Is a Good Man deemed not Good because his faith is diffrent?

[G4m]

I have been asking myself a question for a while. The question is that if you are not a Christian are you a sinner because of your lack of faith? What if you do not believe in God, but you live a moral and righteous life because of your natural desire to care for people and empathy for those around you? Is a good person damned to hell because he does not believe in God or Jesus? Is a Buddhist monk who practices non-violence, love, and forgiveness going to be Judge as one who sins?

This has been something that has bothered me. I could not understand how a good person could be deemed not good because he does not share the same belief as me.

I am very thankful that I searched out an answer for this question and I found it.

In Romans 2:12-16 Paul writes, "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

Now some will argue that the word Gentile means a Christian. That is true if you look at the definition that is applied this day and age. The definition of the word Gentile during the time Paul was teaching and during the times of Jesus, the archaic definition, is a Pagan or a Heathen.

What is a Pagan? A Pagan is one who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew. It is also one who has no religion.

What is a Heathen? A Heathen is one who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

Why, if there were Christians at the time, would the word Gentile not mean a Christian? Well, because at the time no one considered themselves a Christian. The word Christian did not even exist. The people still considered themselves to be Jews, but they also were considered followers of "the way" or, the way of Jesus. In the above written words of Paul we are told that it does not matter if you are a "Christian" or not as long as you naturally live by the laws God has set for mankind.

Please, if you feel that I am wrong then correct me but don't just tell me I am wrong, show me where and why I am wrong. Give me examples or tell me what to read. I enjoy enhancing and exploring my faith and what it means.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

 

[visionary]

I myself have poundered over this question so many times. Don't have a conclusion for anyone else but me. Let me set up my background. I am of chinese descent having grown up in an island country singapore. My family's religion is one of traditional chinese ancestoral worship. Can't really explain it except that it's a mix of Buddhism, Taoism and ancient chinese philosophy.
Converted to Christianity because of influence from extended family. 12 years old at that time. Read the bible and accepted Jesus as my God. Over the course of many years of believing that all are going to hell unless they become Christians I started to question that believe once I was in the US going to a Baptist University. I started to question EVERY belief!
My conclusion? Heaven and hell does not matter. Saved or not. Does not matter. God is more concerned about how people treat one another. God is more interested in my desire to please him. Period.
Scriptural bases for that? When asked which of the commandments were the greatest? " Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul your strength" "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Remove all the rubbish and start with the core / foundation which, between you, God, The Word of God, and the Holy Spirit will build the temple of God which is you, into a House of Prayer, which is to last forever.

 

[danclang]

Remove all the rubbish and start with the core / foundation which, between you, God, The Word of God, and the Holy Spirit will build the temple of God which is you, into a House of Prayer, which is to last forever.

Would you eleborate further? I read it over several times and was not able to decipher intend.

 

[sara elizabeth]

A really good book on this subject is
Since Nobody's perfect...How Good is Good Enough
By Andy Stanley
Multnomah Publishers
www.multnomahbooks.com
www.howgoodisgoodenough.com

 

[sinner/SAVED]

A really good book on this subject is
Since Nobody's perfect...How Good is Good Enough
By Andy Stanley
Multnomah Publishers
www.multnomahbooks.com
www.howgoodisgoodenough.comhttp://www.howgoodisgoodenough.comhttp://www.howgoodisgoodenough.comhttp://www.howgoodisgoodenough.com

This is a very good book.

 

[visionary]

I started to question EVERY belief!
My conclusion? Heaven and hell does not matter. Saved or not. Does not matter. God is more concerned about how people treat one another. God is more interested in my desire to please him. Period.

It was this part of what you said that got m\e to write what I did....

Remove all the rubbish and start with the core / foundation which, between you, God, The Word of God, and the Holy Spirit will build the temple of God which is you, into a House of Prayer, which is to last forever.

You have already started the remove of two thousand years worth of "yada yada yada" from the multitudes of men throughout the generations since Jesus. Not all of them were inspired as you have discovered so far...but you have a long ways to go to not have this world in you. As Jesus said, "I am not of this world"... and His world is not like this world, even in the religious world, it is not like Christ's. Seek deeper than those who claim they know Him go into His Word. Ask Him to show you the deep things, remember that in order to learn these you will have to repent of your preconceived notions, you will have to give up the worldly religious concepts, and you will have to be willing to follow the Holy Spirit through the Word of God trusting God to lead you to Him who is able to save to the uttermost. Remember Rev 3:20 is a real personal experience promised to any believer who is willing to come and open up the door. That Holy communion with Him will reveal far more in a moment than all the sermons that you will hear in this lifetime, they will show you the truth in all its grandeur and they will change you forever.

 

[Eternal Mindset]

Read the bible and accepted Jesus as my God. Over the course of many years of believing that all are going to hell unless they become Christians I started to question that believe once I was in the US going to a Baptist University. I started to question EVERY belief!
My conclusion? Heaven and hell does not matter. Saved or not. Does not matter. God is more concerned about how people treat one another. God is more interested in my desire to please him. Period.
Scriptural bases for that? When asked which of the commandments were the greatest? " Love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul your strength" "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Love is important, but without accepting the gift of salvation, they are not clean of sin, and God cannot accept them into Heaven.

In brotherly love,
Eternal Mindset

 

[danclang]

It was this part of what you said that got m\e to write what I did....You have already started the remove of two thousand years worth of "yada yada yada" from the multitudes of men throughout the generations since Jesus. Not all of them were inspired as you have discovered so far...but you have a long ways to go to not have this world in you. As Jesus said, "I am not of this world"... and His world is not like this world, even in the religious world, it is not like Christ's. Seek deeper than those who claim they know Him go into His Word. Ask Him to show you the deep things, remember that in order to learn these you will have to repent of your preconceived notions, you will have to give up the worldly religious concepts, and you will have to be willing to follow the Holy Spirit through the Word of God trusting God to lead you to Him who is able to save to the uttermost. Remember Rev 3:20 is a real personal experience promised to any believer who is willing to come and open up the door. That Holy communion with Him will reveal far more in a moment than all the sermons that you will hear in this lifetime, they will show you the truth in all its grandeur and they will change you forever.

Thanks for the insight. Although I appreciate your thoughts, I do not think that the Revealation should be cannonized in the first place. I do not believe in transubstantiation. Lord's supper is, for me, more of reflection of my relationship with God. The pre-conceived notion you said is interesting. My sociology background gives me a lot of insight into cultural biases and other ethnocentric beliefs. As far as religion is concerned. I believe it is a personal matter. Is a Good Man deemed not Good because of his faith? Gandhi learned of the beatitudes and modeled his life like so. No good enough? Great man in hell? Selfless, righteous, repent and humble. Heaven or hell? Who's to decide? Not I. I don't care if I end up in hell. Don't care if I end up in heaven either. Really don't. For me, the ultimate gift is now. I have life, life more abuntantly.

 

[Eternal Mindset]

Heaven or hell? Who's to decide? Not I. I don't care if I end up in hell. Don't care if I end up in heaven either. Really don't. For me, the ultimate gift is now. I have life, life more abuntantly.

Have you ever really, really thought about eternity?

Now is nothing...you are going to be around somewhere forever.
This place is virtually nothing compared to the life we are going to live.

No one is mortal, death isn't just a "Congratulations, you're in heaven." or "Sorry, you're going to hell." and it's over.
Death is just being born into a life that you will never leave, in which death is non existant.

Would you rather spend eternity (and really think about what eternity means) in an awesome place, or the worst place imaginable?

In brotherly love,
Eternal Mindset

 

[FullyAmbivalent]

You are a sinner because you have sinned.
No descendant of man has ever lived a life without sin, and no descendant of man ever will.
The only way for someone to pay for their sins is to acknowledge that Jesus is their savior.

A Buddhist monk cannot love; we love because God loved us first, and without God they cannot truly love. Without God in their life their acts are empty and meaningless.
They will burn in hell if they do not acknowledge Jesus as their savior.

It stinks to think these people who do good things on Earth will burn in hell, but when you think about it: All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light; no one goes to the Father except through him. And we are saved by faith and not works.

As for hearing the law and being judged by it; A man will not be judged by laws he has not heard, but he will also not be rewarded for obeying the laws he did not know existed. It's all about conscience and heart attitude.

And again; the gentiles did not follow the Christian way, but they knew right from wrong. They had a conscience. All Paul was saying is that they would be judged by their conscience. If they had even 1 sin that they knew was sin, they would burn in hell for it because they had not accepted the gift of salvation from Christ.

I hope this clears this issue up for you

In brotherly love,
Eternal Mindset

A Buddhist monk cannot love; we love because God loved us first, and without God they cannot truly love. Without God in their life their acts are empty and meaningless.
They will burn in hell if they do not acknowledge Jesus as their savior.

In Proverbs 8 and 9 we are taught that one must seek out wisdom and knowledge so that we will not be ignorant because in ignorance we are most likely to sin.

Have you ever read in to Buddhism? I mean really looked into it. Do you have any real understand or experience with it? I suggest before you speak so narrowmindly towards another type of faith or belief you at least take the time to understand it. A good book for you to read might be Living Buddha, Living Christ. It is only $14 and you can get it at any major book store.

 

[Eternal Mindset]

In Proverbs 8 and 9 we are taught that one must seek out wisdom and knowledge so that we will not be ignorant because in ignorance we are most likely to sin.

Have you ever read in to Buddhism? I mean really looked into it. Do you have any real understand or experience with it? I suggest before you speak so narrowmindly towards another type of faith or belief you at least take the time to understand it. A good book for you to read might be Living Buddha, Living Christ. It is only $14 and you can get it at any major book store.

Narrow mindedly?

Quoting scripture is narrow minded?

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light; no one goes to the Father except through him. And we are saved by faith and not works

I'm sorry, but now I'm going to be blatantly narrow minded since you've taken this to disregarding scripture as "narrow minded" in exchange for some book; Why would I waste $14 on a stupid book written by someone who is going to die (if they haven't already) when I have another book inspired by God (who is, alive, and always will be).

And yes, I have read into buddhism. Some of it's followers are very nice people, but that's all they are, and all they ever can be: nice people.

How can someone recieve the gift of salvation if they won't accept it?
They can't.

If you're trying to say they don't need Jesus to be saved, then your saying Jesus was a fool...why would God's son come to Earth and live a perfect life to die a horrible death if it wasn't necessary?
Only a fool would do that.

Please, never, ever again, tell me that quoting scripture is "narrow minded", or that I should look to a book other than the Bible for religious advice. I can honestly tell you I have been deeply offended by your disregard for scripture, and for treating me like an incompetant fool.

Please read my post and consider what I have said.

In brotherly love,
Eternal Mindset

 

[California Tim]

What is constantly overlooked here is the standard by which a man will be measured to determine if he is "good" or not. I'm afraid that standard will NOT be how we stack up against other people. The standard by which we will be judged is PERFECTION by a HOLY God. According to Him:

As it is written:
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."* (Romans 3:10-12)​

So for anyone to declare "this man or that man was "good" enough.... -or- he was better than so-and-so in my eyes and should be in heaven...." does so in clear contradiction of the clearly written Word.

 

[danclang]

Have you ever really, really thought about eternity?

Now is nothing...you are going to be around somewhere forever.
This place is virtually nothing compared to the life we are going to live.

No one is mortal, death isn't just a "Congratulations, you're in heaven." or "Sorry, you're going to hell." and it's over.
Death is just being born into a life that you will never leave, in which death is non existant.

Would you rather spend eternity (and really think about what eternity means) in an awesome place, or the worst place imaginable?

In brotherly love,
Eternal Mindset

Eternal Mindset, I want to say thanks for the "fore" call. I have comtemplated what eternity would mean. The stick and carrot thing do not work for me. I have no concept of eternity because I do not live in eternity. I am bless to find myself in the current situation that I am in. Human and loving it. I do not look forward to living forever and ever amen.
I realize True worship is to be pure and unincumbered. To worship God in comtemplation of eternal life in heaven is like our attitude when we pay taxes and expect the streets to be maintained and the police to come when called. I say worship your God with every ounce of being and leave it as that. Don't expect more, don't expect anything in return. Give unexpectantly. Love unexpectantly. Worship unexpectantly. Live for God unexpectantly. Some of you may be offended by what I am about to say. But to believe in Jesus Christ as savior and so you may end up in heaven in eternity, is the same as the any other religion in the world which humans (greeks for example) do certain things to appease their gods for personal gain.

 

[Reformationist]

Not I. I don't care if I end up in hell. Don't care if I end up in heaven either.

Are you a Christian?

 

[Reformationist]

Have you ever read in to Buddhism? I mean really looked into it. Do you have any real understand or experience with it? I suggest before you speak so narrowmindly towards another type of faith or belief you at least take the time to understand it.

Why would we look into Buddhism? It's an idolatrous belief system that avails for nothing except condemnation.

A good book for you to read might be Living Buddha, Living Christ. It is only $14 and you can get it at any major book store.

Are you trying to draw a parallel, or give credence to a system of belief that draws a parallel, between the One, true God and an idol?

 

[Reformationist]

What is constantly overlooked here is the standard by which a man will be measured to determine if he is "good" or not. I'm afraid that standard will NOT be how we stack up against other people. The standard by which we will be judged is PERFECTION by a HOLY God. According to Him:

As it is written:

"There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."* (Romans 3:10-12)
​

So for anyone to declare "this man or that man was "good" enough.... -or- he was better than so-and-so in my eyes and should be in heaven...." does so in clear contradiction of the clearly written Word.

Very good post CT. Nicely said.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

But to believe in Jesus Christ as savior and so you may end up in heaven in eternity, is the same as the any other religion in the world which humans (greeks for example) do certain things to appease their gods for personal gain.

So I'm not mistaken are you saying that you don't believe Jesus is the Savior or are you merely encouraging us to reflect on our reasons for viewing Christ in the way in which we do, i.e., for selfless or selfish reasons?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[FullyAmbivalent]

"Gentile" is anyone who is not a Jew. To the Hebrews there were two kinds of people: the Jewish people and everyone else - the Gentiles. Does not mean Christian, does not mean pagan, does not mean heathen. Just means not Jewish.

I believe that was pretty much the point I was making.........

 

[FullyAmbivalent]

I was very turned off by the Christian religion for a long time. My main reason for this was because I saw most of those who go about telling everyone they are great Christians often did not so great things. So many times I encountered people who would pray and then use racial slurs in conversation. So many times I saw people in church balancing their check books or some other non important task. So many times did I see people with raised hands in worship, but the second they left the church could care less about the people around them. How selfish, to use religion as a means to bring temporary glorification to yourself; to make you feel good. It was like a lust for religion; a lust for Jesus and God. The problem with lusting after anything is that you miss the real meaning. When you lust for a woman, you miss her mind and spirit. When you lust you are only seeking to gratify yourself and your own needs. It is great to feel great, but is feeling great going to save us?

I know now that there are Christians that see the true meaning of what God teaches.

I read the Bible in order to disprove it. I wanted to justify my disapproval for the actions of people around me. Not in the sense that I could tell them they are wrong because the bible says this, but more so that I could say look what the bible preaches, what good is it.

I realized after reading the Bible that it is not the Bible or the Religion that had it wrong. It was the people. So many people allow the world to influence their religion. That man on TV said to kill them all in the name of the Lord? It must be true! NO.

The Bible and the Christian Religion (Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist religions as well.. plus others.) teach us to be mindful of our time on earth and that we should love and respect each other. We are taught that we must be mindful. We must live a righteous life. We must love and seek peace. We must explore and understand. We must be strong when we are weak and weak when we are strong. We must give to those who are in need.

All of these can be done without the Bible or without Jesus. Some would like to tell you differently. What Jesus gives us is something to be faithful in and something to remind us of what our life is meant to be like. What Jesus gives us is a foundation to build on. He is our rock. He is our goal. We are to live as Jesus lived. Just as a Buddhist is to live as Buddha did. Just as a Muslim is to live as Mohammad did.

We should have faith that in believing in Jesus we will be saved, but part of believing and accepting Jesus is living as Jesus lived.

How can you have faith in Jesus but not have faith that we can live as Jesus lived? The biggest message in the New Testament is that we must worship in action. We must love in action. We must forgive in action. We must give in action. We must be selfless.

In 1 Peter 1:13-17 we read, “Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: ‘Be holy, because I am holy (lev. 11:44,45; 19:2 ; 20:7)’ Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.”

In 1 Peter 1:22-23 we read, “Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.”

We learn here that we must obey the truth of Gods law to purify your self and to be saved. Jesus teaches God’s law. Jesus and God are one. So to be pure you must first take action and obey the law of God and then you are fit for salvation through Christ.

However, if we look to Romans 2:6-15 we learn from Paul, “God ‘will give to each person according to what he has done. (Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12).’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, now even defending them.)”

This tells me that actions are more important then words and faith is nothing without actions. We are not saved if we sit around saying, “oh, I believe in Jesus and I feel warm in side” and do nothing to obey the Laws of God. Do you think God will really see this ideal selfishness as a saving grace? What Paul is saying to us in the text above is that actions are so important that even if you do not have the law, but by natural desire for good follow them, that you are just as faithful as those who know the law and follow it. If you have faith in and obey the law without having the law or knowing the law are you not in a subconscious way showing your faith in the Teachings of Jesus?

What I also read here is that if you have the law and you know the law but you still fall short of the law you are not saved. Simple faith without action does not bring salvation. What good are you to God if you do not do good for yourself and other creations of God?

I know some of you are now going to rebuke with the line, “we are not perfect and cannot ever truly follow the Law of God without failing” but I tell you to read Deuteronomy 30:1-14. This text reads as follows:

“When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your fathers, if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, 'Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?' Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, 'Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?' No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."

Why do you say it is so difficult to follow God’s Laws when he tells you it is not? It is a matter of faith. Do you have faith in love? Do you have faith in forgiveness? Do you have faith in turning the other cheek? Do you have faith in Jesus?

To enter heaven through Jesus is to take Jesus in your heart. To take Jesus into your heart means to make your self as Jesus was.

Are not those who make themselves as Jesus was, even without knowing, also taking Jesus into their hearts and in so doing are they not also granting themselves salvation?

With all that said. It seems that the most important lesson to learn is to be selfless and to love.

Love does no harm.

 

[Reformationist]

I believe that was pretty much the point I was making.........

If it was it was very unclear. You said, "The definition of the word Gentile during the time Paul was teaching and during the times of Jesus, the archaic definition, is a Pagan or a Heathen. What is a Pagan? A Pagan is one who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew. It is also one who has no religion. What is a Heathen? A Heathen is one who adheres to the religion of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam." So, according to you, a Gentile, during the time of Paul, was an athiest or an idol worshiper. That is far from being the same thing as "anyone who is not a Jew."

God bless