Is Abortion Murder?

[JacktheCatholic]

In Christianity today one of the biggest dilemnas seems to be whether abortion is murder?

We have the "pro-life" groups and the "pro-choice" groups. They both seem to make great cases for their side of the argument. But what should the Christian side be?

The question here is whether or not abortion is murder. I think we should answer according to our beliefs then look at the legal point of view and then the religous point of view.

*Note: I believe this is a private answer so that no one will know what you chose. At least that is what I selected.

 

[iameternal]

I used to be very adamant in my deceleration of abortion being murder. Now I do not know. What prompted my uncertainty was reading Exodus 21:22-25. Here we find that the miscarried fetus did not require a "life for life" penalty. Rather it was treated as a property dispute, settled by the expecting parents.

I tried to figure this passage out, and have asked many without much of an answer. Through this process I have looked at all the traditional passages that I leaned on to inform my position of it being a person, capable of being murdered. And I began to question whether I had imposed those meanings on them, instead of GLEANING my position from them. Knowing a developed adult from the womb doesn't imply that all fetus' are persons. Rather it simply means that the prophet was actually born and capable of being known, etc. It doesn't speak necessarily to those who don't make it, be it through miscarriage or abortion.

Then I began to accumulate passages in just my devotion time that began to stack up over time.

Jeremiah 20:14-15
Job 3:3-6, 16
Jeremiah 15:10
Eccl. 6:3
Psalm 58:8

And then the census' where new born infants were not to be counted.

So I don't know what to believe any more. I am begining to lean on the idea that the bible doesn't speak on it.

However, I can at the same time acknowledge that the circumstances around every abortion are bad, and indicative of sin. That an abortion would even be necessary, or perceived to be necessary demonstrates how far we have traveled from God, and the need of Him in our lives.

 

[HypnoToad]

I used to be very adamant in my deceleration of abortion being murder. Now I do not know. What prompted my uncertainty was reading Exodus 21:22-25. Here we find that the miscarried fetus did not require a "life for life" penalty. Rather it was treated as a property dispute, settled by the expecting parents.

Actually, that verse is not clear that it is talking about causing a miscarriage, it may just be a premature birth. Notice it says, "but NO serious injury" right after. The baby dying certainly sounds like a "serious injury". Read the footnotes of the NET Bible on this verse. http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm

I tried to figure this passage out, and have asked many without much of an answer. Through this process I have looked at all the traditional passages that I leaned on to inform my position of it being a person, capable of being murdered. And I began to question whether I had imposed those meanings on them, instead of GLEANING my position from them. Knowing a developed adult from the womb doesn't imply that all fetus' are persons. Rather it simply means that the prophet was actually born and capable of being known, etc. It doesn't speak necessarily to those who don't make it, be it through miscarriage or abortion.

Then I began to accumulate passages in just my devotion time that began to stack up over time.

Jeremiah 20:14-15
Job 3:3-6, 16
Jeremiah 15:10
Eccl. 6:3
Psalm 58:8

Can you please explain what those passages have to do with the subject? I don't see any bearing on abortion at all.

And then the census' where new born infants were not to be counted.

Reference?

Psalm 51:5 states that David was a sinner at conception. (Again, if one questions the meaning of this passage, you can check the notes on the NET Bible through the previous link.) Does anything other than a human being (or angels) commit sin?

 

[iameternal]

Actually, that verse is not clear that it is talking about causing a miscarriage, it may just be a premature birth. Notice it says, "but NO serious injury" right after. The baby dying certainly sounds like a "serious injury". Read the footnotes of the NET Bible on this verse.

Well, the "further injury" would be to the woman, where then the "eye for an eye" principle would have come into effect. However the only "injury" that occurred seemingly is the loss of pregnancy, therefore it is treated as a property matter.

Also, even if one is to say "prematue birth," this is essentially a miscarriage. Premies did not receive the same medicaly advanced treatment we do today. So a premature birth was equivalent to stillbirth.

Can you please explain what those passages have to do with the subject? I don't see any bearing on abortion at all.

Simply that they are imagining the better alotment of those who died in their mother's womb. It would go to motive, where we find women today setting abortions for that very reason.

Reference?

ie Numbers 3:15.

Psalm 51:5 states that David was a sinner at conception. (Again, if one questions the meaning of this passage, you can check the notes on the NET Bible through the previous link.) Does anything other than a human being (or angels) commit sin?

Well, he also knew wisdom according to vs 6. So was he both full of wisdom and a sinner at the moment of conception? Isn't the fear of the Lord the BEGINNING of wisdom? And if so, how could he also have been shaped in iniquity, and conceived in sin?

I see the poetic nature of these expressions, describing his shame and humility. I am not sure if it is intended to describe for us the nature of the zygote.

 

[HypnoToad]

[/u]

Well, the "further injury" would be to the woman, where then the "eye for an eye" principle would have come into effect. However the only "injury" that occurred seemingly is the loss of pregnancy, therefore it is treated as a property matter.

Ok, but the text doesn't actually say that, that's just how you're reading it. The text itself isn't as specific.

Also, even if one is to say "prematue birth," this is essentially a miscarriage. Premies did not receive the same medicaly advanced treatment we do today. So a premature birth was equivalent to stillbirth.

Sometimes, sometimes not. If the text, though, is read as the baby dying is "serious injury", it does say to apply "eye for an eye".

Simply that they are imagining the better alotment of those who died in their mother's womb. It would go to motive, where we find women today setting abortions for that very reason.

There's a difference between simply not being born and being specifically killed in utero.

ie Numbers 3:15.

Just because that's how the Levites were counted doesn't speak to the humanity or lack thereof of the unborn.

Well, he also knew wisdom according to vs 6. So was he both full of wisdom and a sinner at the moment of conception?

Here's v.6 - "Look, you desire integrity in the inner man; you want me to possess wisdom." Where does it say he had wisdom at conception?

Isn't the fear of the Lord the BEGINNING of wisdom? And if so, how could he also have been shaped in iniquity, and conceived in sin?

What does that mean? Are you suggesting once we believe we can't commit sin anymore?

I see the poetic nature of these expressions, describing his shame and humility. I am not sure if it is intended to describe for us the nature of the zygote.

"Poetic" doesn't automatically make it devoid of accuracy.

 

[fuzzymel]

No

 

[JacktheCatholic]

What did 'Wikipedia' have to say?

Quote:
Legal definition:
As with most legal terms, the precise definition of murder varies between jurisdictions and is usually codified in some form of legislation.
In some juridictions, murder is a common law crime, considered so wrong that there is no need for any legislation to define it. In such jurisdictions precedent, (case law or previous decisions of the Courts of Law), define what is considered murder.
It is often expressed as the unlawful killing of a human being with "malice aforethought." However, the element of malice may not be required in every juridiction, though intent normally is.

• The element of malice aforethought can be satisfied by an intentional killing, which is considered express malice.
• Malice can also be implied: deaths that occur by extreme recklessness or during certain serious crimes are considered to be express malice murders.

Exclusions

• Unlawful killings without malice or intent are considered manslaughter.
• Justified or accidental killings are considered homicides. Depending on the circumstances, these may or may not be considered criminal offences.
• Suicide is not considered murder because the offender and the victim are one and the same. However, assisting a suicide may be considered murder in some circumstances.

 

[thereselittleflower]

The accidental death of a unborn baby as described in Exodus is not the same thing as premedated deliberately taking of its life.

Murder is not the same thing as accidental death caused unitentionally.

When one intentionally and deliberately takes the life of an unborn child, they are in fact, committing murder.


.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I heard that there are 4,400 abortions a day in the USA. That works out to 3 every minute or 1,600,000 a year.

1.6 Million abortions a year in the USA.

If this is considered murder in religion and is lawful by the laws of this country then what does that mean?

 

[HypnoToad]

If this is considered murder in religion and is lawful by the laws of this country then what does that mean?

It means that government is violating God's law.

 

[Concetta]

It means there are more things to be considered.

** Warning: Graphic text below **



I've worked for OB-GYNs (obstetricians/gynocologists), 3 of whom were Jewish and 3 Christian. The Jewish doctors explained to me that under Jewish law an abortion is reqired if there is something amiss with the fetus. This includes potential Down Syndrome and nonvital defects. I do not have any written proof, only their word as Jews that this is their law, handed down from God.

One Christian doctor explained his view of abortion as something he was against but it is his medical obligation to care for his patients.

There was a girl who tried to self abort with knitting needles. They were embedded in the uterine tissue. It took multiple surgeons operating on her simultaneously to remove them. She was 21. Self-abortive acts are not uncommon, via whatever means the woman can do. Other incidents: An 11 year old (yes, eleven), pregnant. A woman whose partner thought a hot curling iron was fun.

The bottom line for the doctors is that, although abortion is murder, ... a safe, legal, medical abortion is better than the alternative. Performing such a procedure on their patients is not something they do with joy.

It would be nice if people were morally pure, didn't sleep around, didn't get raped, didn't engage in incest or extramarital affairs, didn't smoke or take harmful medicines/drugs, get in wrecks that injure a fetus, and had body parts (uterus and cervix) that stayed tightly shut until a baby is ready to be born, and had right size pelvis to deliver babies. But it isn't a perfect world. The doctors grieve too.


Please don't shoot this messenger (me). Please argue with the post and not the poster. GBU

 

[HypnoToad]

If someone agrees it is murder, then says something like, "if you're going to murder, at least be safe about it," that is just ridiculous.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

It means there are more things to be considered.

** Warning: Graphic text below **



I've worked for OB-GYNs (obstetricians/gynocologists), 3 of whom were Jewish and 3 Christian. The Jewish doctors explained to me that under Jewish law an abortion is reqired if there is something amiss with the fetus. This includes potential Down Syndrome and nonvital defects. I do not have any written proof, only their word as Jews that this is their law, handed down from God.

One Christian doctor explained his view of abortion as something he was against but it is his medical obligation to care for his patients.

There was a girl who tried to self abort with knitting needles. They were embedded in the uterine tissue. It took multiple surgeons operating on her simultaneously to remove them. She was 21. Self-abortive acts are not uncommon, via whatever means the woman can do. Other incidents: An 11 year old (yes, eleven), pregnant. A woman whose partner thought a hot curling iron was fun.

The bottom line for the doctors is that, although abortion is murder, ... a safe, legal, medical abortion is better than the alternative. Performing such a procedure on their patients is not something they do with joy.

It would be nice if people were morally pure, didn't sleep around, didn't get raped, didn't engage in incest or extramarital affairs, didn't smoke or take harmful medicines/drugs, get in wrecks that injure a fetus, and had body parts (uterus and cervix) that stayed tightly shut until a baby is ready to be born, and had right size pelvis to deliver babies. But it isn't a perfect world. The doctors grieve too.


Please don't shoot this messenger (me). Please argue with the post and not the poster. GBU

You have made some good points for cases where abortion may be permitted by religious views.

However, of the 4,400 abortions a day I highly doubt even 1% would fall under your points.

So from a more general view would abortion be considered murder?

Some have contested there is no life until the baby is born.

 

[Miracle Storm]

YES, abortion is murder.

 

[Rebekka]

I voted yes it is murder.

 

[Celticflower]

I voted yes, but I realize there are rare occasions when it is the only medically viable option to preserve the health of the mother. Under no circustances should it be used as an alternative to birth control.

 

[Elife3]

I heard that "kill" in the 6th commandment in the KJB means "to murder without cause", and the only exception I would have for abortion is if the mother's life is in jeopardy (e.g. tubal pregnacy). Otherwise, it's ugly murder with NO cause and I voted yes.

 

[jasmine88]

Either abortion is wrong or it isn't. If you think it's not murder in cases of incest, rape, detrimental to the mother's health, etc., then it is not murder in any other case. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Elife3]

Either abortion is wrong or it isn't. If you think it's not murder in cases of incest, rape, detrimental to the mother's health, etc., then it is not murder in any other case. You can't have it both ways.

I never mentioned incest and rape. The cause must be real. Mass killers usually kill for fun. That's not a real cause. Also, if it's a lose-lose situation for the baby (e.g. tubal pregnancy), should both the mother AND baby die or just the baby? I think that just the baby should die so instead of doing nothing and lose 2 lives, just do an abortion to save your life and only 1 life is lost. If this is bad thinking, please tell me with scriptures to refute this thought.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

When it comes down to the mother dying or the baby then it is a tough decision I am sure.

Since I will never have to make that decision I cannot say.

But I know the Bible tells us that one of the greatest things we can do as Christians to to give our life to save an other. So, I truly believe that a mother that sacrifices her life to save her unborn will be in Heaven with Jesus.

I think that would be my choice too...

But for all those people out there that are ignorant to this... So very sad.

Abortion truly has become a form of birth control and many people do not see it as killing the unborn and many do not consider the child living until it comes out of the womb. BUT what seems most sad is our government supports this either by their own ignorance or a malace that is far worse than terrorists.