good you have proven you can quote scripture, but you fail to see that a literal translation if different then an interpretive translation.
One is right and one is wrong.
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
??? Colossians 4:6 your word always in grace—with salt being seasoned—to know how it behoveth you to answer each one. [YLT]
with your word at all times in favor, [with salt being seasoned], to know how it is necessary for you [ each to answer]. [ABP+]
Mat 25:32 And he shall gather together before him all the nations, and he will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the kids of the goats [ABP+]
and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,
and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 'Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; [YLT]
41 Then he will say also to the ones on his left, Go from me! O ones being cursed into the [fire eternal], the one having been prepared for the false accuser and his messengers.
46 And these shall go forth unto [From G2849; penal infliction eternal]; but the righteous unto life eternal [ABP+]
Matthew 3:12 of which the winnowing fork is in his hand, and he shall throughly purge his threshing, and shall gather together his grain into the repository; but the chaff he shall incinerate [fire by inextinguishable] [ABP+]
whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.'
Revelation 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire—this is the second death; 15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire. [YLT]
And death and the unseen were thrown into the Lake of fire. This is the [death second] -- the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if any should not be found [in the scroll of life written he was cast (out)], into the lake of fire. Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. [ABP+] for many are called, and few chosen.' [YLT]
1Jnhn 4:15 whoever may confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God in him doth remain, and he in God;
Titus 1:16 God they profess to know, and in the works they deny Him , being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work disapproved.
Colossians 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things for sake of him, and for him, have been created,
17 and he is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. [YLT]
Colossians 1:16 for in him were created the whole, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- the visible and the unseen; whether power , whether
government , whether principality, whether jurisdiction; the whole by reason of him and in him have been created.
17 And he is in front of all, and the all in him found. [ABP+]
I keep repeating it because you keep repeating arguments against endless torture.
You're not defending dogmatic endless torture so I'm not calling it out.
as I've said I'm not advocating endless torture but I am saying that universalism is irresponsible.
why? because it's not a focus of scripture nor is it a matter of salvation, there is no further gain from this doctrine and it can make us apathetic to
the focus of the gospel.
in the parable of the unforgiving servant a servant is forgiven 10,000 talents by his master. The servant than refuses to forgive 100 denarii and throws the person who can't pay it back in Jail. When the master learns of this he called him a wicked servant and throws him in jail "until he should pay all his debt"
now a universalist sees a finite amount of time because the servant has a finite amount owing which is 10,000 talents. But this is a western way of thinking by demanding a finite number which is not what is in the parable. A talent is the highest measurable money and 10,000 or a "myrios" in the ancient roman world is a word used for an indefinite or in-measurable amount. so when Jesus uses the amount 10,000 talents he is expressing the highest amount of the highest measurement possible and not something meant to be counted.
but, if we were to define it, a talent refers to a weight of gold, about 33kg. 33 kilos of gold today is about $1,400,000 so if we get 10,000 of these you get 14 billion dollars. What master loans his servant $14 billion dollars and then forgives him? we miss the point when we count it out like this and then assign a finite time spend in jail for the servant as we would miss the point of calling 70 times 7 a finite amount of times for forgiveness which is the opening context for this parable. The master shows us how many times we should forgive which is an impossible and immeasurable debt that cannot be paid back, and it is this same measure that the servant is jailed.
does this show us an endless punishment? the context of the parable actually leans towards this and not to universalism.
Nothing anywhere about being released from.perdition.
Do you agree with Vincent that aidios means everlasting?
The word is context driven and I think more often than not it is used to express an indefinable amount of time.We actually seem to agree on something for I see every translation as a small commentary on the original language.
I also agree that we have to study the original word to find out its meaning.
So we have two different meanings from one word aion and its adjective.
1 age and that which pertains to an age
2 eternal, that which is without beginning and without end.
Now you seem to be saying the word aion is so ambiguous that we cannot get a clear picture of exactly what the word means. Is this correct or do you hold to the meaning of eternal?
And if you hold to the meaning of eternal how are we being anymore dogmatic then you are?
That has already been addressed in recent posts in this forum:
Therein is the essence of your error, your equivocating being in Adam by lineage with being in Christ by faith. Paul defines what it means to be, ' in Christ', in Romans 5:1. The rest of the passage has to be read in light of the gospel. You make the same mistake every time you attempt an exposition, intersecting your satirical rants about the lake of fire being forever. Eventually the fires of gehena may go out but only after the wicked are completely destroyed. That's how death and he'll are destroyed, the need for them is gone when the bodies and souls of the children of perdition are completely eliminated.Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image &
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.
“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”
Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Aionion is not the issue. Replace the word with 'X' if you have to, the issue is the scope of the passages in question that simply do not go into this level of meaning to support either end of the spectrum. Marrying 1 tim 4:10 with parables spoken of judgement will also have its limits that I don't think universalist acknowledge. The verse is used as a pretext for all scripture they don't like and sort of is retro fitted over top to interpret it's meaning to irresponsible levels.does it? or does it avoid certain translation of the original language.
Tell me DW is this scripture direct enough for you.
Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men, specially of those that believe, this command and teach.
That is a very plain and direct statement, one which every single believer in eternal torment or annihilation I have ever met so far have no answer to, the only thing they say is it cannot mean what it say because of this scripture or that scripture and each and every time it is a scripture that uses the word aionion.
That should tell you something DW if you really think about it.
Instead of trusting the plainness of scripture in what we are commanded to teach they lean on their own understanding of the word aionion and hold that understanding as truth over the plainness of scripture.
And they do so even when given an understanding of aionion that is in agreement with what we are commanded to teach
It can also indicate forever or something that transcends the ages. It's a literary feature and like most of the Greek, as you say, it's context driven.The word is context driven and I think more often than not it is used to express an indefinable amount of time.
1. Universalism is a "focus of Scripture". It's right there for those with eyes to see it.
Could not anyone say this about whatever position they hold?2. "nor is it a matter of salvation"...Irrelevant. Many doctrines are taught that are not required to be believed to gain salvation. Should we ignore them? No, & Scripture commands to teach universalism (1 Tim.4:9-11).
Could not anyone say this about whatever position they hold?3. "no further gain from this doctrine"? Truth sets free, Jesus said. Freedom is great gain.
Could not anyone say this about whatever position they hold?4. "can make us apathetic to the focus of the gospel"? Tell that to the apostles (e.g. Paul)who evangelized the world. Tell that to the universalist early church fathers who brought Christianity to the world.
he-man that was excellent! You still have not answered the question posed to you, but your response is encouraging!
Why are two clean animals being mentioned by Jesus Christ (sheep & goats) rather than one clean and one unclean?
https://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1-16-compare.html
"Within Him was created (is founded and settled; is built and planted; is brought into being, produced and established) The Whole (all things) -- the things within the heavens, and the things upon the earth (land); the visible things, and the unseen (unable to be seen; invisible) things: whether thrones or lordships (ownership systems) or governments (rulers; leadership systems; sovereignties) or authorities -- The Whole (all things) has been created and continues founded and framed through means of Him, and [proceeds, or was placed] into Him (or: He is the agent and goal of all creation). And He is before (prior to; maintains precedence of) all things, and The Whole (all things) has (have) been placed together and now continues to exist because of Him"
Isaiah 1:11 I wanted not the blood of unclean goatshe-man that was excellent! You still have not answered the question posed to you, but your response is encouraging!
Why are two clean animals being mentioned by Jesus Christ (sheep & goats) rather than one clean and one unclean?
https://www.biblestudytools.com/colossians/1-16-compare.html
"Within Him was created (is founded and settled; is built and planted; is brought into being, produced and established) The Whole (all things) -- the things within the heavens, and the things upon the earth (land); the visible things, and the unseen (unable to be seen; invisible) things: whether thrones or lordships (ownership systems) or governments (rulers; leadership systems; sovereignties) or authorities -- The Whole (all things) has been created and continues founded and framed through means of Him, and [proceeds, or was placed] into Him (or: He is the agent and goal of all creation). And He is before (prior to; maintains precedence of) all things, and The Whole (all things) has (have) been placed together and now continues to exist because of Him"
Could not anyone say this about whatever position they hold?
Could not anyone say this about whatever position they hold?
Could not anyone say this about whatever position they hold?
Could not anyone say this about whatever position they hold?
I like to find one particular verse that defines the context of an expression like ' in Christ', in Romans 5. In the opening verses Paul is crystal clear we are in Christ by faith. Then when that's ignored there's little reason to chase the other arguments in circles.Your reasons are a type of universalist fan hyperbole that offers no unique insight, they could be used by anyone that says their position is best. I didn't answer them because there is nothing to answer. You don't articulate your cause very well.
I didn't answer them because there is nothing to answer. You don't articulate your cause very well.
I keep repeating it because you keep repeating arguments against endless torture.
You're not defending dogmatic endless torture so I'm not calling it out.
as I've said I'm not advocating endless torture but I am saying that universalism is irresponsible.
why? because it's not a focus of scripture nor is it a matter of salvation, there is no further gain from this doctrine and it can make us apathetic to
the focus of the gospel.
Isaiah 1:11 I wanted not the blood of unclean goats
The word is context driven and I think more often than not it is used to express an indefinable amount of time.
Therein is the essence of your error, your equivocating being in Adam by lineage with being in Christ by faith.
Aionion is not the issue. Replace the word with 'X' if you have to, the issue is the scope of the passages in question that simply do not go into this level of meaning to support either end of the spectrum. Marrying 1 tim 4:10 with parables spoken of judgement will also have its limits that I don't think universalist acknowledge. The verse is used as a pretext for all scripture they don't like and sort of is retro fitted over top to interpret it's meaning to irresponsible levels.
It can also indicate forever or something that transcends the ages. It's a literary feature and like most of the Greek, as you say, it's context driven.
Basically, in Eph 5:21 we are told to submit ourselves one to another in the fear of the Lord. The verse that follow, husbands to their wives, wives to their husband etc. They all have one verb in common, submit, that defines the context. Romans 5:1 defines being in Christ as the result of faith in Christ. All in Adam die, in Christ all live, and all others perish in the fires of perdition.and it simply cannot be used to go against what we are commanded to teach is what what you are saying
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?