Is an afterlife purely imaginary?

3sigma

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You are an atheist so you already reject the one authority and expert on the afterlife. Since you do not believe in Jesus, then of course you will not accept his statement of the afterlife.
So you are saying that out of all of the billions of humans who have ever lived there is only one who could ever relate his experience of an afterlife? This person allegedly lived and died around 2,000 years ago so he can hardly speak about it today. All you would have to go on would be something he wrote about it. Tell me, what did Jesus write about the afterlife? In particular, what did he write about it after he died? You say I wouldn’t accept his statements about an afterlife, but can you even show me any statements he made about it? I doubt you can. I think you have nothing other than some tales from an ancient storybook of oft-refuted nonsense written mainly by unknown authors. Do you really think that is a sound reason to believe an afterlife is real?

Cause anyone who genuinely believes in God as the authority, will trust what he has to say on the matter since he created it. And to the person who believes, trust in his words is sound enough.
Again, what did your God ever actually write about an afterlife? You aren’t trusting your God’s words; you are trusting the words some unknown author wrote in an ancient storybook of nonsense. Do you really think that is sound reasoning?

Yes this could open a plethora of questions for you to try and play games with. "Well what sound reason do you have to trust God?" "How do you know which God is right?" "Why trust what God says?" etc etc etc...
All good questions for which I presume you have no reasonable answers.

You just want to end this with you getting the last word in that "There is no sound reasoning for it then and everyone who believes in an afterlife is insecure. All of you are unsound minds, fools, morons. Haha!!! Bow down!!"
So given that there is no proof, no sound, objective evidence and no sound reason for you to believe an afterlife is real, please tell us why you do believe it?

And here is you're crown...
* * * \|O|/ * * *
\o\o\o|O|o/o/o/
(<><>O<><>)
'========='
Last edited by Skilletdude; 15th February 2010 at 09:53 AM. Reason: Maybe got a bit too immature at the very end so I deleted the coronation song :D
Yes, this ending is so much more mature now.
 
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3sigma

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Sound reasoning leads me to believe that George Washington was the first president, though if I were sufficiently skeptical, there's no way you'd be able to "prove" it to me.
If you were unreasonably sceptical there would be no way to prove it to you. However, a reasonable person would understand that the extant physical evidence we have is sufficient to verify that George Washington was the first president. His Inaugural Address, with his signature, still survives in the National Archives. There are thousands of other papers and letters written by Washington still existing today and available for you to check.

Is there any such evidence that an afterlife is real? Can you show me any documents written by Jesus describing an afterlife?
 
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3sigma

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I told you there are many "reasons", but no fact.
I’m sure there are reasons that people believe in an afterlife, but given that there are no facts supporting that belief, those reasons could hardly be called sound. The most likely reasons people believe in an afterlife are that they are insecure and credulous.

If there is reason, then it is logic and it is not imaginary.
It isn’t logical if the reasoning isn’t sound. Children have reason to believe in Santa Claus. Authority figures such as their parents tell them that Santa Claus is real and the children are insecure and credulous enough to believe it. However, the fact that they have reason to believe it doesn’t mean Santa Claus isn’t imaginary.
 
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3sigma

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I probably can't really answer your question, but I can give some reasons as to why I believe in an afterlife.
Thank you. Finally, we have an answer that at least makes some sense.

First, I want there to be an afterlife. I want to think that something of me carries on, and that the connections I have with family and loved ones endures. I also want to think that there is some justice on a grander scale, so that when some child suffers extreme poverty and dies an early death, there is something to balance that out.
This appears to be the first step most people take. Belief in an afterlife begins with the desire for it to be true.

So, with that in mind, and balancing it with the skeptical part of my personality (I'm a mathematician and engineer by training), I set out to find ways to convince myself that an afterlife is possible. The person I'm trying to convince here is simply me, so my reasons might not live up to others expectations.
Well, that isn’t really the sceptical approach, is it? The sceptic weighs all evidence for and against and then comes to a conclusion. Setting out to find ways to convince yourself something is true leads to confirmation bias.

I began with reading about NDE and experiences that people had where they have felt they were in contact with the dead. Some were not convincing at all, some were slightly convincing, and one book seemed to actually try to use statistical methods to quantify these contacts, that book seemed to be the most convincing)
Convincing of what, that people begin to have hallucinations when the brain is starved of oxygen and glucose and is no longer processing sensory information correctly? Bear in mind these people are near death. Their bodies and brains are about to die and are certainly not functioning normally. Yes, they have dreams and hallucinations, but you can hardly trust that what they experienced in those hallucinations is real. It is not surprising that, statistically, when people’s brains are placed into the same oxygen depleted state, most of them experience similar sensations. You could say that, statistically, most people see stars when they receive a blow to the head, but that doesn’t mean the stars are real. I think you may find, if you explore this further, that those who don’t believe in an afterlife don’t sense it during a near death experience. It is those who already believe in an afterlife that see a light and feel drawn towards it or have similar sensations of an afterlife. There are more people who believe in an afterlife than those who don’t so it should be expected that, statistically, sensations of an afterlife are in the majority.

I then started thinking, if an afterlife is possible, how would it work, and the best way for me to wrap my head around it is to think of analogies. One analogy that worked well for me was to think about a television set. There are lots of signals sent out, and in a sense, we are always surrounded by thousands of tv shows, but we need the physical tv set to actually be able to hear or see them. If your TV dies, the show you were viewing isn't gone, but you can no longer connect with it.
First, analogies are not evidence. Second, your analogy is backwards. As the body dies, the brain can no longer sense its surroundings so it tries to fill in the gaps with imaginary sensations. When your brain dies, reality hasn’t gone, but you can no longer connect with it. Near death experiences aren’t evidence that an afterlife exists. They are evidence that if you die slowly enough, there is a brief period where your brain is disconnected from your senses and imagines a subjective reality.
 
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AV1611VET

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Probably. Fear of the eternal torture in hell that awaits unbelievers is used by your religion to keep its followers believing.
Um ... no.

We call those who believed at one time, and made a profession of faith as a result, and got truly saved (i.e. was truly born again) --- 'backsliding Christians'.

If they die in a backslid state, they'll still go to Heaven; albeit they will lose rewards.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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Something imaginary exists only in imagination. It lacks factual reality. What sound reason is there to believe an afterlife exists outside imagination or has factual reality?
No, there is nothing existing in our physical world that would suggest life beyond this one.
 
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3sigma

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Um ... no.

We call those who believed at one time, and made a profession of faith as a result, and got truly saved (i.e. was truly born again) --- 'backsliding Christians'.

If they die in a backslid state, they'll still go to Heaven; albeit they will lose rewards.
Fair enough. I expressed that poorly. Fear of the eternal torture in hell that awaits unbelievers is used to convince people to believe. It may not be used to stop religious believers losing their belief, but to convince them to believe in the first place. It is a recruitment tactic. If you don’t believe, you go to hell—believe and be saved. It confirms that fear is one of the causes of religious belief.

3sigma said:
Again, what did Jesus or your God actually write?
[The Bible]
No… The Bible was written mainly by unknown authors. If you disagree then please tell us which books of the Bible were actually written by Jesus and provide some sound, objective evidence to support your claim.
 
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Fear of the eternal torture in hell that awaits unbelievers is used to convince people to believe.
That's kind of a gray area with us.

Of course, we can't tell if a person is truly serious when they pray what we call the sinner's prayer.

Some people pray what we call the sinner's prayer, not from a truly repentant heart, but because they want to use Jesus as nothing more than a 'fire escape.'

They hear a message about Hell, get scared and pray, but whether or not they were truly born again would, of course, be up to God.

The reputation for the single most-powerful sermon ever preached on U.S. soil goes to a message called Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.

Here is an excerpt from the site:
"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" is a typical sermon of the Great Awakening, emphasizing the widely held belief that Hell is a real and functional place. Edwards hoped that the imagery and message of his sermon would awaken his audience to the horrific reality that he argued awaited them should they continue without Christ.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_hands_of_an_angry_god#cite_note-0 The underlying point, is that God has given humanity a chance to rectify their sins. Edwards says that it is the will of God that keeps wicked men from the depths of Hell; this act of restraint has given humanity a chance to change their ways and return to Christ.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_hands_of_an_angry_god#cite_note-1 Jonathan Edwards' sermon continues to be the leading example of a Great Awakening sermon and is still used in religious and academic settings today.
It is so easy to get saved.
Romans 10:9-10 said:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 
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TheOtherHockeyMom

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Thank you. Finally, we have an answer that at least makes some sense.


This appears to be the first step most people take. Belief in an afterlife begins with the desire for it to be true.


Well, that isn&#8217;t really the sceptical approach, is it? The sceptic weighs all evidence for and against and then comes to a conclusion. Setting out to find ways to convince yourself something is true leads to confirmation bias.
That's true, but I'm not approaching this like a scientist. I have a vested interest in convincing myself it is true, when my faith in an afterlife is strong, my life here on earth is happier. When my faith in an afterlife is shaky, I experience depression, an exaggerated fear of death and an inability to function at my highest potential. So, even if there is no afterlife, there are benefits for me believing in it. So, I admit confirmation bias and actively seek out readings and research to support the afterlife. Like I said, my goal isn't to convince skeptics, just to quiet the skeptical part of my mind.
Convincing of what, that people begin to have hallucinations when the brain is starved of oxygen and glucose and is no longer processing sensory information correctly? Bear in mind these people are near death. Their bodies and brains are about to die and are certainly not functioning normally. Yes, they have dreams and hallucinations, but you can hardly trust that what they experienced in those hallucinations is real. It is not surprising that, statistically, when people&#8217;s brains are placed into the same oxygen depleted state, most of them experience similar sensations. You could say that, statistically, most people see stars when they receive a blow to the head, but that doesn&#8217;t mean the stars are real. I think you may find, if you explore this further, that those who don&#8217;t believe in an afterlife don&#8217;t sense it during a near death experience. It is those who already believe in an afterlife that see a light and feel drawn towards it or have similar sensations of an afterlife. There are more people who believe in an afterlife than those who don&#8217;t so it should be expected that, statistically, sensations of an afterlife are in the majority.


First, analogies are not evidence. Second, your analogy is backwards. As the body dies, the brain can no longer sense its surroundings so it tries to fill in the gaps with imaginary sensations. When your brain dies, reality hasn&#8217;t gone, but you can no longer connect with it. Near death experiences aren&#8217;t evidence that an afterlife exists. They are evidence that if you die slowly enough, there is a brief period where your brain is disconnected from your senses and imagines a subjective reality.

Actually, the particular book I was thinking of was about contacting people who were long dead. Basically, they set up a study where a few people who claimed to be mediums tried to contact a dead relative of a subject, and filled out a questionnaire. They also had a control person try to contact the dead relative and fill out the same questionnaire. Assuming they were honest about the results of the study and they used the controls they claimed in the book, there was a statistically significant difference in the number of correct results from the proclaimed medium and the control. I've got the book around somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

I've read some of the explanations of NDE's along the lines of what you say, but I do have to wonder about the few cases I've read of involving NDE's of someone blind from birth that seemed to indicate vision. In a sense, though, it's like we are all fish living in the ocean arguing about whether or not there exists another world where creatures breathe air, not water.

It's interesting, though, that you mention that people who don't believe in the afterlife don't have NDE's. Is there some documentation of that?

One other thing that has me leaning more towards the belief that there is something, the soul, that is beyond our physical body, is the whole concept of free will.

Physical objects don't really have free will. If I pick up a rock and drop it, it doesn't have a choice about how far it falls. If I know all the variables, I can predict exactly where it would land. Objects are governed by laws of physics and chemistry. If you mix two chemicals together, they don't get to choose whether or not they will react, it's pre-determined.

Then, I think about animals. Do they have any free will? If a snake hasn't eaten in a while, if it sees food, it will eat. If a snake has just fed, will it eat readily available food? Can it make a choice, or are its actions completely predetermined by it's biology? Are we just more complex animals? Can we make a choice or does our biology completely determine our actions? If we can make a choice to do one thing or another, what physical mechanism allows us to make that choice? Even massively complex computers do not have free will.
 
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Split Rock

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He says, Himself, why He prepared it --- in writing.I thought you were some kind of Bible scholar at one time?
When did I ever claim to be a "bible scholar?" Just because I can see the Holland Tunnel sized holes in your theology, doesn't mean I need to be a Bible Scholar.

Says you.

The reason you "have none of that for Jesus", is because you automatically (academically?) deny the written Testimony of God's Word.

Does that word "automatically" ring a bell?
You are the one making wild assumptions about scripture, that are not even supported by scripture itself. No where and I do mean no where does it say in the Bible that God wrote the Bible. You know it and I know it.
 
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3sigma

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I have a vested interest in convincing myself it is true, when my faith in an afterlife is strong, my life here on earth is happier. When my faith in an afterlife is shaky, I experience depression, an exaggerated fear of death and an inability to function at my highest potential. So, even if there is no afterlife, there are benefits for me believing in it.
This is what I don’t understand about religious believers. Why can’t you overcome your fear of death and just accept that this life is all you have? Why do you need to pretend that you will never really die to help you cope with life? Are you really so insecure that you can’t function normally without believing some comforting nonsense? I really don’t understand the need for it. I accept the inevitable reality that one day I’m going to die and that will be a permanent end to my consciousness and existence. I’m not eager to die, but I can’t escape it so there is no point in worrying about it. I just accept it. Why can’t you and other religious believers do that?

I've got the book around somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.
It would be helpful if you could. Without some more detail, I can’t comment on it.

I've read some of the explanations of NDE's along the lines of what you say, but I do have to wonder about the few cases I've read of involving NDE's of someone blind from birth that seemed to indicate vision.
There are some studies that indicate that blind people see in their dreams and others that don’t support that conclusion. However, these cases you speak of raise the question of how could people blind from birth possibly know what vision is and whether or not they had experienced it? They may imagine the sensations they experience are “vision”, but given the difficulty of ever knowing what other people experience inside their minds, I remain sceptical of those NDE cases.

It's interesting, though, that you mention that people who don't believe in the afterlife don't have NDE's. Is there some documentation of that?
I didn’t say they don’t have NDEs. I said they don’t see the heaven that religious believers imagine. For example, the Japanese tend to see images of water such as ponds and rivers or they experience non-descript feelings of fear, pain or suffering. The Japanese are predominantly Buddhist and Shintoist with only 2% of them being Christian so it isn’t surprising they don’t see images of God and heaven. Other studies have shown that people tend to see what they expect to see in NDEs. Those who expect to go to hell see fire and brimstone; those who expect to go to heaven see whatever they imagine heaven to be; and those who were raised in a different culture see other things. It suggests that NDEs are the result of the brain creating a subjective reality in the absence of sensory input.
 
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AV1611VET

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You are the one making wild assumptions about scripture, that are not even supported by scripture itself. No where and I do mean no where does it say in the Bible that God wrote the Bible. You know it and I know it.
Do you know what verbal plenary inspiration is (other than 'wild assumptions', that is)?
 
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Split Rock

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Do you know what verbal plenary inspiration is (other than 'wild assumptions', that is)?

Of course I do.... you explained it to me. Verbal Plenary Inspiration, however, does not appear whole anywhere in scripture... does it? As I recall, you need to stitch together different verses from different books written by different authors at different times, out of their original context to cobble it together. And then, only because you want to justify such a "theology" in the first place.
 
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AV1611VET

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As I recall, you need to stitch together different verses from different books written by different authors at different times, out of their original context to cobble it together.
Chuck Missler calls that "spread-spectrum design".

I love that term.

By writing the Bible in spread-spectrum design, you can randomly tear a page out and still get all the major doctrines of the Bible.

To put it the way Chuck Missler puts it:

The Bible was written in spread-spectrum design, which makes It immune to hostile jamming.
 
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TheOtherHockeyMom

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This is what I don’t understand about religious believers. Why can’t you overcome your fear of death and just accept that this life is all you have? Why do you need to pretend that you will never really die to help you cope with life? Are you really so insecure that you can’t function normally without believing some comforting nonsense? I really don’t understand the need for it. I accept the inevitable reality that one day I’m going to die and that will be a permanent end to my consciousness and existence. I’m not eager to die, but I can’t escape it so there is no point in worrying about it. I just accept it. Why can’t you and other religious believers do that?
What would be the benefit to doing this? I believe in an afterlife. If there is one after I die, then great! If not, what was the downside of my going through life believing it?
 
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TheOtherHockeyMom

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I didn’t say they don’t have NDEs. I said they don’t see the heaven that religious believers imagine. For example, the Japanese tend to see images of water such as ponds and rivers or they experience non-descript feelings of fear, pain or suffering. The Japanese are predominantly Buddhist and Shintoist with only 2% of them being Christian so it isn’t surprising they don’t see images of God and heaven. Other studies have shown that people tend to see what they expect to see in NDEs. Those who expect to go to hell see fire and brimstone; those who expect to go to heaven see whatever they imagine heaven to be; and those who were raised in a different culture see other things. It suggests that NDEs are the result of the brain creating a subjective reality in the absence of sensory input.
I wonder, though, if any of the non-believers in an afterlife, have an NDE and then become believers in an afterlife.

I think, however, that the notion of afterlives being experienced in different ways depending on the beliefs and traditions of the person having the NDE are only an issue when the alternatives are either the Christian view of the afterlife as put forth by the Bible literalists and no afterlife at all. I think a lot of people, including some Christians, are open to the possibilities of an afterlife that looks different for different believers, based on the notion that there is one God, but people relate to Him (Her, It?) in different ways.

This is an interesting discussion because on one hand we have an atheist who also doesn't believe in an afterlife (I think one could believe in an afterlife as the conscience continuing to exist in some form after death without believing in God), and on the other hand, we have someone who I'm guessing is coming from the reformed theology side of things, a fairly recent movement in Christianity that says that all essential knowledge is in the Bible, and believers shouldn't also consider reason or the natural world when they try to wrap their head around the concept of God. To a person in this tradition, all questions can be answered by the Bible, and those who don't see the answers as satisfactory are blind to the truth.

Often discussions go like this: "Convince me of the existence of God and/or the afterlife"...."The Bible says God exists and/or heaven and hell exist" ..."The Bible is not convincing, show me a good argument reason, proof or example"..."All essential knowledge is in the Bible" and so on.

So, I thought I'd try to bring in a somewhat different perspective. I like these kinds of discussions, but I am unfortunately going to be disappearing after tonight...vowed to give up these forums for Lent :D
 
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