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Is abortion better than the alternative?

Antoninus Verus

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self defense is different. murder is defined as killing an innocent person. i would protect myself. i'd be dumb not to.
mur·der ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (mûr
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d
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n.
  1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
explain why abortion isnt murder, seeker. its brutally killing a baby...maybe that child isnt born yet...but it is human. and if it was allowed to live, it would live a full and complete life. how is that not murder?
An abortion is not brutal, for what is required, it is the gentilest process possible. The current abortion procedure isnt something you'd want to do if you didnt have to, but the goal of medicine is to create the most painless and non-invasive procedures possible.

you say you've looked at all the evidence etc. yet you still think its ok to abort babies? I'm sorry...but i STRONGLY disagree. after seeing pictures of what looks like completely normal babies who were killed in horrible ways by abortion...its hard for me to understand how you still think it is not murder.
I dont think abortion is a good thing, I dont think its something that insurance should cover, I dont think its something that should be done on a whim or just for convience, but I do think it should be an option for life threatening scenarios and rape victims. Thats it and thats all.
 
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gallykid08

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verus..i know you dont think its necassarily a good thing....that was mostly directed at seeker...i know you views on it. i do disagree with you especially about rape babies...but anway.

abortion is brutal. i've read up on the methods, what they do, how long it takes, and the affects on the unborn baby. doesnt matter how you soften it up...its brutal.
 
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Antoninus Verus

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gallykid08 said:
abortion is brutal. i've read up on the methods, what they do, how long it takes, and the affects on the unborn baby. doesnt matter how you soften it up...its brutal.
I have to agree with Seeking, abortion is nessicary in some cases. It needs to be an OPTION.

Not all of medicine is pretty. Ever had a spinal tap? An absolutely barbaric process in my view. Un-natural, but nessiscary. Colonoscopy? Ugh...**shudders**
 
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gallykid08

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Antoninus Verus said:
I have to agree with Seeking, abortion is nessicary in some cases. It needs to be an OPTION.

Not all of medicine is pretty. Ever had a spinal tap? An absolutely barbaric process in my view. Un-natural, but nessiscary. Colonoscopy? Ugh...**shudders**

I know...some medical stuff hurts alot...and seems horrible.

but it isn't taking someone's life either.
 
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Marek

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Antoninus Verus said:
I have to agree with Seeking, abortion is nessicary in some cases. It needs to be an OPTION.
Then I assume you believe that abortion should be illegal except for in cases where a life is in grave danger. This would be left to the doctor's best judgement and the woman's consent.
 
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Antoninus Verus

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Marek said:
Then I assume you believe that abortion should be illegal except for in cases where a life is in grave danger. This would be left to the doctor's best judgement and the woman's consent.
In cases where life is in danger AND rape victims

I know...some medical stuff hurts alot...and seems horrible.

but it isn't taking someone's life either.
No, In some cases, its worse. Some cancer sufferers opt for euthanasia rather than suffer through long and painful chemotherapy sessions and various medications that drain strength and make you phsyically weak.
 
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gallykid08

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Antoninus Verus said:
No, In some cases, its worse. Some cancer sufferers opt for euthanasia rather than suffer through long and painful chemotherapy sessions and various medications that drain strength and make you phsyically weak.

this is true...however unborn babies can't choose death or life...it's something people choose for them. i don't agree with that.
 
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FieryKnight

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Wow there are 6 pages of responses to go. Oh well, haven't posted for awhile. :)

hmm..lets look at it the other way - open drug market, street dealers open up their own grocery stores to sell their product, no one killing or prostituting to feed their habit?, legal importation of drugs and thus legitimate profits for someone?, No more people being killed in Columbia? Wow the benefits...

Lets look at the Netherlands for a second. There we have a system where drugs were legalized. So we should look at all the benefits - there is no underground market, it is sold in the parks or anywhere else you want to buy it (unfortunately, that doesn't mean that the quality or the amount of rat poison in it is any less - people cut drugs (add additives like baby powder or rat poison to a pure drug) and sell them - because they are greedy)

Street dealers - there are still street dealers, but now that it is legalized. tainted (cut) drugs are never taken off the street by police. There are street dealers still, because they can sell the cut drugs cheaper than people can buy them in the stores (people are always looking for a bargain - and if they get cut drugs - i guess it goes back to the old maxim - you get what you pay for. The other reason there are still street dealers and all upstanding members of the business community, it the same reason they weren't before - people who are not educated to successfully run a business, do not magically obtain those skills just because the drugs have been legalized.

I worked with over 100 families, over a 5 year period, to help them get off welfare. Most people can learn enough to be financial independent, but they usually only do it when they no other options but to make something with their lives. When a drug dealer is taken off the streets, sometimes it is one more chance for them to turn their lives around, as painful as that process may be, it does not occur if drugs are legalized, and the person can undercut the drug stores with cut drugs, and still make a living.

No one killing or prostituting to feed their habit? Just by making drugs legal, doesn't make them unaddictable. People have addictions because they have pain, or fear, or something in their heart, that they believe they can use the drug to help them not feel or worry about. Let's take gambling for a second - 5% (doesn't sound like much, right?) of the people that first start gambling, end up embezzling from their company, stealing from their neighbors, mugging and beating people unconscious for the money in the victim's wallet, and yes, prostituting and killing to feed their gambling habit. If you don't have money, because you don't have a job - because you were stoned, or you are puking your guts out from some "bad" cut drugs, and can't keep to work, or for whatever reason - you will do Whatever you have to get want you want the most (the drugs), including prostitution and murder.

Hmm...what's the next one? "Legal importation of drugs and thus legitimate profits..." Well, even if you don't have any qualms that you may be giving profits to people that may have personally pulled the trigger and killed someone in cold blood, lets look at some of our other legal partners of commerce. Factories are shipping out of America by the boatloads, please forgive the pun. It is far cheaper to build and run factories in other countries (where there is no regulation on the quality of the product bought by the customer) than it is to keep them in America. China is the number 1 importer to the US - try to go to Walmart and buy something not made in America. Jobs are draining out of America, so even if you legalize drugs, you probably won't have American drug entrepreneurs starting up pharmaceutical companies here in the old USA, because it is cheaper to make them elsewhere.

So if we give all of our money to drugs companies or organized drug cartels, that money doesn't stay in the US to help create more US jobs for us. I know this from experience - I live in Iowa and not far from the Missouri border - the two states have the highest number of meth labs in America - and yet more comes up from Mexico to be sold to the already addicted people here in the US.

The last was no more people being killed in Columbia? I assume you mean that people wouldn't get killed as a result of wars over the lucrative illegal drug trade. Well, first, people are usually unaware that most income of many South American countries can from kidnapping. Many tourists, or members of corporations on business in South America, are kidnapped every year. The are held for ransom. While most companies end up quietly paying these terrorists to get their people back, those who are unable to afford the ransom (like families, or missionary groups) find that their family members or employees have been tortured and then killed. So you would have to stop the problem of kidnapping and terrorism in South America to stop the murders there.

The other issue is - wars between ruling drug cartels are not only because the profit is higher for illegal drugs, it is because of the type of business they are in. Not everyone in South America is involved in drugs, many are hard working honest farmers and productive members of the society. People get into crime, because of several things - they are greedy (throw a $5 bill to 2 kids in Olongapo City in the Philippines, and they will practically fight to the death to get it away from each other), they don't think they can do anything else (due to lack of education or training), they are afraid (afraid someone will take what is theirs, if they don't protect it. All these add up to a volatile mix - people connected with drug cartels kill because that is how you keep what is yours. You lose respect, you lose territory. You lose territory, you lose power. Money to these people is just one way of gaining more power, and instead of working for it, they would rather try to take it from weaker people, or from each other.

People become addicted to drugs, and sell drugs, and prostitute themselves, and kill others, because they have a heart problem. Their heart got broke, somewhere along he way...and you won't fix that by legalizing the bandaid that covers the wound. Sometimes when a problem is serious, a surgeon has to go in and fix what is damaged. The problem is, most people would rather put a bandaid over the wound, live with the pain, and pretend nothing is wrong - rather than overcome the fear of the surgery. Sadly, people sometimes wait too long before they realize that the wound they carry around with them, will kill them...when if they would have just had the surgery, they would live. Not only live, but live without the pain. Those are the real benefits, Electra :)

Electra said:
Yes.

Legal drugs = no underground market, no street dealers, no people killing and prostituting to feed the habit, no illegal importing of drugs and thus high profits for organised crime and no more people being killed in Columbia. Wow...the benefits...
 
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Antoninus Verus

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gallykid08 said:
this is true...however unborn babies can't choose death or life...it's something people choose for them. i don't agree with that.
We often have to make life or death choices for our children because they do not have the knowleage or experience to make such decisions on thier own. We make those decisions for thier own well-being
 
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gallykid08

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confused...where'd the talk about drugs come from? :confused:

let me add to this since i just saw ur post, verus.

big difference between making decisions for your children when they're alive...and they dont directly kill the child.

making a concious decision to abort aka kill an unborn baby is an entirely different issue.
 
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Zlex

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Antoninus Verus said:
We often have to make life or death choices for our children because they do not have the knowleage or experience to make such decisions on thier own. We make those decisions for thier own well-being

Not for their well being, for ours. Even when the baby is "defective" it is in the name of our convenience.
 
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Antoninus Verus

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big difference between making decisions for your children when they're alive...and they dont directly kill the child.

making a concious decision to abort aka kill an unborn baby is an entirely different issue.
Would you take your child off life support if you knew that, while they may not die from her ailment, she will live bedridden and in constant pain the rest of her life?

Not for their well being, for ours. Even when the baby is "defective" it is in the name of our convenience.
Thats why I dont believe in most abortions for convience. And as far as "defected" children go, if the defect was seriously debilitating or life threatning, then I would say go for it. There are certain diseases that are fatal to a newborn shortly after thier birth (such as Caysax(sp) and if my child were diagnosed with such a fatal disorder, I would tell them to go ahead and do it, rather than leave my child to slowly die of a disease we know is comming.
 
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FieryKnight

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Hi Lokisdottir!

You might want to look up the legal definition of adoption. Adopted children have more legal rights than you do (I assume you weren't adopted). The parents who adopt a child can not legally EVER disown that child. You can disown your own children. A foster home is primarily a temporary home (less than 3 years) in which the child stays until they can either be returned to their home of origin, or placed in an adoptive home. They are not the same.

By the way, there are over 10,000 "qualified" families, in the US alone, that are ready to adopt children. Many of them go to China (where girl children are either killed or put in orphanages), or adopt from other countries - we have 10 families in our town of 30,000, that have adopted from Russia. These families have literally saved the lives of these children they have adopted. They are from the Chernobyl area of Russia (where they nuclear power plant had a meltdown) - for ever month the live in the US, it adds a year to their life, if they would have remained in their country.

And yes, some children have severe birth defects and are harder to place. But there are also families who have had life experiences that call them to adopt special needs children.

Here is a story for you. This is the story of 2 children - which loved their parents better? One child was the pride of his parents, they doted on him and showed him all their love, had him well educated and he was the absolute brimming pride of his family. He would be the savior of their family name, while the other child was their secret embarassment. The other child had been born with some mental retardation, she was ignored in the shadow of the other child. It was obvious that her parents didn't love or cherish her even close to as much, as they loved her brother. She was the ugly duckling and an embarassment to the family.

So what happened to the 2 children? Well, one became Adolph Hitler - an insane meglomaniac, responsible for the horrible torture and death of millions of people (most Jewish - but also gypsy, handicapped, and others), and bringing eternal shame to his family name. What happened to his sister - she took care of her parents in their old age - feeding them, loving them, and caring for their every need, until their death (when most of the rest of the world would have easily let them die). So who loved their parents best? Who brought a greater benefit to society?

Parents of Down Syndrome children (who most people look at as severely disabled) often reveal, that their "special children" are the most loving children of all. These children bring an incredible joy to their parents, as these children are able to give unconditional love back to them. Who is to say that these parents don't treat society better, as they had to learn to look for the specialness in other people, they may improve their community by learning this ability. So you could say that even severely handicapped children can bring a benefit to society, as it is a better place for their effect on others. Children with mental problems were once called "idiots." But if you look at some of the "Idiot Savants" throughout history, they often have unexplainable abilities that could only cause people to wonder about who could create such a genius inside a often unpleasant looking body. Are you God, that you would take away this star out of the night sky, that you would take a color out of the pallet of an incredible sunrise or sunset? It is pretty simple - if you don't feel you have room in your heart for one of these children, there are plenty who do. Do you really want to take away a family from a children who is in need? Or a child from a family who can't have children? If your answer is no, then please step aside. If the foster care system upsets you, become a foster parent and provide a stable family, or better yet, adopt a child in need, or help their family work through their problems. There are lots of solutions, but be a part of the solution, or you are a part of the problem that seems to upset you. Give kids a chance you may not have had.

Lokisdottir said:
As though there aren't already enough children being bounced from one foster home to another? You make it sound so simple.
 
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Zlex

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FieryKnight said:
Parents of Down Syndrome children (who most people look at as severely disabled) often reveal, that their "special children" are the most loving children of all. These children bring an incredible joy to their parents, as these children are able to give unconditional love back to them. Who is to say that these parents don't treat society better, as they had to learn to look for the specialness in other people, they may improve their community by learning this ability. So you could say that even severely handicapped children can bring a benefit to society, as it is a better place for their effect on others. Children with mental problems were once called "idiots." But if you look at some of the "Idiot Savants" throughout history, they often have unexplainable abilities that could only cause people to wonder about who could create such a genius inside a often unpleasant looking body. Are you God, that you would take away this star out of the night sky, that you would take a color out of the pallet of an incredible sunrise or sunset? It is pretty simple - if you don't feel you have room in your heart for one of these children, there are plenty who do. Do you really want to take away a family from a children who is in need? Or a child from a family who can't have children? If your answer is no, then please step aside. If the foster care system upsets you, become a foster parent and provide a stable family, or better yet, adopt a child in need, or help their family work through their problems. There are lots of solutions, but be a part of the solution, or you are a part of the problem that seems to upset you. Give kids a chance you may not have had.

Absolutely. Nobody 'wants' that for their kids. It's the most human of urges.

But, when it comes to natural selection and evolution and so on, we're very good about all that randomly and whimsically("I like the way he/she looks"), but extremely poor about that intellectually/constructivistly. We no more 'know' how to build the 'perfect' society/species/human then we 'know' how to build the unsinkable Titanic or always safe landing Space Shuttle. We are always subject to the law of unintended consequences.

Look; "it takes all kinds." But, bromides are bromides because they are plainly true.

IMO, if we were to selectively breed for the absolute highest IQs possible, before too long, the human race would be an unbearable mass of high strung twits, consumed by ego. With IQ comes...quirks. As well, guile, deceit, and cunning.

With rare exception.

From afar, 'special needs' children seem to only be a burden on society, a 'cost' that take more then they give. I'm here to tell you, absolutely, that is not the case, because I've seen what immersed 'special needs' kids do to entire classrooms of 'normal' children. To be blunt, they teach normal children not to be complete little *******s. In fact, they bring the absolute best human qualities out of normal children, because they are examples of human beings totally without guile, without deceit, and without cunning. They live in a state of grace and joy and laughter whenever possible, they want only to love and be loved, and it is impossible to angst too much about your own personal little struggles when you see these kids carry their weights and struggles and sometimes succeed though often fail.

I have two opposite bookend sons, both with IEPs. One, the oldest, because he tested out with a very high IQ. The other, the youngest, because he has Williams Syndrome, a genetic deletion. I have seen with my own eyes what my youngest son has given my oldest son. My oldest scored well enough on the SATs...in 8th grade, to get into almost any college he wants. My youngest will not. My oldest has always been an athlete, he's now a HS QB, works at it all year round...when he's not helping out at Special Olympics. My youngest tries his damdest, and his absolute favorite part of the whole deal is shaking hands after the games. He makes friends and makes people smile wherever he goes, and always has, as he followed his older brother around the AAU BBall tournements. Whatever my 'golden boy' oldest son could have become in his pampered/shletered suburban lifestyle, he is not another ******* waiting for this world, which has plenty already, and for that, we all owe his younger brother big time. They are inseperable. Although they nominally have seperate bedrooms, they would never think of sleeping apart. When my oldest heads off to college in a year and a half, it is going to be heart breaking for both of them, but once again, my youngest son is going to teach us all how to handle such things, the same way he has taught us how to handle all such heartbreaks; honestly, with love, without guile, without deceit, and without cunning.

So, I am trying to imagine my world without my youngest son. Would I, in a million years of thinking it through, have ever realized how crucially important my youngest son was going to be to the well being of my family?

No. I'm not nearly that smart, and neither is mankind as a whole. I almost screwed it up big time, by thinking I knew better than I really did.

Which is why I cringe at the idea of folks thinking that they can constructivistly build the perfect human, the perfect society, the perfect mankind.

Not the way it works; the Universe teaches its own lessons.

So, how does all that reconcile with the very human urge not to 'burden' your child with a handicap? Look, it's not like my youngest son was 'OK', and then a handicap came along and 'burdened' him. Not the way it works. Williams Syndrome is a nearly mechanical/genetic deletion that sometimes occurs randomly during the very first or second cell division. Some 50,000 DNA pairs out of a possible 500,000 pair local region at the physical 'tip' of the Elastin gene just don't 'zip up,' maybe because of the physical configuration of the gene. Depending on where the deletion occurs, Williams folks get a slightly different selection from the laundery list of things that make Williams a 'syndrome,' but the one unifying characteristic is their outstanding personalities. It is a 'natural' mutation that sometimes occurs in either 1:20000 or 1:40000 births, so it is entirely possible that you've never met anyone with Williams Syndrome. Because it is a deletion, it is dominant. They are best described as 'asymetric;' they might have absolutely no math logic circuitry at all(which may explain the almost total lack of guile, cunning, and deceit), but they often have outstanding memories and a love of words and music. You can meet a person with Williams and at first, be led to beleive that they are extremely intelligent, because they tend to use 'big words' and have very full expressive capabilites, but after a while, you will detect that there is some missing logic in what they are saying. They often have extremely acute hearing, hear things a mile away. They tend to love words, and it is not uncommon in young children, when asked to name an animal, for them to name the animal with the most pleasing sound, not necessarily their favorite animal. So, whereas a 'normal' child might say 'cat,' at the same age a Williams kid might say 'duck billed platypus' because they like the way it sounds, and thus, surprise adults into thinking that they were actually overly intelligent little kids. Or, even, to speak in complete sentences as their first utterings. (Actual example, though not my son; kid playing in dr's office waiting room with desk lamp, turning switch on and off to see how it works. Receptionist gets a little tired of this, and secretly unplugs the lamp. Kid says, as his first uttered words, "Jesus Christ, this doesn't work!" [edit--my memory ws a little foggy on this, from 1991 article.] Crude, but perfect. Apparently, he'd been listening to the world around him.) Because the wiring is different--some brain mass is actually missing--these folks perceive and adapt and deal with the world much differently then 'normal' folks, and because of this, they are often used as subjects in cognitive studies, to help us figure out exactly how 'normal' folks perceive the world. They help us understand.

They do more then that, and we're not near smart enough to predict all that, based on our concept of 'normal' and 'perfect.'
So, I'm thinking, some of us should just take our chances, not pretend to be so smart about tthings we are not really smart about at all, and let some things, take your pick:

A] In God's hands.
B] In the Universe's hands.
C] In **** happens hands.

Not all of us. I agree, this isn't a OneSizeFitsAll decision. Maybe...and, I and my wife were an example...some folks are convinced that they just couldn't handle the 'burden,' and want to take what steps are available to avoid that burden if possible.

Well, OK. But ... I thank God everyday that I didn't get my way.

So, think about it. We're not as smart as we think we are about some things.
 
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FieryKnight

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Well, Antoninus, until you are in the delivery room as the baby you have waited for your whole life, and the last 9 months for, you don't know what you would do for or to your child.

If you are trying to convince Christians that abortion or euthanasia is okay, i think you may want to try that argument on another site. When you have been given eternal life, how can you then say - Well, I finally let God decide what to do with my life, and i am the better for it, but i am going to not let God decide when a baby or an adult should live or die, and i will determine what good can come from a life, that we don't have control of, like when someone has a debilitating disease. You may not understand this, but Christians obtain more power when we recognize we are not in control of our life - that is when the incredible and miraculous can occur. Corrie Ten Boone is an example, she has been stuck in a wheel chair, and yet has probably touched millions of lives for the better. Christianity is all about bringing life out of death - so abortion and euthanasia doesn't mesh with our view of life. So as me ole granpappy used to say, "Peddle your wares elsewhere, sonny." :)

P.S. I know a 16-year-old girl that is incredibly vibrant, and bright, probably brilliant, a genius, she has a heart as big as Texas, and would give her blood to help her worst enemy to live - she is on the road to probably being a family doctor and a surgeon, she one day may become a leader to be proud of, possibly a Senator, and she has everything you could possibly imagine to make all her dreams come true... - she is also...the child of a rape.
Her mother was in the abortion clinic, getting ready to kill her (sorry don't know how to nicely say how you snuff out a flame before it grows up to be a beautiful ball of fire - a supernova) when she just felt she couldn't go through it.

She had the baby, and when she saw her, yes, she was reminded of the rape, and she thought of giving her up for adoption, and then she held her - and she knew what ever had happened, it wasn't this little baby's fault. She loved her despite everything, and now she cannot imagine how empty her life would have been without her baby, and she is so proud of her. Her daughter said this - and she would say this to you - "I am just so glad my mother didn't have the abortion."

How can you argue with a life so well lived?

Antoninus Verus said:
Would you take your child off life support if you knew that, while they may not die from her ailment, she will live bedridden and in constant pain the rest of her life?

Thats why I dont believe in most abortions for convience. And as far as "defected" children go, if the defect was seriously debilitating or life threatning, then I would say go for it. There are certain diseases that are fatal to a newborn shortly after thier birth (such as Caysax(sp) and if my child were diagnosed with such a fatal disorder, I would tell them to go ahead and do it, rather than leave my child to slowly die of a disease we know is comming.[/font]
 
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gallykid08

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often i think it is better to have life, not matter how short, then not to have life at all.

i have a cousin who is mentally retarded...and very delayed. but he loves life and he has made a BIG positive impact on my family and everyone around them.

i know another little girl with Rett's syndrome. typically children who have Rett's syndrome die very young. however she is doing fairly well. her family moved away and i know she is having some health issues. but she has a family and people who love her and would die for her if they had to.

is it better to have you life brutally taken? or be allowed to live and experience love for a while?
 
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xhristlives

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we just have to praise God for everyone born-remember that in His name everyone has an important purpose. Christ was not aborted for being conceived outside of a legal marriage, and now His life gives us LIFE ETERNAL. So think only of every child's potential, a reflection of Christ's goodness!
 
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Seeking...

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gallykid08 said:
is it better to have you life brutally taken? or be allowed to live and experience love for a while?

It depends I would never ridicule someone who chooses to abort because their child carries a degenerative & fatal genetic disorder. There are diseases that are completely debilitating, painful and there are not courses of treatment - it should not be a crime to spare a child that.
 
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Seeking...

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FieryKnight said:
How can you argue with a life so well lived?

You know what - I am sincerely happy that the mother in your story was able to carry that child to term and raise her with love. There are many other women who have made similar choices and I applaud their strength of heart. The important word to remember though is "choices" - no woman after going through an ordeal like that should be forced to continue such a pregnancy. If she wants to - fine, support her and counsel her with whatever she needs. If she doesn't - she should still be supported and counselled.
 
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Antoninus Verus

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If you are trying to convince Christians that abortion or euthanasia is okay, i think you may want to try that argument on another site. When you have been given eternal life, how can you then say - Well, I finally let God decide what to do with my life, and i am the better for it, but i am going to not let God decide when a baby or an adult should live or die, and i will determine what good can come from a life, that we don't have control of, like when someone has a debilitating disease. You may not understand this, but Christians obtain more power when we recognize we are not in control of our life - that is when the incredible and miraculous can occur. Corrie Ten Boone is an example, she has been stuck in a wheel chair, and yet has probably touched millions of lives for the better. Christianity is all about bringing life out of death - so abortion and euthanasia doesn't mesh with our view of life. So as me ole granpappy used to say, "Peddle your wares elsewhere, sonny." :)
Pardon my French, but Ill peddle where I like. This IS the D&D forum, the appropriate place for debates about such topics as abortion. And I would appreciate it if you refrained from talking to me like Im too young to understand anything about the world. I dont know how old you are nor do I know how much experience you have in this world, but however much it is, it does not grant you the right to speak in a condescending manner to those younger than yourself. I take the time to listen to other's points of view, if I didnt, I wouldnt be here.

Well, Antoninus, until you are in the delivery room as the baby you have waited for your whole life, and the last 9 months for, you don't know what you would do for or to your child.
No I dont know what its like to have a child of my own, but having been there for close friends and family members, if abortion were illegal I would have lost a sister to a pregnancy death by the way, that I can form conclusions based on what I see and what others tell me. And having to act almost like the father for a close friend's child gave me plenty of insight.

P.S. I know a 16-year-old girl that is incredibly vibrant, and bright, probably brilliant, a genius, she has a heart as big as Texas, and would give her blood to help her worst enemy to live - she is on the road to probably being a family doctor and a surgeon, she one day may become a leader to be proud of, possibly a Senator, and she has everything you could possibly imagine to make all her dreams come true... - she is also...the child of a rape.
Her mother was in the abortion clinic, getting ready to kill her (sorry don't know how to nicely say how you snuff out a flame before it grows up to be a beautiful ball of fire - a supernova) when she just felt she couldn't go through it.

She had the baby, and when she saw her, yes, she was reminded of the rape, and she thought of giving her up for adoption, and then she held her - and she knew what ever had happened, it wasn't this little baby's fault. She loved her despite everything, and now she cannot imagine how empty her life would have been without her baby, and she is so proud of her. Her daughter said this - and she would say this to you - "I am just so glad my mother didn't have the abortion."

How can you argue with a life so well lived?
Fantastic, Im happy for the girl and her mother. But in my experience, those two are the exception rather than the rule.

Let me tell you a story, one you may find equally interesting. There was a young man who went to school with me about 3 or 4 years ago. Very nice, very smart and very likeable, just one thing, he had no father. His mother had been raped while she was visiting New York. She didnt have the heart to go in for an abortion and told her son that his father had died in an accident when he was young. This young man's mother was very disturbed, the memories of the incident haunted her every night and she had become dependant on anti-depressants. The young man tried to help his mother, untill one night when she was admitted to the hospital for trying to cut her wrists open, she told him the truth. Her depression was caused by her son who looked so much like his father. He went home so full of guilt that he was doing this to his mother, that he shot himself.

How would you feel if one day you found out that your daddy was a rapist? How would that make you feel when the other kids at school were talking about thier parents? How would you feel if you knew that your own father was someone who destroyed other people's lives. Id rather be dead
 
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