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I did. Where does any of my verses say different? No one can be saved or maintain their salvation by any of their own efforts as you imply with Jam 2:24.Describe for me, this, "faith alone."
Also, show me in the scriptures where it specifically says that "faith alone" saves us.
And explain why you disagree with James who said that "faith alone" or "faith only" does not by itself save us?
James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
I issued you and 'I Agree' on the point that no one can be saved by works alone. Not on your mistake as to what I imply.I did. Where does any of my verses say different? No one can be saved or maintain their salvation by any of their own efforts as you imply with Jam 2:24.
bugkiller
I John 4
11 Dear friends, if this is how God loved us, then we should love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in union with us, and his love is made perfect in us.
13 We are sure that we live in union with God and that he lives in union with us, because he has given us his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and tell others that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If we declare that Jesus is the Son of God, we live in union with God and God lives in union with us. 16 And we ourselves know and believe the love which God has for us.
God is love, and those who live in love live in union with God and God lives in union with them. 17 Love is made perfect in us in order that we may have courage on the Judgment Day; and we will have it because our life in this world is the same as Christ's. 18 There is no fear in love; perfect love drives out all fear. So then, love has not been made perfect in anyone who is afraid, because fear has to do with punishment.
19 We love because God first loved us. 20 If we say we love God, but hate others, we are liars. For we cannot love God, whom we have not seen, if we do not love others, whom we have seen. 21 The command that Christ has given us is this: whoever loves God must love others also.
See I Cor 13
Gal 5
13 As for you, my friends, you were called to be free. But do not let this freedom become an excuse for letting your physical desires control you. Instead, let love make you serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is summed up in one commandment: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” 15 But if you act like wild animals, hurting and harming each other, then watch out, or you will completely destroy one another.
The Spirit and Human Nature
16 What I say is this: let the Spirit direct your lives, and you will not satisfy the desires of the human nature. 17 For what our human nature wants is opposed to what the Spirit wants, and what the Spirit wants is opposed to what our human nature wants. These two are enemies, and this means that you cannot do what you want to do. 18 If the Spirit leads you, then you are not subject to the Law.
19 What human nature does is quite plain. It shows itself in immoral, filthy, and indecent actions; 20 in worship of idols and witchcraft. People become enemies and they fight; they become jealous, angry, and ambitious. They separate into parties and groups; 21 they are envious, get drunk, have orgies, and do other things like these. I warn you now as I have before: those who do these things will not possess the Kingdom of God.
22 But the Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 humility, and self-control. There is no law against such things as these. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature with all its passions and desires. 25 The Spirit has given us life; he must also control our lives. 26 We must not be proud or irritate one another or be jealous of one another.
Short answer, serve each other in Love = No Law.
The Law applies only when preaching the gospel to secular folk. The Law shows that folk have fallen short of the glory of God and that they are not righteous before him. The Law is the "tutor" to draw people to Christ. It is there to show sinners their sin. If we preach the gospel without applying Law first, we make the mistake of leading folk into easy believerism without them being convicted of their sinfulness first. But once a person has turned to Christ and receives the Holy Spirit, then the Law is fulfilled and the Holy Spirit leads the person on the sanctification path and does what the Law could not do: change the person's heart and attitude and give them the desire to live holy lives before God.
There is no mention in the New Testament of a "carnal Christian" as such, although Paul did say that some were "carnal", them being able only able to accept the milk of the Word, that is, the first principles of the faith. The writer to the Hebrews says that we should move forward from the foundations. But the problem with many of our churches and believers, they have not even mastered the foundations that Hebrews says that we should progress from! So, by that definition, 90% of church members could be described by Paul as "carnal" because they still concentrate on the basics.
The Change of the Law:The Mosaic Law (as a whole package deal) no longer exists. It became obsolete with Christ's death. It is obvious the Old Law does not still exist because various commands in the New Testament have changed what the Old Law says. For example: Paul says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Jesus says to us that we are no longer to render an eye for an eye but we are to turn the other cheek. When Jesus died upon the cross, the temple veil was torn letting us know that the laws on the priesthood and the animal sacrifices were no longer valid anymore. Jesus is our Heavenly High Priest and He is our Passover Lamb. Paul says we are no longer to judge according to Sabbaths and holy days. Peter was told to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law).
(Hebrews 7:12)
However, that does not mean God does not have other laws (or commands) for us today. In fact, one must understand that God has "Eternal Moral Laws" for man since after his "fall" in the Garden. After the "fall": It was always wrong to murder, commit adultery, sleep with one's parents, get drunk, hate your brother, covet, lie, commit idolatry, etc. These Moral laws existed before the written Law and they still exist today. The written Law of Moses merely repeated them or emphasized them. But in addition to these moral laws, there were laws (within the Old Law) that were exclusive to the nation of Israel. These are ceremonial laws (like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, the dietary laws, animal sacrifices involving a priesthood) and civil laws (like on how to manage farming etc.) and judicial laws (like regulating legal matters). There were a total of 613 Commands in the Old Testament Law of Moses. Some of these Laws are God's Eternal Moral Laws; Others are exclusively for Israel and do not apply to us. Believers today are under the New Testament (i.e. the New Covenant) with new laws (Which would include God's Eternal Moral Laws). Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed (along with the change of the priesthood).
Jesus did not come to abrogate God's Eternal Moral Laws (like do not murder, do not hate, do not commit adultery, do not steal, etc.). Jesus nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us (like the Saturday Sabbath, the death penalty for disobeying God's laws, circumcision, the dietary laws, etc.) (See Colossians 2:14-17). Jesus says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17). So Jesus did not come to destroy all Law and it's consequences but He came to fulfill them into their true intended purpose with the commands given to us within the New Testament. These commands are based on love. Love God and love your neighbor.
The Mosaic Law was addressed only to Israel and today to Jewish People.
Secular Society has the law of God on their hearts. Romans 2:15
Some Societies has laws against stealing and murder.
Carnal Christian falls under I John 1:8-10 and God's Disciple.
The meaning of "not under the law" is that no one can be saved by keeping the law. The nation of Israel was obligated to keep the spirit of all Gods law and temple requirements (and be blessed) or if they rebelled,( by their own sworn oath) be cursed. They often kept the cerimonial laws but violated the moral laws, usually by twisting them to suit their sinful desires and deny responsibility to others such as the poor and downcast or to defraud their brother in some way.
We are moral beings and will never be free from moral law (what is right and wrong), not here or in heaven. Satan broke the moral law that God alone is worthy to be worshipped. If God were not the only one with the credentials then He could be challenged and it would not be a moral issue, but a power issue. Since God alone is worthy, He is morally obligated to ensure His ongoing rule and reign or else cease being a loving wise fool and perfect God.
In conclusion: Yes christians are to keep those OT laws that are morally wrong to violate, i.e violating the keeping of the Sabbath as Saturday, given to the nation of Israel, is not morally wrong for a christian but the other 9 will always be. However as said earlier keeping them will save no one unless they have never broken one jot. Too late, "all have sinned and fallen short" so all are in need of the Savior.
Look up "Antinomianism" this the name given to those who believe the moral law does not apply to them"
Hello Daniel,
Your question "Is a Christian really subject to the Old Testament Law?" is clearly answered in the book of Galatians written by Paul. The whole 6 chapters explains clearly that Jesus came to free us from the law and that we are only, and I emphasize "only," justified by grace given by Jesus Christ.
To give some examples of what Paul is saying, in Galatians 2:21 it says "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing."(NIV)
First of all, the law in the OT is VERY extensive. There was nobody who could say that he or she kept those commandments without fail. Therefore, if we think that the law could justify our faith, we lose sight of Jesus Christ who came fully knowing that we are going to miss the mark of God EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. If we are bound by the law even after knowing that God has freed us then we are dismissing what Christ did on the cross for us.
Think about it like this. Let's say that you are in a jail cell, and that cell represents the bondage of sin, Jesus Christ came to set you free. He has unlocked the shackles from your wrists and opened the door to freedom. If you still remain in the law then you are choosing to remain in your cell all the while the door is open and all you have to do is step out of the cell and live in freedom.
Paul in Galatians 5 once again rebukes the people of Galatia. It says in verses 2-4, "Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (NIV)
Understand the context that circumcision was considered the sign that you are a part of God's community. As you might already know, same as baptism, circumcision doesn't grant you salvation. Only your faith in Jesus Christ does. Paul is essentially questioning why the people of Galatia has gone back to the law when they were doing so well before. I love the verse "you have fallen away from grace." Let's remember that without grace, we are nothing. Without grace, we will all end up in hell. God in His mercy, sent his Son, as a lamb to die for us. Let us not forget that we are justified by what Jesus Christ has done, and definitely not what we did.
God bless,
Joseph
Hello,
Is it possible for someone to follow of Christ by rejecting the Law that he followed and taught his followers to follow by word and by example?
Jesus was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to God's Law, and as his followers, we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:3-6), to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1), and that our sanctification is about being made to be like him (1 John 3:2). All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and return to obedience to His Law and Jesus began his ministry with the same Gospel message (Matthew 4:17, 23), so can you really not see how absurd it is to interpret Paul in Galatians as saying that if we believe the Gospel message, repent and turn to back to obedience to God's commands, and seek by faith to follow the Law that Christ taught his followers to obey by word and by example, then we make Christ of no value to us? Not only have you made the colossal error of interpreting Paul as teaching against obeying God, you have compounded your error by then choosing to follow what you think Paul said instead of what God said, as though Paul had more authority than God. We must obey God rather than man and should let no man keep us from obeying God, even Paul if you think that was what he was doing.
Your error stems from the fact that you have not distinguished between what was said about God's Law and about man-made works of law because Paul only spoke against obeying works of law and never spoke against obeying God. While God did require Gentiles to who were part of Abraham's household to become circumcised (Genesis 17:27) or if they wanted to eat of the Passover lamb (Exodus 12:48), God did not require all Gentiles to become circumcised. Furthermore, while God did require all Jews to become circumcised, not even Jews were required to do so in order to become saved, so the problem in Acts 15 and Galatians that by trying to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved they were using circumcision for a man-made purpose that was actually contrary to the purposes of God.
In Isaiah 45:25, it says that all Israel will be saved, so some Jews mistakenly thought that meant that Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes in order to become saved, which meant becoming circumcised, which which meant joining the group of people who agreed at Sinai to do everything Moses said (Exodus 20:19). However, Moses delegated this authority on Jethro's advice and by the 1st century those who had this authority passed down to them were referred to as sitting in Moses' seat and it had become a large body of supplementary oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences, that they taught for how to obey God's Law, which they taught people needed to obey in order to become saved, and which Jesus referred to as placing a heavy burden on the people (Matthew 23:2-4). So by becoming circumcised, Gentiles becoming Jewish proselytes and agreeing to live as Jews according to all of their oral laws and traditions and doing so in order to become saved, and these were the works of law that Paul was arguing against, not against anyone obeying God's Law.
Righteousness does not come by the Law primarily because it was never given for that purpose, so it is that much more true for man-made works of law. Likewise, the need for perfect obedience has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the Law and of God's character. It makes God out to be some sort of tyrant for punishing us for not meeting an impossible standard or makes Him out to be an unloving Father who gave the Law to essentially put all of His children under a curse, but rather the He said that the Law was given for our own good and to bless us, and I believe Him (Deuteronomy 6:24). The Law itself comes with instructions for what to do when we sin and repentance would pointless because it would already be too late to have perfect obedience, yet every single prophet up to and including Jesus came with a message of repentance, so whether we continue to practice repentance is the key distinction between keeping the law or not. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what He commanded was not too difficult for us, but that His Word was near us, in our hearts and in our mouth so that we can obey it, and Romans 10:4-10 quotes this passage in regard to what our faith says and what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord, so to say that it is too difficult for us to obey the Law is to call God a liar and to deny what our faith says.
Sin is defined as the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4) and we have not been set free from the Law, but rather we have been set free from sin so that we can be free to live in obedience to the Law. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to free us from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness, so we should not return to the Lawlessness that Christ gave himself to redeem us from.
Sin is defined as the transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4) and we have not been set free from the Law, but rather we have been set free from sin so that we can be free to live in obedience to the Law. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to free us from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness, so we should not return to the Lawlessness that Christ gave himself to redeem us from.
Well thanks and you can take it back if you like. Here is what I said - "What does matter is one is saved by faith in Jesus alone as all that is required." No where will you ever see me say anything different. Works are not required to receive the free gift. Otherwise it is payment and not a gift. It is not Jesus and .... or faith and works of any kind.I issued you and 'I Agree' on the point that no one can be saved by works alone. Not on your mistake as to what I imply.
But James clearly has told you that neither is anyone saved by faith apart from works. Whether you wish to agree with him is up to you. That is none of my business. But James did also very clearly say, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17
When we study we need to always remember to ask ourselves not only what did the writer say, but also what did the writer not say.
Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Perhaps also you should ask your self if love can be love without love works good toward the object of its affection?
The issue is not about conduct. The issue is about being required to keep the covenant at least in part that was given to Israel. The Christian has no obligation to any part of the that covenant. If you want to argue about sin, it was before the law, therefore it has nothing to do with the law. The purpose of the law is clearly given in Rom 11:32 -In regard to Galatians 5:18, Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law, such as God's Law, the law of sin, and works of law, so it is important to diligently determine which law he was speaking about us not being under. Unless you want to argue that the Spirit is in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have, then you should agree that the Law of the Spirit is the same as the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses, so we can easily rule out God's Law from the list of possibilities. Furthermore, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to the Law and in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have a mind set on the flesh, who refuse to submit to God's Law. In addition, everything that is listed in Galatians 5:19-23 as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it, so it would make no sense whatsoever to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring to us not being under God's Law. Rather, Galatians 5:17 speaks about how the desires of the flesh caused us not to do the good that we want to do, which is exactly how Paul described his struggle with the law of sin.
In Roman 7:12-25, Paul said that God's Law is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), that it is the good he delighted in obeying (7:22), and that he served it with his mind (7:25), but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive (7:23), which caused him not to do the good of obeying God's Law that he wanted to do (7:13-20), and which he served with his flesh (7:25). So when we are led by the Spirit we are under God's holy, righteous, and good Law, and not under the law of sin, which hinders us from doing the good of obeying God's Law that we want to do. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and how to love our neighbor, so it precisely is the law of love.
You are trying to prove because we do not murder we are observing part of the law, the suggesting we should comply with the rest of the law, specifically the 4th commandment. My unregenerate neighbor does not murder. Is he therefore following part of the law given to Israel? How? He will tell you what to do with your religion.If you believe that God's Law was given to reveal what sin is and that Gentiles are required to refrain from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should therefore believe that Gentiles are required to obey God's Law. It would make no sense to say that now that the Law has convicted us of our sin, brought us to Christ, and we are led by the Spirit, that we can now go back to doing any of the things that the Law convicted us of doing. Rather, the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to the Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with that who have a carnal mind, who refuse to submit to God's Law. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as carnal works that are against the Spirit are also against the Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have, so the Law of the Spirit is the same as the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses.
In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith in one of the weightier matters of the Law, and in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commands, so the Law brings us to Christ because it primarily there to teach us about him and how to have a relationship with him based on faith and love. Now that Christ has come, we have a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His Law in accordance with the example that Christ taught us to follow by word and by example. There are a number of verses that refer to God's Law as teaching us to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Joshua 22:5, Isaiah 2:2-3, Psalms 103:7, and many others, so the Law was primarily given to teach us how to reflect God's attributes in accordance with the fruits of the Spirit. Pointing out where we sin has significance only insofar as it leads us to repent and back to walking in God's ways.
The law is obsolete for the Christian -Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness can't become obsolete without God's righteousness first becoming obsolete. There is nothing that Jesus said in Matthew 5 to indicate that he was speaking about his death, nothing that he said about his death to indicate that he was fulfilling the law through it, and certainly nothing that he said to indicate that he was doing away with God's righteous standard, so there is no good reason to associate these. In Titus 2:11-14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to free us from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness, so we should not return to the Lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from.
Crosses were never used as a means of disposing of outdated laws, such that they had to legislate new laws to replace the old ones whenever someone was crucified, but rather what was written on crosses was the announcement of the charges against the person being crucified or the violations of the law that they had committed (Matthew 27:37). This fits perfectly with the concept of the charges against us or violations of God's Law that we have committed being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but does not at all fit with God doing away with His eternal righteousness or with His instructions for how to act in accordance with it.
If you look at Colossians 2:16 by itself, then it is ambiguous as to when Paul was saying not to let anyone judge them for keeping God's holy days or for not keeping them, but it we look at the context of the views of the people judging them and keep in mind the theme that we must obey God rather than man, then it becomes clear:
Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Paul would never have described those who were teaching obedience to the holy, righteous, and good commands of God in accordance with the example that Christ set for his followers as taking people captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition and not according to Christ. He went into more details about what these elemental spirits of the world are later in the chapter:
Colossians 2:20-23 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
So the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to His commands and in accordance with the example Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged by those teach human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was writing to encourage them not to let any man judge them keep them from obeying God.
In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's Law and according to Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that the Father instructed His people to tell that someone was a false prophet was if they taught against obeying what He commanded, so as can be confident that neither Jesus nor any of the Apostles ever did this. In 2 Peter 3:15-17, it says that Paul was difficult to understand, but that those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of Lawlessness, so again we can be confident that Paul never spoke against anyone obeying any of God's commands, but if you nevertheless think that he did, then you still ought to obey God because God has more authority than Paul and no one has the authority to countermand Him.
Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws and the Bible never describes disobedience to any of God's commands as being moral.
If I were to think about God by the actions of Israel or any other people, I would not consider God in my life. Who in their right mind would want that? It only adds to one's troubles.While the Mosaic Law was only addressed to Israel, it was never meant only for them because Israel was given the role by God of being a light to the nations, of blessing them by teaching them to turn from their wicked ways and how to walk in God's ways (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6, Deuteronomy 4:5-8, Genesis 22:18). There are many other verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Joshua 22:5, and Psalms 103:7, so it was not given as instructions for how to live as a Jew, but as instructions to God's followers for how to reflect His attributes. There was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt with them (Exodus 12:38) and Israel was inclusive of the foreigners (Joshua 8:33), so Israel has always included righteous Gentiles who have affiliated themselves with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and who walk in His ways.
We are not morally required to be Jews or submit to the law given to them.The Bible does not make any distinction between moral and non-moral laws and nowhere does it describe someone's disobedience to any of God's commands as being moral. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of His laws are inherently moral laws and it is always immoral to disobey any of His commands.
So just give up and throw in the towel and follow the law.Never did I say that the OT law should be disobeyed and never did I say that Paul's words were greater than Jesus'. Yes I do understand where you're coming from in that I only specifically quoted Paul and that I didn't put emphasis on the topic of obeying the law, in other words obeying God.
Let me clarify what my argument is. Christianity is solely based on Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Without Christ everything is meaningless. I hope you agree with this point because if you do not, there's no point in discussing anything else. Assuming that you agree, I agree with your words,
Once again, I did not say that you can follow Jesus by rejecting the Law. You are branching off of what I DID NOT say and assuming that I am not aware of your arguments just because I did not mention it. I only said that the greater emphasis should be placed on Jesus rather than the works of the Law because you DO NOT receive salvation through your works but only through faith in Jesus Christ. You have to understand that even in the Old Testament, whether you were a jew or a gentile, the ONLY way to go to heaven is your faith that one day a savior would come to reconcile the broken relationship between God and mankind. Which is why present day Jews still await for a savior while we, Christians, don't.
It is my mistake that I didn't really mention the importance of obeying the Law. In Matthew 3:17 it says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Just like you said, we cannot ignore obeying the Law because Jesus did not necessarily take away the requirement of obeying God's laws. However, what I was trying to get across is that we can try to follow all the OT laws but we will quickly realize that we cannot follow them perfectly due to our sinful nature at our core. So let's just assume that we can go to heaven through your works. Then no one, and I mean NO ONE could go to heaven because no one is perfect. On the other hand, I do believe, while some might disagree, that your faith in Christ alone can get you to heaven. One example being the criminal that was next to Jesus during the Crucifixion who repented at the moment of His death and believed that Jesus Christ is truly the Son of the living God. Notice He only believed but didn't really do anything for the Kingdom. Jesus then told him that the criminal will be with him in paradise (Luke 23:39-43) and until this day we know about this criminal because of his "last minute conversion."
I do put emphasis on following God's laws given to us because a Christian's ultimate goal is not to go to heaven but to glorify God. God sent His one and only Son so that God can once again get all the glory just as in the Garden of Eden. If your goal is to just end up in heaven your reward in heaven will differ from the reward another Christian receives for truly following Jesus through obeying God's laws. At the end of the day though, the bridge that connects us to God is not the law but Jesus Christ. If your obedience to the Law does not stem from your faith in Christ then you are not a follower of Christ but a follower of the Law. That is the only reason why I placed more emphasis on your faith in Jesus Christ.
I only said that Christ died for no purpose if we put our trust in the Law to make us righteous because Christ came to free us from all lawlessness, like you said. I was just confused on your argument saying that I said that Paul's words are above Jesus' words. I believe that your argument is completely flawed. I did not cite any other source than the Bible. I want to make sure you understand that NONE of books in the Bible contradict one another nor is one above another. The Bible is the literal word of God and if you disagree with me on that than I will go the lengths to question what religion you are. If you ONLY believe Jesus' words or even place greater value on words over another solely because of the speaker who says them, then you are saying that you only believe portions of the Bible and that's just absurd. Every word in the Bible is written through a conviction from God meaning that it is from God. Therefore, Paul's words are not any LESS important than Jesus' words.
The main question I was trying to answer is this: "Is a Christian really subject to the OT law?". I said that you are NOT subject to the OT law but your faith in Christ should COMPEL you to obey them. Notice how I put faith in Christ before you obey the law. Think about it like this, your faith will get you to heaven but you obedience to the law will decide your reward in heaven. Logically, you cannot have your reward in heaven if you don't get to heaven. In conclusion, obedience to the law without faith, is meaningless.
Faith > Law.
Never did I say that the OT law should be disobeyed and never did I say that Paul's words were greater than Jesus'. Yes I do understand where you're coming from in that I only specifically quoted Paul and that I didn't put emphasis on the topic of obeying the law, in other words obeying God.
Let me clarify what my argument is. Christianity is solely based on Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Without Christ everything is meaningless. I hope you agree with this point because if you do not, there's no point in discussing anything else. Assuming that you agree, I agree with your words,
Once again, I did not say that you can follow Jesus by rejecting the Law. You are branching off of what I DID NOT say and assuming that I am not aware of your arguments just because I did not mention it. I only said that the greater emphasis should be placed on Jesus rather than the works of the Law because you DO NOT receive salvation through your works but only through faith in Jesus Christ. You have to understand that even in the Old Testament, whether you were a jew or a gentile, the ONLY way to go to heaven is your faith that one day a savior would come to reconcile the broken relationship between God and mankind. Which is why present day Jews still await for a savior while we, Christians, don't.
It is my mistake that I didn't really mention the importance of obeying the Law. In Matthew 3:17 it says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Just like you said, we cannot ignore obeying the Law because Jesus did not necessarily take away the requirement of obeying God's laws. However, what I was trying to get across is that we can try to follow all the OT laws but we will quickly realize that we cannot follow them perfectly due to our sinful nature at our core. So let's just assume that we can go to heaven through your works. Then no one, and I mean NO ONE could go to heaven because no one is perfect. On the other hand, I do believe, while some might disagree, that your faith in Christ alone can get you to heaven.
One example being the criminal that was next to Jesus during the Crucifixion who repented at the moment of His death and believed that Jesus Christ is truly the Son of the living God. Notice He only believed but didn't really do anything for the Kingdom. Jesus then told him that the criminal will be with him in paradise (Luke 23:39-43) and until this day we know about this criminal because of his "last minute conversion."
I do put emphasis on following God's laws given to us because a Christian's ultimate goal is not to go to heaven but to glorify God. God sent His one and only Son so that God can once again get all the glory just as in the Garden of Eden. If your goal is to just end up in heaven your reward in heaven will differ from the reward another Christian receives for truly following Jesus through obeying God's laws. At the end of the day though, the bridge that connects us to God is not the law but Jesus Christ. If your obedience to the Law does not stem from your faith in Christ then you are not a follower of Christ but a follower of the Law. That is the only reason why I placed more emphasis on your faith in Jesus Christ.
I only said that Christ died for no purpose if we put our trust in the Law to make us righteous because Christ came to free us from all lawlessness, like you said. I was just confused on your argument saying that I said that Paul's words are above Jesus' words. I believe that your argument is completely flawed. I did not cite any other source than the Bible. I want to make sure you understand that NONE of books in the Bible contradict one another nor is one above another. The Bible is the literal word of God and if you disagree with me on that than I will go the lengths to question what religion you are. If you ONLY believe Jesus' words or even place greater value on words over another solely because of the speaker who says them, then you are saying that you only believe portions of the Bible and that's just absurd. Every word in the Bible is written through a conviction from God meaning that it is from God. Therefore, Paul's words are not any LESS important than Jesus' words.
The main question I was trying to answer is this: "Is a Christian really subject to the OT law?". I said that you are NOT subject to the OT law but your faith in Christ should COMPEL you to obey them. Notice how I put faith in Christ before you obey the law. Think about it like this, your faith will get you to heaven but you obedience to the law will decide your reward in heaven. Logically, you cannot have your reward in heaven if you don't get to heaven. In conclusion, obedience to the law without faith, is meaningless.
Faith > Law.
So just give up and throw in the towel and follow the law.
bugkiller
I didn't speak against following the law. I just find it of higher value to base your obedience to the law through your faith in Jesus Christ rather than be concerned about being overwhelmed trying to follow every single law.
The Bible does not make any distinction between moral and non-moral laws and nowhere does it describe someone's disobedience to any of God's commands as being moral. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of His laws are inherently moral laws and it is always immoral to disobey any of His commands.[/QUOTE)
Sorry got my reply inserted in you quote somehow.
Yes all Gods commands are good, therefore it is wrong to disobey any of them. But there are laws that were only for the Nation of Israel to separate them and make them a light unto the nations, these were ceremonial laws that were not based on morality, but to make Israel a perculiar people, easily recognised by their dress, diet and observances.
The ceremonial laws were shadows of Christ to come, now that the bridegroom has come the bride no longer needs them.
It is not morally wrong for a Christian to chose a different day of rest, the 7th day was not for all nations, its not wrong to eat pork either but God did not change anything about its make up, He merely lifted the prohibition, therefore it never was a moral law either.
Mate, i wouldnt begin to tell a Jew what is right or wrong for them, apart from needing Jesus, and i don`t expect a Jew, messianic or not, telling me what i must obey based on out dated and expired laws.
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