Jesus to being the old Messiah that is still to come. The Old Testament is the old word of God and a history of God's relationship with His chosen people. The New Testament is the new word of God as the Father of Lord Jesus and our Father that is in Heaven.

Butch5 , why do you think that the Jewish religious leadership establishment had our Lord and Savior strung up? He was strung up because He was delivering a message that was changing the whole Jewish religion, a religion that had been followed for hundreds of years or more, into something else. Even some of His disciples, who were Jewish, had trouble believing what it was that He was saying, which is why He kept saying, "If you do not believe my words, then believe my works." I am the Son of the Father that is in Heaven, He said, and if you do not believe me, then explain how I can do what I can do. Butch5, the old law says that you die until the coming of the prophecied messiah. The new law/word of God says that the Messiah has now come and that we now have to opportunity through our Christ, that Messiah, to become the adopted children of the Father that is in Heaven and join His family in Heaven. The old law says that that is not possible. And because you Butch5 are attempting to take Chrisianity back to the old law, as the Jehovah Witness organization is also attempting to do, you also say that that is not possible just like the Jewish religious establishment durring the time that Our Lord and Savior walked this Earth said that it is not possible. Butch5, you and the others like you want to negate the new law and the love and grace that our Lord and Savior brought to the table of humankind and take us all back to the Old Law.

And you are attempting to do this in a Christian (those that come under the new law) message board in what started out to be the Controversial Christian Theology forum which is set up to give those of us that come under the new law an opportunity to "outreach" to you .

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 , your message and the way you present the scriptural proof to support that message is the same message and use of scriptural proof that the Jehovah Witness organization uses to give validity to their beliefs, with also having a group of guys (a study group) that tell them what the Bible says. And their foundation for all of this is that the whole Bible is the Word of God, so therefore the Old Testament is as valid as the New Testament and the New Testament has to be able to be explained or understood by that which is written in the Old Testament. And you like they are attempting to negate the the gift that is our Lord and Savior and His gift of the New Law and take Christianity back to the Old Law that existed before the coming of our Lord and Savior and to reduce our Christ Jesus to being the old Messiah that is still to come. The Old Testament is the old word of God and a history of God's relationship with His chosen people. The New Testament is the new word of God as the Father of Lord Jesus and our Father that is in Heaven.

Butch5 , why do you think that the Jewish religious leadership establishment had our Lord and Savior strung up? He was strung up because He was delivering a message that was changing the whole Jewish religion, a religion that had been followed for hundreds of years or more, into something else. Even some of His disciples, who were Jewish, had trouble believing what it was that He was saying, which is why He kept saying, "If you do not believe my words, then believe my works." I am the Son of the Father that is in Heaven, He said, and if you do not believe me, then explain how I can do what I can do. Butch5, the old law says that you die until the coming of the prophecied messiah. The new law/word of God says that the Messiah has now come and that we now have to opportunity through our Christ, that Messiah, to become the adopted children of the Father that is in Heaven and join His family in Heaven. The old law says that that is not possible. And because you Butch5 are attempting to take Chrisianity back to the old law, as the Jehovah Witness organization is also attempting to do, you also say that that is not possible just like the Jewish religious establishment durring the time that Our Lord and Savior walked this Earth said that it is not possible. Butch5, you and the others like you want to negate the new law and the love and grace that our Lord and Savior brought to the table of humankind and take us all back to the Old Law.

And you are attempting to do this in a Christian (those that come under the new law) message board in what started out to be the Controversial Christian Theology forum which is set up to give those of us that come under the new law an opportunity to "outreach" to you .

What are you talking about. Firstly, I've not mentioned the Old Law. If you think the OT and the NT are two completely different things then you have much to learn. Yes, Jesus is the OT Messiah, that is in Scripture.

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matt. 16:13-16 KJV)

The Christ is the Messiah.

Paul told the Corinthians.

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. (1 Cor. 10:1-6 KJV)

Also, the salvation of Man begins with the promise to Abraham. So, Old Testament is not only relevant, it's crucial.

If one ignores the OT they cannot have a good grasp of the NT.

 

[Four Angels Standing]

Well, we all ought to be ashamed.

Those that ought to be ashamed are those that teach falsely and are smug about it. We are to challenge such, per the scriptures, and not stand idle when the truth of Christ is corrupted by those of ill intent.

 

[MoonofIsaiah]

At this stage of page 9 and new to this thread, I'd say the first post is being proved true and in abundance.

I'll check this out, thanks again. I definitely don't mind reading other things it's what I do, I enjoy studying.

If you cherish your soul don't study too hard save to realize those information links are straight out of Hell and are apostasy in print.
The false teaching of soul sleep is not and never was biblical.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 will tell you that. As will, Hebrews 9:27. Jesus made his promise under his authority and deity as God himself to the thief that suffered beside him on a cross in, Luke 23:42-43 . On that day that thief would be with Christ in paradise. Paul , here in King James Version, speaks of the difference between this life and afterward with God. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:(For we walk by faith, not by sight. ) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Also, I'd make the forewarning to you that any cult that claims it teaches from way back where they found the original texts of the patriarchs is lying to you.
Any credible bible scholar will tell you that what are called autographs, original writings pertaining to the first scripture, the writings that were credited to the disciples and onward, are not available. We have copies of copies. In fact, there is a great debate session between the Fundy turned atheism promoter who is still a tenured professor unfortunately, Bart Ehrman and a NT professor, Dr. Daniel Wallace, on that very topic; copies of copies from the autographs. I'll see if I can find it and I'll post it here.

It is said when one teaching is wrong all other is suspect. When the false teaching, the unbiblical outright lie, of soul sleep is taught as part of God's plan, all else is to be scrutinized very carefully.

Don't be led to Hell by false cults wearing the name of Christ.


Here you go:

And this is the full collection of their debates and also various topics of interest with Dr. Wallace. Wallace & Ehrman You Tube
Keep in mind, Wallace and Ehrman have known each other for over 30 years. This isn't a meeting of stranger opponents.

 

[Butch5]

At this stage of page 9 and new to this thread, I'd say the first post is being proved true and in abundance. If you cherish your soul don't study too hard save to realize those information links are straight out of Hell and are apostasy in print.
The false teaching of soul sleep is not and never was biblical.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 will tell you that. As will, Hebrews 9:27. Jesus made his promise under his authority and deity as God himself to the thief that suffered beside him on a cross in, Luke 23:42-43 . On that day that thief would be with Christ in paradise. Paul , here in King James Version, speaks of the difference between this life and afterward with God. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:(For we walk by faith, not by sight. ) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Also, I'd make the forewarning to you that any cult that claims it teaches from way back where they found the original texts of the patriarchs is lying to you.
Any credible bible scholar will tell you that what are called autographs, original writings pertaining to the first scripture, the writings that were credited to the disciples and onward, are not available. We have copies of copies. In fact, there is a great debate session between the Fundy turned atheism promoter who is still a tenured professor unfortunately, Bart Ehrman and a NT professor, Dr. Daniel Wallace, on that very topic; copies of copies from the autographs. I'll see if I can find it and I'll post it here.

It is said when one teaching is wrong all other is suspect. When the false teaching, the unbiblical outright lie, of soul sleep is taught as part of God's plan, all else is to be scrutinized very carefully.

Don't be led to Hell by false cults wearing the name of Christ.


Here you go:

And this is the full collection of their debates and also various topics of interest with Dr. Wallace. Wallace & Ehrman You Tube
Keep in mind, Wallace and Ehrman have known each other for over 30 years. This isn't a meeting of stranger opponents.

They're pretty strong words considering that you can't prove the Gnostic doctrine that most Christians today believe. Not only can't you prove it, you can't even find the idea in scripture.

If you actually read those passages in context instead of doing the typically proof-texting and did some research you'd see that they don't mean what you guys claim.

It's pretty amazing that you guys say this stuff and all you can do if pick a sentence from and one from other and another from 3 books away and say this is what the Scriptures teach. The proof-texting is the very reason there is some much confusion and error in the Faith.