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is anger ever a useful emotion?

Vylo

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Anger gives me that blissful moment of surpressed inhibition and rush of adrenaline needed to vanquish my enemies with no thoughts towards the consequences.

JK :)

Anger isn't bad, so long as you can keep it focused away from harming people. It can actually drive you at times to accomplish things you might not normally be able to do.
 
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nb_christseeker

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unfortunately, since people often come up with their own gods, God has to go and prove that he is the one and only true God. Take 1st Kings ch. 18. The land is in a state of drought but here Elijah is pouring tons of precious water on the altar. Just read this... its classic.

1Ki 18:17-40
(17) And it came to pass when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said to him, Is it you, the troubler of Israel?
(18) And Elijah said, I have not troubled Israel, but you and your father's house have, by forsaking the commandments of Jehovah, and following the false god Baal.
(19) And now go and gather to me all Israel to mount Carmel, and the 450 prophets of Baal, and the 400 prophets of the Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table.
(20) So Ahab sent to all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel.
(21) Then Elijah drew near to all the people, and said, "How long do you waver between two opinions? if Jehovah be God, follow him; and if Baal, follow him". And the people answered him not a word.
(22) And Elijah said to the people, I, only I, remain a prophet of Jehovah; and Baal's prophets are 450 men.
(23) Let them therefore give us two bulls: and let them choose one bull for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and put it on the wood, and put no fire; and I will sacrifice the other bull, and put it on the wood, and put no fire.
(24) And you call on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of Jehovah; and the god that answers by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, That sounds good to us.
(25) And Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, Choose one bull for yourselves, and sacrifice it first; for you are the many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire.
(26) And they took the bull which had been given them, and sacrificed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying, O Baal, answer us! But there was no voice, and none answered. And they leaped about the altar that had been made.
(27) And it came to pass at noon that Elijah mocked them and said, Cry aloud; for he is a god; for maybe he is deep in thought, or busy, or travelling, perhaps he is asleep, and will awake.
(28) And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with swords and spears, till the blood gushed out upon them.
(29) And it came to pass when midday was past, that they prophesied until the time of the offering up of the oblation; but there was neither voice, nor any that answered, nor any attention.
(30) Then Elijah said to all the people, Draw near to me. And all the people drew near to him. And he repaired the altar of Jehovah which was broken down.
(31) And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of Jehovah came saying, Israel shall be thy name;
(32) and with the stones he built an altar in the name of Jehovah, and made a trench round about the altar, of the capacity of two measures of seed;
(33) and he put the wood in order, and cut the bull in pieces, and laid it on the wood. And he said, Fill four pitchers with water, and pour it on the burnt-offering, and on the wood.
(34) And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
(remember, they are in a DROUGHT, trying to light the bull on FIRE)
(35) And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
(36) And it came to pass at the time of the offering up of the oblation, that Elijah the prophet drew near, and said, Jehovah, God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things by your word.
(37) Answer me, Jehovah, answer me, that this people may know that you, Jehovah, are God, and that you have turned their heart back again.
(38) And the fire of Jehovah fell, and consumed the burnt-offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
(39) And all the people saw it , and they fell on their faces and said, Jehovah, he is God! Jehovah, he is God!
(40) And Elijah said to them, Seize the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape! And they seized them; and Elijah brought them down to the torrent of Kishon, and slaughtered them there.

God is king, and he doesn't want anyone to usurp that power or position. Its rightfully His, because HE MADE EVERYTHING, among many other reasons. God made the times, he doesn't have to conform to the times.
 
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ThinkerThinker

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TheThirdLink said:
God does not bow His knee to you, if anything…


I know that but if God made humans then he also defined the fundamental rules of their minds. Then he placed the principle that we can only form strong, lasting relationships with things that are acceptable to us. Then he placed the principle that we need to reject elements in our society that threatens the stability of that society, such as murderers. I accept you can put any old junk in the mind but the fundamental principles are hardwired and not of our doing. So if God is a baby killer and he made my mind not to be able to form a relationship with an unrepentant killer then how does he expect me to accept him?


TheThirdLink said:
Even in the old days kings beheaded their subjects for speaking to them with such an attitude. …


Yes, well. Can you imagine the out cry if anyone did that today? As I’ve said, we have moved on a bit.



TheThirdLink said:
The servant is not greater than his lord. Don't think you are greater than God. It will never happen in an eternity's time. The difference is God is a merciful king. We're just flesh, my friend. And even our souls are pitiful compared to Him. …


Well, that’s exactly my point. If God is greater then it has to be greater in the only way my mind is capable of understanding the word ‘greater’ and that is by referencing it to something else whose greatness I am capable of judging (that’s the way God made us, right?). So if God is greater it has to be greater than the greatest human I know and the greatest human I know does not kill babies but rather is caring, wise and love others (he is human so he does get angry ;) ) )


TheThirdLink said:
He will not change to the ways of our society. We are a sinful society, He is perfect. If He changed to be sinful like us, it would mean our doom. …


I would hope not, but I would also expect he is infinitely ahead of us and not the same as our more barbaric ancestors.


TheThirdLink said:
Anger is not always bad:




It’s never bad. It’s a human emotion. God created that emotion in us for a reason. It’s there to focus the mind and help us survive when we are threatened. It is how we react when we feel anger that could be wrong.





The Midge said:
I don't know if what you describe is very civilized or if it is I would doubt that civilization is worth while. ????



That’s just a pessimistic outlook that I don’t subscribe to. I think we have a wonderful, very exciting civilization which is not perfect but progressing nicely.





The Midge said:
Is nothing special or worthwhile enough for you to get emotional? Do you really mean that there is nothing that I could do to you or another that would not trigger an out rage to your sense of morality? Have you no passion?
The Midge said:
All this reasonableness, and not being offensive is disengenous- I think what you are saying is that nothing is worthwhile. You need to get a sense of how outrageous the money changers were being. They were charging people to meet with God! Would you say that we should meter and charge for air by the cubic meter????




Me not passionate? How dare you ;) ) I am passionate about life, about my wife and daughter, about my job. And yes, at times, I do become angry and it shows my humanness and my fallibility but I always think afterwards that it was pointless and ineffective to get angry. You don’t need to be angry to indicate something is worthwhile and you don’t need to get angry to solve a problem.



The money changers were outrageous but that was not the way to deal with the problem. None of those people kicked out in that way was any closer to truly understanding what they were doing wrong or changing their point of view. They just experienced what they probably regarded as some nut kicking them around. I’m sure they were all back the next day.



Personally I think you both are trying to deal with this the wrong way. Here is a God that seems to act in a barbaric fashion, in today’s standards of enlightenment, and you try to say it’s OK because he is god and we just need to accept it because he knows better and maybe we don’t understand it all.

I would rather like to think God is not a barbaric, baby murdering, monster and that my idea of what a good, love motivated God is, is closer to the mark than what you are proposing, and then sit down and try to figure out a way to reconcile his old testament actions with my understanding of a wise, loving, god. At least, if I get it reconciled I will end up with a god I can accept rather than one I have to accept by applying double standards.
 
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ThinkerThinker

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nb_christseeker said:
btw, it is a very bad idea to call God evil, for he is holy and is in charge, and he takes great offense to that. Repent immediately.



nb_christseeker, I appreciate your concern for my wellbeing and asking me to safe myself from my own foolishness but I think you got it completely wrong. I wanted to answer you in private but I think it’s better if I clarify myself to everyone.



I do not think God is evil but the way some Christians describe him makes it sound like he is evil. They say God kills innocent first-borns and they accept this as OK because God did it. This is totally unacceptable to me and if there is repenting to be done it should be from them for attributing such evil to a loving, caring God. I cannot accept the killing of innocent babies by anyone as anything but grotesque evil.



It would have been a much better approach to say that our understanding of good and evil is relevant to the times we live in and we cannot judge the actions of those that lived in more primitive times by today’s standards. The fact that their kings beheading people for being insulting cannot be judge under then same measure as we would judge our leaders today. It was different times requiring different action.



In the same way God acted in accordance with what was required in those times. He did things in a way that was most effective in dealing with the people of that time and killing innocent babies was what was required under those circumstances. If he did it today he would be universally condemned and rejected by all decent, clear thinking, human beings. In the same way, if he tried to deal with people a thousand year ago in a manner that would be effective today they would have though he had lost his nerve and his marbles.



You have to see things in context. To insinuate that God will do today what he did then because he is still the same God is to call him evil because such a deed will be evil in today’s civilized society. It was not evil THEN and in THAT context and THAT is why God is not evil. I also do not think for one moment God did it out of anger but out of necessity. To do it out of anger would imply he is not in control of himself and is led by his emotions. Again, he might have said to the people “I am angry” because that is the language they understood and anger was an integral part of their society and the way they dealt with things. Jesus’ anger at the moneychangers was probably the only language they understood and again, in that context, it was probably the best way to act, but I do not for one moment think Jesus was truly angry or led by his anger.
 
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CSMR

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Yes, I think "righteous" anger - judgemental anger - is an essential emotion, because it gives us a picture of what God's judgement is like.
(Once we know that the person we are righteously angry at is no worse than we are however, then the anger should go away but the picture hopefully remain - whether it does or not it is still useful).
 
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Hydra009

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Nietzsche said:
is anger ever a good emotion? do you think Genghis Kahn could of conquered half the land he did if he wasn’t angry? no do you think Patton would of been that motivated if he wasn’t angry? no see being anger ROCKS!!!!
I was thinking the same way. Anger is harmful most of the time, but there are some occassions when it is beneficial. In life-or-death struggles, such as war, it probably wouldn't hurt the combatants' chances to be angry.
 
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waterbear

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I don't think anger is ever useful. Ditto for fear (fear not to be confused with caution). It isn't very tricky to translate anger into sadness, which is not as potentially destructive. Fear usually goes away if you face the fear. Consequently, there is no good reason to have anger or fear :p
 
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The Midge

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ThinkerThinker said:
That’s just a pessimistic outlook that I don’t subscribe to. I think we have a wonderful, very exciting civilization which is not perfect but progressing nicely.
A Civilisation that contains nothing that will make you angry if it is violated, no value that if it broken does not cause shock and outrage is a pretty hollow one. We are not there yet (thank God!) but we are becoming more of an "anything goes" society.

Me not passionate? How dare you ;) ) I am passionate about life, about my wife and daughter, about my job. And yes, at times, I do become angry and it shows my humanness and my fallibility but I always think afterwards that it was pointless and ineffective to get angry. You don’t need to be angry to indicate something is worthwhile and you don’t need to get angry to solve a problem.
Of course you are! And you would get pretty angry if I tried to harm them wouldn't you? Because they are worth it. I'm sure that anger would make you do something possitive to protect them.


The money changers were outrageous but that was not the way to deal with the problem. None of those people kicked out in that way was any closer to truly understanding what they were doing wrong or changing their point of view. They just experienced what they probably regarded as some nut kicking them around. I’m sure they were all back the next day.
May be the money changers would be back. Human corruptness is like that. I think this incident gives us a clue to who Jesus was.

There a stories in the OT of people dieing because they violated God's Holy day, taking booty that was to be consecrated and sacrificed to God, for touching the Arch which was dedicated to God. Jesus did things and said things that implied he was God. If so when he saw something happening in his temple that was deflamatory and offensive to him how would you expect him to react and be consistent with those OT accounts?

Jesus ministry was that of a teacher and prophet (before defeating evil on the Cross). It was his task to teach and proclaim the message of the Kingdom of God not to run the temple. This action he demonstrated how offensive this was to God. Funny how all the guards and traders (who were armed and outnumbered Jesus) were unable to lift a finger to stop him!

Personally I think you both are trying to deal with this the wrong way. Here is a God that seems to act in a barbaric fashion, in today’s standards of enlightenment, and you try to say it’s OK because he is god and we just need to accept it because he knows better and maybe we don’t understand it all.
I would rather like to think God is not a barbaric, baby murdering, monster and that my idea of what a good, love motivated God is, is closer to the mark than what you are proposing, and then sit down and try to figure out a way to reconcile his old testament actions with my understanding of a wise, loving, god. At least, if I get it reconciled I will end up with a god I can accept rather than one I have to accept by applying double standards.
In todays standards of enlightenment- then you have to suppose that your societies standards are indeed something to be looked up to and we are in fact enlightend. Much or the Arab world are shocked by what our society permits!

What we fail to grasp these days is Holiness. God is pure, everything associated with Him should be pure- that is not tainted by sin. Isreal saw it because they encountered God and they were terrified by what they expereinced. Goodness in its purest form is not warm fuzzy lovey-dovey and cute. It is diametricaly opposed to evil- with which even the best of us are too closely associated. The Isrealites considered close encounters with God very hazardous for this very reason.

You are right we do not understand God or even the extent of our own tendency to evil. So by what criterea can we judge? Where there is a missalignment of standards there is the possibility that either or both of them could be wrong.

Further more I'm not sure about where you get enough evidence from the texts to determine that God's actions amounted to murder or were barbaric. The texts are not sufficient to determine reasons or motives and rely recount that these things happened and may not have been pleasant.
 
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CSMR

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waterbear said:
I don't think anger is ever useful. Ditto for fear (fear not to be confused with caution). It isn't very tricky to translate anger into sadness, which is not as potentially destructive. Fear usually goes away if you face the fear. Consequently, there is no good reason to have anger or fear :p
There are "destructive" - or negative - elements in religion which are not necessarily bad.
E.g.: Jesus: "Blessed are the mourners"
Ecclesiastes: "Sorrow is better than mirth, for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better"
Or see how the David's anger in the Psalms at evildoers, or the sorrow and fear for sin, are the emotions by which he expresses his religion and understands his relation to God.
 
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waterbear

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Mourning and sadness inflict pain on yourself with a purpose, if used correctly. The end result is a form of learning to avoid certain behaviors that make you said, or come to peace with behaviors of others that trouble you. In other words, sadness can lead to personal growth.

I'm not sure the New Testament advocates righteous anger ... pity the evil doers, don't get angry at them!
 
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