Is abortion better than the alternative?

[Lokisdottir]

Lokisdottir - I have been noticing that your views on motherhood are quite common and popular among young women.

It doesn't seem so to me. Most of my female friends can't wait to get married, settle down and have children.

I have heard my 2 daughters and their friends having conversations with a lot of pieces common to your thoughts. I found a www site that espouses it. It seems like a fad, as much as anything. I am sorry, but it seems awfully sad to me.

Fad? Hardly. I've been this way all my life. While other little girls played "mother" to baby dolls, I was out playing with action figures, catching snakes, and making lean-tos out of sticks. The desire to be a mother was never there.

I don't think it's sad. I've always been as happy as anyone, if not happier. There are a lot of things you could call me, but pessimist isn't one of them.

I believe that the best in life is often purchased through the greatest sacrifice.

Oh, absolutely. It's not that I don't believe in self-sacrifice, or working hard to attain a higher goal. It's just that having children is not one of those things I'd be willing to sacrifice myself for.

 

[merryheart]

I can't really add anything to my observations, and I take your word you aren't "maternally inclined" (I am not a real girly girl either, and never was "maternal" in the so-called normal way, although I love my children dearly. -- I happen to think they have gained valuable perspective by having a "different" mom BTW) I just hope you are not closed to the idea that your feelings might change. Or if they don't, they can - especially if you accidently get pregnant. As I said in my first post in this thread - I think the worst thing to come from all the bickering is that hearts are hard and closed. You may find that there is value in not allowing other's bitterness to affect your ability to be open to possibilities.

 

[Lokisdottir]

I just hope you are not closed to the idea that your feelings might change.

Oh, of course I'm not. I'm only 18, I realize that. I just see it as being very, very unlikely.

Or if they don't, they can - especially if you accidently get pregnant.

*runs and hides*

There must be some easier way to have an epiphany. The thought of being pregnant terrifies me.

As I said in my first post in this thread - I think the worst thing to come from all the bickering is that hearts are hard and closed. You may find that there is value in not allowing other's bitterness to affect your ability to be open to possibilities.

Whose bitterness?

 

[The Seeker]

Gotta agree with lokisdottir here, I can't imagine myself as a parent. What a scary, scary idea

Of course, my perspective is probably a bit more subject to change, being as I'm pretty safe on the pregancy front

 

[merryheart]

Oh, of course I'm not. I'm only 18, I realize that. I just see it as being very, very unlikely.


*runs and hides*

There must be some easier way to have an epiphany. The thought of being pregnant terrifies me.

and so it should

JK - I was pretty terrified of it too - but one day (during pregnancy) I took myself by the collar mentally and shook it a little, and said "literally *millions* of women have successfully done this!!!

Whose bitterness?

There is much bitterness on both sides of the abortion debate, and IMO it is most harmful to all.

 

[NothingButTheBlood]

I know that at 14 in my health class they made it very clear what birth control was and where to get it without a parents permission and for free. My problem with abortion is that women have championed it as the reason we are equal with men, we "control" our reproductive systems. I find those that choose to engage in unprotected sex and don't have any intention of wanting children to be reckless, careless and a detrement to women in general. I understand that a women who has been molested or raped may not what to raise that child but adoption is an option. Most women who report a rape get the morning after pill at the hospital ( I realise most don't report it it's just a statement). I know that as a smart, independent woman I find the idea that abortion, in this day and age, is so easily preventable and still so readily utilized to be the saddest thing women can say about themselves.

As a Christian, I believe life begins at conception and that abortion is a sin. Whether the law gives it that importance or not. My first pregnancy was a miscarrage so I don't have children but I know my body changed immediately when I became pregnant. Just knowing your pregnant changes how you think and the decisions you make. You are immediatlely aware of yourself. I really don't know how a person chooses to end that life.

 

[SallyNow]

I've read the first 9 pages of this debate, and am going to jump in.

I am not for legal abortion. I am not for illegal abortion. It has to be determined on a case-by-case basis. Abortion is something that is plagued by "exceptional cases": women with medical problems that make pregnacy dangerous; horrific situations; rape, etc. To completly ban it would solve nothing. To accomplish a real solution, a change in the attitude towards sex, the fact that sex is a wonderful thing and a big responsibility, a change in both the responsibility a man and a woman must take, etc, all must be taken into account.

If birth control was used properly most of the time, then the cases of unwanted pregnancies would drop. If men were more supportive of the women they got pregnant, many abortions could be prevented. If, if, if...there needs to be an attitude change.

Preventive measures, better adoption services, sex seen as more of a gift and burden, more love, etc, all are needed to prevent abortions. But sadly, there will always be exceptions.

Also, giving birth has traditionally been quite dangerous in my family. We must have some pretty poor genetics, because almost every woman on my mother's side has given birth by c-section, often followed by an emergency hysterectomy -- and at least one death. Again, call me selfish, but I refuse to risk it. What's more, I have a veritable laundry list of inheritable genetic defects that should not be passed on.

For instance, this is an exception: pregancy is exceptionally dangerous for you, and your choices make sense in your case.
(Sorry, that sounds really presumtionous of me to go telling you your own choices make sense-I amtrying to show how exceptions to the norm work, I hope you don't mind me using you as an example)

Call me selfish, but I'm not willing to go through nine months of pregnancy, many hours of labor, and damage to certain beloved parts of my anatomy for the sake of a child I'll only see for a moment before it's thrown into foster care, where it may or may not be adopted, and may or may not end up miserable.

A reason to change attitudes in the general public, so when adoption or abortion is really needed, it can be done properly-the adoption and foster care system is full of people who have bought the free-for-all sex attitude, as opposed to the fun-with-responibility attitude. When preventitive measures fail, adoption is the first choice, but occasionally abortion is the needed last resort.

Abstinance is not only un-healthy, it too can fail. Ask someone who abstains and has been raped before. Abstinance wont save you there. NO birth control is 100% unless you ripped out your own womb or ovaries or cut off your testicles.

I think this is really presumptious of you-that those who choose abstinance are doing something unhealthy. It is not unhealthy for those who choose it...it is a choice to wait for the right time, for the right spouse. Why insult those who have the patience to wait?

As for abstinance being 100% effective: it is, unless someone does end up being raped, in which case, in the exceptional event they do become pregnant, that falls under a case-by-case basis. I see it as inhumane to totally ban abortions in the case of rape.

This debate is getting silly. Our society (and then I mean my country) assures that people don't have to starve, but its not 100% effective. That doesn't mean those who starve have the right to steal other people's food.

But when a starving person steals bread from someone who has much bread, sympathy can be taken on the starving person-and society can be changed so there is much fewer people who are starving. You can't just sit back and say, "the starving should not steal" but instead you must say, "why does one have so much bread going to waste while others are starving?".

merryheart vbmenu_register("postmenu_14126216", true); [/color] ] I know women who have been raped and born and loved a child. This is a beautiful kind of love. I recommend it to any who can accept it.

I think that in most cases, when a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, it is best that she give up her child for adoption. There will be natural anger and feelings of pain, and the child does not need that growing up. Adoption to a loving family prevents those feelings. Another reason that in normal situations, people should be more responsible about sex, so in the exceptional cases there are more resources avaible.

 

[merryheart]

Sally, I think our opinions are probably more alike than different, but I would like to invite you into the cynicism of my over 40 POV for just a sec.

Let's say, abortion is illegal with exception for mother's physical health or rape. Who makes that call? Does the one who needs an abortion go before a judge to get her exemption? Or is it between the woman and the Dr? In case she says it was rape, does rape have to be proved? Do you think that a whole bunch of false accusations might result?

 

[Antoninus Verus]

I think this is really presumptious of you-that those who choose abstinance are doing something unhealthy. It is not unhealthy for those who choose it...it is a choice to wait for the right time, for the right spouse. Why insult those who have the patience to wait?

As for abstinance being 100% effective: it is, unless someone does end up being raped, in which case, in the exceptional event they do become pregnant, that falls under a case-by-case basis. I see it as inhumane to totally ban abortions in the case of rape.

We are sexual creatures. THAT you cant deny and I believe that it is mentally un-healthy for someone to supress natural urges. Its like eating, maybe not as important, but equally powerful. Yeah you can suppress the urge to eat, but its EXTREMELY unhealthy to do so.

And I agree on the banning.

 

[SallyNow]

We are sexual creatures. THAT you cant deny and I believe that it is mentally un-healthy for someone to supress natural urges. Its like eating, maybe not as important, but equally powerful. Yeah you can suppress the urge to eat, but its EXTREMELY unhealthy to do so. [/font]

And I agree on the banning.

Some people have very small appetites; some have larger ones. But even with that, it is not a truly comparable activity. Still, waiting for the right food and the right time to eat is normal; and saving eating huge, delectable, fattening, but oh-so-good meals for big events like Christmas or birthdays is normal. You can live without sex; you can not live without eating. The comparasion just doesn't fly when thought out.

The thinking of "because we are sexual creatures, waiting for sex until ready is bad" is folly. Yes, I said folly, even if it is a really old fogey word, as it applies here: the denial of being sexual creatures is one thing; the choice to wait until a person is ready is another. To pretend that people who wait until marraige or a commited relationship are somehow self-destructive is rude, wrong, and (again I use this word) folly. There is nothing wrong with waiting for commitment, engagement, or marraige. Please don't attack those who have chosen a different path; where's the acceptance for a different lifestyle? Why is it okay to do whatever you want sexually, except not have it?

Let's say, abortion is illegal with exception for mother's physical health or rape. Who makes that call? Does the one who needs an abortion go before a judge to get her exemption? Or is it between the woman and the Dr? In case she says it was rape, does rape have to be proved? Do you think that a whole bunch of false accusations might result?

Ooo! Tough one to throw at a 21 year old's idealism .

I think that a reasonable doubt sort of thing would have to apply-the woman's mental, physical, and emotional health would have to be taken into account, as well as evidence of a rape. It would have to be on a case-by-case basis, probably done with careful and quick consultations with a psyciatrist, social worker, and doctor. I am rather confident that going through a process of councilling and therapy would deter most women from trying for an abortion by faking rape. Hopefully!

Also, often a woman is mentally, emotionally and physically not at risk by carrying a baby to term in the case of rape-and if so, then adoption is highly prefered over abortion.

 

[morningstar2651]

On Abstinence & Birth Control
I am not abstinent.
I have had pre-marital sex.
I do not attend orgies.
I do not have STDs.
I do not have multiple partners.
I have no children.
I use Crown condoms.
My wedding is scheduled this summer.

On Abortion
See my previous argument.

 

[Voodoo Gypsy]

This is part of the reason I am against the pro-life movement.

If you TOTALLY banned abortions, arent you affraid that some people might go and get them any ways? Back alley abortion clinics where the doctor is less than trained and working in a dirty environment with a questionable knowleage of medicine and tools that MIGHT be clean.

A few years back I read a news story about places like these in India where the abortion was performed with a bent wire hanger and often resulted in serious injury on the woman's part and in some cases even death.

So a TOTAL ban on abortion, I think, would solve nothing. You'd be creating twice the problems for everyone.

My mother got pregnant with my sister at the age of 17 several years before abortion was legal. Even then abortion was still a choice and one that my mother struggled with. Women have always had abortion as a choice, a choice with varying degrees of risk. The anti-abortion crowd suffers from simplistic, magical thinking by thinking that making abortion illegal will make it vanish. Abortion, legal or not, will always be a choice, which is why the abortion debate is so misleading. The issue isn't who's "for choice" and who's "against abortion." The issue is who wants women to have safe abortions and who would rather see our mothers and daughters seek medical care from alleys and dirty bathrooms. That's why I'm pro-choice.

 

[Green Man]

My mother got pregnant with my sister at the age of 17 several years before abortion was legal. Even then abortion was still a choice and one that my mother struggled with. Women have always had abortion as a choice, a choice with varying degrees of risk. The anti-abortion crowd suffers from simplistic, magical thinking by thinking that making abortion illegal will make it vanish. Abortion, legal or not, will always be a choice, which is why the abortion debate is so misleading. The issue isn't who's "for choice" and who's "against abortion." The issue is who wants women to have safe abortions and who would rather see our mothers and daughters seek medical care from alleys and dirty bathrooms. That's why I'm pro-choice.

In this day and age there are multiple methods of minimizing the chances of getting pregnant.If all else fails,there's adoption or abstinence.There is no good reason for the amount of abortions going on today.

 

[Voodoo Gypsy]

In this day and age there are multiple methods of minimizing the chances of getting pregnant.If all else fails,there's adoption or abstinence.There is no good reason for the amount of abortions going on today.

Minimizing is not the same as eliminating. If 5 million women are on the pill, one of the most effective forms of birth control, 250,000 of them will get pregnant. If they want to abort, that's their choice. It's certainly not their job to supply children for the highly flawed adoption system, especially since there's thousands of kids stuck in the system waiting for a home. Abortions are bad, I hate them, but until humans are in danger or extinction there's no reason to tell women to bring an unwanted pregnancy to completion. If you want to prevent abortions, then prevent them, but don't operate under the illusion that making abortions illegal will change anything other than the mortality rate for women.

 

[Tawny]

In this day and age there are multiple methods of minimizing the chances of getting pregnant.If all else fails,there's adoption or abstinence.There is no good reason for the amount of abortions going on today.

Okay then, what if the birth control fails. Nothing is 100% safe. What if a partner has forced a woman to get pregnant. Believe me it happens....what then?

Do not ever think that abortion is an easy choice. Ever, with out being sexist, you as a man will never actually have to make it. Don't get me wrong I am not denying your right to an opinion, but in no way will a total ban cut the amount of abortions. I think the reason there are so many 'recorded' is just that, they are now recorded, 50 yrs ago it was all illegal and unrecorded. So who knows how many women were sent 'round the corner to get sorted out'.

 

[kedaman]

But when a starving person steals bread from someone who has much bread, sympathy can be taken on the starving person-and society can be changed so there is much fewer people who are starving. You can't just sit back and say, "the starving should not steal" but instead you must say, "why does one have so much bread going to waste while others are starving?".

I can't say why does one have so much bread to waste while others are starving, because its not my business to decide what others do with their bread. I used to say this quite a lot, until I realized its what i have been given that matters.

 

[Green Man]

Minimizing is not the same as eliminating. If 5 million women are on the pill, one of the most effective forms of birth control, 250,000 of them will get pregnant. If they want to abort, that's their choice. It's certainly not their job to supply children for the highly flawed adoption system, especially since there's thousands of kids stuck in the system waiting for a home. Abortions are bad, I hate them, but until humans are in danger or extinction there's no reason to tell women to bring an unwanted pregnancy to completion. If you want to prevent abortions, then prevent them, but don't operate under the illusion that making abortions illegal will change anything other than the mortality rate for women.

I'd like to know where you got that figure.A five percent failure rate sounds a little high to me.Abstinence is one hundred percent fool proof.

 

[Tawny]

Very true, Abstinence is 100% foolproof, but sadly humans aren't. I admire someone who can abstain, keep themselves for marriage and marriage only, but not all have or can.

FYI the pill is about 94-99% effective depending on the type of pill and health of a woman.

 

[Green Man]

Okay then, what if the birth control fails. Nothing is 100% safe. What if a partner has forced a woman to get pregnant. Believe me it happens....what then?

Do not ever think that abortion is an easy choice. Ever, with out being sexist, you as a man will never actually have to make it. Don't get me wrong I am not denying your right to an opinion, but in no way will a total ban cut the amount of abortions. I think the reason there are so many 'recorded' is just that, they are now recorded, 50 yrs ago it was all illegal and unrecorded. So who knows how many women were sent 'round the corner to get sorted out'.

You can play the "What if"game til the cows come home but it doesn't change anything.A woman being forced is rape.It doesn't matter who the rapist is.

 

[Voodoo Gypsy]

I'd like to know where you got that figure.A five percent failure rate sounds a little high to me.

It doesn't to any woman on this board who's on birth control. But I'm glad you asked me to look it up. According to the people that know, the pill is only 92% effective so out of 5 million women, 400,000 of them will get pregnant.

http://www.plannedparenthood.com/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/birthcontrol/pub-contraception-pill.xml

Keep in mind that information is not up to date as recent studies have shown that for up to 20% of women the pill might be completely ineffective. Studies have shown that women who have moderate to severe hormonal problems have the hormonal problems corrected while on birth control, so their ability to get pregnant isn't only unhampered, but it's actually easier to get pregnant.

Abstinence is one hundred percent fool proof.

So is having your sexual organs lopped off, but neither one are especially practical now are they?