Is a Christian really subject to the OT Law?

[Buzz_B]

Heb 7-10 covers it and disproves your idea.

bugkiller

Explain how?

I acknowledged that we are to fulfill it spiritually and that this is not like it was done under the Old Covenant. Beyond necessary changes to ceremonial laws, like the offering of sacrifices, it seems the law always was supposed to also be fulfilled spiritually. Romans 7:14

 

[Arsenios]

That was a reply to Ron Gurley.

I did kind of jump into the middle of another's conversation there -

If you are offended by what I said, I apologize for having offended you.

Offense was nowhere on my horizons, and I love your humility...

But I share in Jewish blood and I was not speaking to insult that blood or anyone else.

May it ever be so!

The reply is no more off topic than the post it was given in reply to.

I can get a little wild when I reply to a post...

I thought that was permissible then and had no idea the 'Thought Police' would get excited.

Well, there is such a thing as a de-railment of a thread which amounts to a hi-jacking... Usually, if that happens, the derailment will become the subject of a new thread, respecting the original poster's intent in creating the thread... The Mod's here are very good at keeping things smooth and respectful...

I was simply offering the OP the option on my part to remove the off-topic question if he or she did not want it in his or her thread...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I was contemplating just a short while ago whether the setting for Romans 7:1 ties back to Romans 6:3 and that Paul is just telling them that, as Christ died, Christ is no longer bound to that Old Law and so if they are baptized into Christ and his death, then they should understand that neither are they bound to that Old Law.

You are on the right track... Bring in Marriage and you will have it. As long as both spouses live, they are bound together under the Law... And if one dies, the other is free to re-marry... This is why Baptism is so crucial for one's entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, Which is Christ, even the Body of Christ... Because in Baptism we are baptized into Christ's Death Who overcame the world... [We don't get to just pick and choose which features of Christ we prefer to be baptized into, mind you!] And because of this death, one is then in that very Baptism reborn from above in purity to the Bridegroom, Christ... And the Annointing that follows Baptism (Chrismation) then Seals the Holy Spirit within you as a permanent feature of the ontology of your soul, and your rebirth into Christ is complete...

And you are still a baby in Christ... But a baby in Newness of Spirit... In the Ancient Church, Catechesis normally took 3 years of preparation, and the Newly Illumined [Baptized] remained sealed in the Church in prayer and fasting for a week so as to protect the newborn inChrist from the child-hating ravens in the world... There is a wonderful brightness surrounding those just baptized... And the job of their discipling from that point to the end of their lives is to KEEP that purity of heart that they received upon their emergence from the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration - To their last breath...

This, of course, accounts for the Martyrs, for they were martyred who were already dead to their flesh...

Because surely you realize that it was only Jerusalem that was wed to God and the rest of Israel being treated as God's children being shaped and molded in her womb? Compare Isaiah 50:1

Children of the Free Woman... Worshipping in the Spirit and Truth...

Further, in support of that premise, notice that Romans 7:4 does not say that the law killed us but that, "ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ.."

The Law cannot save, because Salvation is Marriage to God, and it is ONLY God who even HAS God to give in Marriage...

I would surmise that in Romans 7:9 what Paul means is that he had no consciousness of being dead and thus lived as if he were alive. But then the law imposed the consciousness of sin's having caused his death:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.." Romans 7:7

It can be taken a couple of ways, and I should bet that some of them are true... We [OT Jews] are born without the Law, but under it via parents... Who teach their kids...

Accepting that the Law by promoting that consciousness of sin's having caused his death, Paul would understand that because he was actually dead, God could not have any real association with him. Thus he would realize he was free to accept the baptism into Christ's death, and thus the , "ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ.." Dead to sin that sin not be master over him any longer: "God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?" Romans 6:2

"But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life." Romans 6:22

Hey! That works!

You should not have much more trouble with Romans...
It is the Epistle of Weaning, so to speak!
We err to take it as a theology handbook...
It is a pastoral Epistle addressing specific issues...

Thank you, Arsenios, for your comment moving me to think more about that.

Much appreciated!

I must say it is nice to not get slapped around for showing it!

May God's Grace continue to direct your Way...

Arsenios

 

[Ken Rank]

Short answer, serve each other in Love = No Law.

So we are lawless? Aren't we warned in the "NT" about being lawless?

 

[black.hawk]

I John 4

11 Dear friends, if this is how God loved us, then we should love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in union with us, and his love is made perfect in us.

13 We are sure that we live in union with God and that he lives in union with us, because he has given us his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and tell others that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If we declare that Jesus is the Son of God, we live in union with God and God lives in union with us. 16 And we ourselves know and believe the love which God has for us.

God is love, and those who live in love live in union with God and God lives in union with them. 17 Love is made perfect in us in order that we may have courage on the Judgment Day; and we will have it because our life in this world is the same as Christ's. 18 There is no fear in love; perfect love drives out all fear. So then, love has not been made perfect in anyone who is afraid, because fear has to do with punishment.

19 We love because God first loved us. 20 If we say we love God, but hate others, we are liars. For we cannot love God, whom we have not seen, if we do not love others, whom we have seen. 21 The command that Christ has given us is this: whoever loves God must love others also.

See I Cor 13

Gal 5

13 As for you, my friends, you were called to be free. But do not let this freedom become an excuse for letting your physical desires control you. Instead, let love make you serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is summed up in one commandment: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” 15 But if you act like wild animals, hurting and harming each other, then watch out, or you will completely destroy one another.

The Spirit and Human Nature

16 What I say is this: let the Spirit direct your lives, and you will not satisfy the desires of the human nature. 17 For what our human nature wants is opposed to what the Spirit wants, and what the Spirit wants is opposed to what our human nature wants. These two are enemies, and this means that you cannot do what you want to do. 18 If the Spirit leads you, then you are not subject to the Law.

19 What human nature does is quite plain. It shows itself in immoral, filthy, and indecent actions; 20 in worship of idols and witchcraft. People become enemies and they fight; they become jealous, angry, and ambitious. They separate into parties and groups; 21 they are envious, get drunk, have orgies, and do other things like these. I warn you now as I have before: those who do these things will not possess the Kingdom of God.

22 But the Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 humility, and self-control. There is no law against such things as these. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have put to death their human nature with all its passions and desires. 25 The Spirit has given us life; he must also control our lives. 26 We must not be proud or irritate one another or be jealous of one another.

Short answer, serve each other in Love = No Law.

Exodus 20

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.


These rules are still valid ones, regardless of the new covenant of Jesus Christ.

God never intended that the new covenant should abolish every rule in the OT.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Response to Post#90...the necessity of works for salvation??

...Q1: we are repeating the same mistakes which those under the Old Covenant made and

Q2: in jeopardy of losing God's grace...

A1: It is inevitable that Mankind will continue to sin against God, OT - NT, Old Covenant - New Covenant....to fall short of the spiritual perfection of God.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 3:10
as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one;

Conclusion: Man is a sinner in need of a Savior because he cannot keep the Mosaic Law and work his way to heaven.

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

A2:. OSAS! / Eternal Security of the true Believer's salvation!

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

God is not an Indian Giver! GRACE/LOVE/MERCY....spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF
...provisions for salvation ...
ALL unearned / unmerited spiritual GIFTS!

God does not UN-DO His gracious provisions and works of salvation.

God CALLS / DRAWS. Man's spirit accepts or rejects.

God gives GRACE ...initial and continuing ....Not the 7 fonts of the RCC! Pax Vobiscum!

John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2.

 

[Ron Gurley]

(Mosaic) Law always was supposed to also be fulfilled spiritually.

It WAS!.

Jesus the Divine Messiah confirmed, (except "REMEMBER Sabbath) clarified, added to, and FULFILLED the OT Mosaic Law, primarily the "Big 10" and "Super 2".

Matthew 5:17 (all NASB)
“Do not think that I came to abolish the (Mosaic) Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Luke 24:44...post-resurrection Jesus to His closest followers
Now He said to them,
“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

 

[Buzz_B]

Response to Post#90...the necessity of works for salvation??

...Q1: we are repeating the same mistakes which those under the Old Covenant made and

Q2: in jeopardy of losing God's grace...

A1: It is inevitable that Mankind will continue to sin against God, OT - NT, Old Covenant - New Covenant....to fall short of the spiritual perfection of God.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 3:10
as it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one;

Conclusion: Man is a sinner in need of a Savior because he cannot keep the Mosaic Law and work his way to heaven.

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

A2:. OSAS! / Eternal Security of the true Believer's salvation!

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

God is not an Indian Giver! GRACE/LOVE/MERCY....spirit-led FAITH / BELIEF
...provisions for salvation ...
ALL unearned / unmerited spiritual GIFTS!

God does not UN-DO His gracious provisions and works of salvation.

God CALLS / DRAWS. Man's spirit accepts or rejects.

God gives GRACE ...initial and continuing ....Not the 7 fonts of the RCC! Pax Vobiscum!

John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2.

Paul disagrees with you. You need to go back and ponder Romans chapter one and chapter two a bit deeper. That is not nearly all of the paces where it can be found clearly that you are wrong, but being as this thread is not on OASIS, those two chapters are good starters.

God is holy and his holiness will not allow what you claim. We must be holy as he is holy, for we cannot be his image if we are not. And if you think he is going to do it all for you, you live in lala land, and cause many who believe you to not take the despicable nature of sin and the importance of holiness seriously enough.

I would not want to be found responsible for causing others to take sin too lightly when standing before Christ in the judgment by reason of having been an unwitting promoter of lawlessness.

 

[Buzz_B]

(Mosaic) Law always was supposed to also be fulfilled spiritually.

It WAS!.

Jesus the Divine Messiah confirmed, (except "REMEMBER Sabbath) clarified, added to, and FULFILLED the OT Mosaic Law, primarily the "Big 10" and "Super 2".

Matthew 5:17 (all NASB)
“Do not think that I came to abolish the (Mosaic) Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Luke 24:44...post-resurrection Jesus to His closest followers
Now He said to them,
“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Then why do you abolish the consequences of breaking God's law with your OSAS teachings?

You are not fulfilling God's law by claiming that God has sanctioned you to sin with impunity. You are nullifying God's law. And we are to also fulfill the law as did Christ. Our walk in him is about our having the knowledge, wisdom, and power to do just that.

Romans 8:
4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ..................
13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. ..............
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Here is one such law of God you nullify with your belief:

Ezekiel 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

 

[Buzz_B]

You are on the right track... Bring in Marriage and you will have it. As long as both spouses live, they are bound together under the Law... And if one dies, the other is free to re-marry... This is why Baptism is so crucial for one's entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, Which is Christ, even the Body of Christ... Because in Baptism we are baptized into Christ's Death Who overcame the world... [We don't get to just pick and choose which features of Christ we prefer to be baptized into, mind you!] And because of this death, one is then in that very Baptism reborn from above in purity to the Bridegroom, Christ... And the Annointing that follows Baptism (Chrismation) then Seals the Holy Spirit within you as a permanent feature of the ontology of your soul, and your rebirth into Christ is complete...

And you are still a baby in Christ... But a baby in Newness of Spirit... In the Ancient Church, Catechesis normally took 3 years of preparation, and the Newly Illumined [Baptized] remained sealed in the Church in prayer and fasting for a week so as to protect the newborn inChrist from the child-hating ravens in the world... There is a wonderful brightness surrounding those just baptized... And the job of their discipling from that point to the end of their lives is to KEEP that purity of heart that they received upon their emergence from the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration - To their last breath...

This, of course, accounts for the Martyrs, for they were martyred who were already dead to their flesh...



Children of the Free Woman... Worshipping in the Spirit and Truth...



The Law cannot save, because Salvation is Marriage to God, and it is ONLY God who even HAS God to give in Marriage...



It can be taken a couple of ways, and I should bet that some of them are true... We [OT Jews] are born without the Law, but under it via parents... Who teach their kids...







You should not have much more trouble with Romans...
It is the Epistle of Weaning, so to speak!
We err to take it as a theology handbook...
It is a pastoral Epistle addressing specific issues...



I must say it is nice to not get slapped around for showing it!

May God's Grace continue to direct your Way...

Arsenios

That opens up much opportunity to revisit my previous ideas to check their validity as I comb back through Paul's writings. It is like a caterpillar entering the cocoon wherein much change takes place until the day the butterfly flies free.

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Not that we are free to sin without consequences, but that we have help given us in and through Christ which when we use it, it helps us to be conquerors even as Christ conquered. And if we choose to waste it, that is on us. It is not God's fault.

 

[black.hawk]

Paul disagrees with you. You need to go back and ponder Romans chapter one and chapter two a bit deeper. That is not nearly all of the paces where it can be found clearly that you are wrong, but being as this thread is not on OASIS, those two chapters are good starters.

God is holy and his holiness will not allow what you claim. We must be holy as he is holy, for we cannot be his image if we are not. And if you think he is going to do it all for you, you live in lala land, and cause many who believe you to not take the despicable nature of sin and the importance of holiness seriously enough.

I would not want to be found responsible for causing others to take sin too lightly when standing before Christ in the judgment by reason of having been an unwitting promoter of lawlessness.

To whom is this addressed?

 

[Buzz_B]

To whom is this addressed?

You must have Ron Gurley on block. It is a reply to him.

You can only see to whom it was posted when you are not signed in. That is a sort of glitch this site has with its bolcker method.

Both 128 and 129 are replies to Ron Gurley.

I rarely put anyone on block for that reason. If I do not wish to be bothered with them I just don't reply to them.

 

[Ron Gurley]

You are not fulfilling God's law by claiming that God has sanctioned you to sin with impunity.

RESPONSE to Post#129

1. I do NOT so claim. You improperly JUDGE!

2. The Salvation EVENT, which God will NOT reverse, FREES me to NOT sin...REDEMPTION...one of the many benefits of salvation unto the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS.

The true believing Christ-Follower is NOT spiritually JUDGED for his POSITION in Christ.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten (not made) Son of God.

John 5:24...“Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal (spiritual) life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of "death" (separation from God) into life.(PAST COMPLETED AORIST TENSE!!)

Only the WORKS of a BELIEVER, in or out of the will of God, are judged by Jesus on His "bema seat" awards platform.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV) + 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV) + Romans 14:10b,12 (1-23)

10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "judgment (bema = awards platform) seat of Christ",
that each one may receive what is due him for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY, whether good or bad....

I HAVE BEEN saved from the PRISON of sin / death....SEE: Ephesians 8 for example..."born again from above"...redeemed

I AM BEING saved from the POWER of sin / death....SEE: 1 John 4-5..."overcome the world" ....run the race...work out salvation...stand firm...the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS!

I WILL BE saved from the PRESENCE of sin / death...SEE: New Heavens/Earth/Jerusalem in Revelations

Jesus taught and practiced FORGIVENESS OF SINS of believers...NOT loss of spiritual POSITION
Mark 11: 24-25
See ALSO: Luke 6: 36-38...Jesus: Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Jesus will never "..cast out " a true"sheep" ...believer.
John 6:35-40

Paul taught that: (NOTHING) ..."will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord...."
Romans 8: 35-39

John 10...Jesus the God-Man and God the Father holds you in His HAND...NOTHING can "snatch" you out!

The TRI-UNE God by Grace through Faith has saved the Souls and Spirits of all true believers:
1. shown uttermost LOVE...John 13:1
2. keeps us to Himself.....John 28:30
3. presents us faultless in heaven...Jude 24
4. makes intercession to maintain our saved relationship...Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 2:1
5. places us into the Body of Christ / indwelt by God the Holy Spirit...1 Cor. 12:13
6. seals us until the day of redemption...Ephesians 4:30

NO ONE has EVER undone these spiritual works!

If GOOD WORKS do not follow salvation, then perhaps there was no true salvation in the first place!
James 2:22 says FAITH + WORKS go hand-in-hand!

Romans 7:23
but I see a different law in the members of my body,
waging war against the law of my mind
and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. (the old man / "sin nature" survives!)

REDEEMED and freed from the prison of sin!...Jesus paid the price and set us free to follow God's will!

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse FOR us...

Job 33:28
‘He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit, And my life shall see the light.’

1 Peter 1
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.
20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory,
so that your faith and hope are in God.


Theological Results of a Christan-follower's Salvation: completed Work of Jesus on the Cross cannot be UNDONE!

1 Peter 1:8-9
Ephesians 2:6-10
Romans 10:10

Substitution = "for" = in place of + for the benefit of + on behalf of
Matthew 20:28
Galatians 3:13
1 Peter 3:18
2 Corinthians 5:21

Atonement = "at-one-ment"= RECONCILIATION with God through the required SACRIFICE for SIN ...once ...FOR... all
Hebrews 7:27
Hebrews 9:26-28
Hebrews 10:10-14
1 Peter 3:18

Redemption - purchased out of the market place / pawn shop of sin and freed by paying a price
1 Corinthians 1:30
Hebrews 9:12
1 Timothy 2:5-6
Titus 2:11-14

Reconciliation - to change from the status of alienation by sin to the status of family
2 Corinthians 5:19-21
Hebrews 2:17

Adoption - receiving new status by being taken from a family not your own into a new family... from outsider to full privileges of "son"
Isaiah 62:2
Romans 8:12-17
Galatians 4:1-5

Propitiation - appease or satisfy a God angry with sin and be reconciled with Him
Mark 3:29
Mark 14:21
Romans 1:18
Ephesians 5:6
Romans 3:21-26.
1 John 2:1-2

Justification - "just-if -i -had never sinned"~ = forgiveness of sins?...legal term : not guilty, acquitted, no sentence, no condemnation, law has been perfectly been satisfied, fine paid.
Luke 24:47
Acts 10:43
1 John 2:12
Acts 13:39
Romans 3:21-26
Romans 5:1,9
Romans 10:10
1 Corinthians 6:11
Galatians 2:16-17
Galatians 3:11,24
Titus 3:7
James 2:21-26.
1 John 1:8-10

Santified / Sanctification: - "to be set apart" : the slow PROCESS of becoming "saintly"/"holy"/ Christ-like, more complete and mature
John 17:19
Acts 26:18
1 Corinthians 1:2
1 Corinthians 6:11
Hebrews 10:10-14

1. POSITION changes at salvation ...from outsider to full "son" of God
Hebrews 10:10-14
1 Corinthians 6:11

2. PRACTICE changes, and there is spiritual growth toward maturity as followers imitate the model of perfection
1 Peter 1:6-7, 13-16

3. PRESENCE and POWER of sin in the believer's life disappears totally in time eternal
Revelations: 21-22

for atonement... Hebrew 3725...kippur...at-one-ment (only in 8 OT books?)

Exodus 29:36
“Each day you shall offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement, and you shall purify the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to consecrate it.

the atonement. ...Greek 2643....katallage...adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour

Romans 5:11 (KJV)
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom we have now received the ATONEMENT.

Romans 5:11 (NASB)
And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
through whom we have now received the RECONCILIATION.

for "substitution"

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died FOR our sins according to the Scriptures,

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the just (Jesus) FOR the unjust (mankind),
so that He might bring us to God, (reconciliation/salvation)
having been put to death in the flesh,(unjust bloody death)
but made alive in the spirit;(resurrection, appearances, ascension)

 

[Arsenios]

That opens up much opportunity to revisit my previous ideas to check their validity as I comb back through Paul's writings. It is like a caterpillar entering the cocoon wherein much change takes place until the day the butterfly flies free.

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Not that we are free to sin without consequences, but that we have help given us in and through Christ which when we use it, it helps us to be conquerors even as Christ conquered. And if we choose to waste it, that is on us. It is not God's fault.

I had to chuckle!

Now look at what sin is:
All that is not of God is sin...
The Law helped to make all observable actions to be of God...
This is the Typos, [or type...]
Christians are to make all unobservable actions to be of God...
This is its fulfillment - [A heart that is broken and humbled god will not despise...]
The latter is the Telos [end or goal] of the former...

The acquisition of the Holy Spirit is the purpose of Discipleship in Christ...
We are given a new Ousia [being or essence] in Baptism...
Our walk in the Way is to become saturated with the Holy Spirit...
OT Saints were saturated with the Holy Spirit...
They had this saturation without the new Ousia which we have...
Our very Being, emerging from the Baptismal Waters is a New Creature...
Not just man, but now con-joined essentially with God - Now a member of the Living...
God will judge the Living and the dead...
Many of the dead will be far ahead of many of the living at that Judgement...
Where more is given, more is expected, lest we squander the Gift...
And thereby become fit only for burning...
And in this acquisition we approach perfecting, maturity in Christ...
Until we become as Paul: To live: Christ... To die: Gain... That is how the Greek reads...

It is a joy to see you sinking your love into this...

You are on the verge of understanding the Joy of martyrdom...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You are not fulfilling God's law by claiming that God has sanctioned you to sin with impunity.

RESPONSE to Post#129

1. I do NOT so claim. You improperly JUDGE!

2. The Salvation EVENT, which God will NOT reverse, FREES me to NOT sin...REDEMPTION...one of the many benefits of salvation unto the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS.

The true believing Christ-Follower is NOT spiritually JUDGED for his POSITION in Christ.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten (not made) Son of God.

John 5:24...“Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal (spiritual) life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of "death" (separation from God) into life.(PAST COMPLETED AORIST TENSE!!)

Only the WORKS of a BELIEVER, in or out of the will of God, are judged by Jesus on His "bema seat" awards platform.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV)...Judgment of the BELIEVER'S WORKS

2 Corinthians 5: 1-15 (NIV) + 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NIV) + Romans 14:10b,12 (1-23)

10 For we (BELIEVERS) must all appear before the "judgment (bema = awards platform) seat of Christ",
that each one may receive what is due him for the things done (WORKS) while in the BODY, whether good or bad....

I HAVE BEEN saved from the PRISON of sin / death....SEE: Ephesians 8 for example..."born again from above"...redeemed

I AM BEING saved from the POWER of sin / death....SEE: 1 John 4-5..."overcome the world" ....run the race...work out salvation...stand firm...the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS!

I WILL BE saved from the PRESENCE of sin / death...SEE: New Heavens/Earth/Jerusalem in Revelations

Jesus taught and practiced FORGIVENESS OF SINS of believers...NOT loss of spiritual POSITION
Mark 11: 24-25
See ALSO: Luke 6: 36-38...Jesus: Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Jesus will never "..cast out " a true"sheep" ...believer.
John 6:35-40

Paul taught that: (NOTHING) ..."will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord...."
Romans 8: 35-39

John 10...Jesus the God-Man and God the Father holds you in His HAND...NOTHING can "snatch" you out!

The TRI-UNE God by Grace through Faith has saved the Souls and Spirits of all true believers:
1. shown uttermost LOVE...John 13:1
2. keeps us to Himself.....John 28:30
3. presents us faultless in heaven...Jude 24
4. makes intercession to maintain our saved relationship...Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 2:1
5. places us into the Body of Christ / indwelt by God the Holy Spirit...1 Cor. 12:13
6. seals us until the day of redemption...Ephesians 4:30

NO ONE has EVER undone these spiritual works!

If GOOD WORKS do not follow salvation, then perhaps there was no true salvation in the first place!
James 2:22 says FAITH + WORKS go hand-in-hand!

Romans 7:23
but I see a different law in the members of my body,
waging war against the law of my mind
and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. (the old man / "sin nature" survives!)

REDEEMED and freed from the prison of sin!...Jesus paid the price and set us free to follow God's will!

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse FOR us...

Job 33:28
‘He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit, And my life shall see the light.’

1 Peter 1
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.
20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory,
so that your faith and hope are in God.


Theological Results of a Christan-follower's Salvation: completed Work of Jesus on the Cross cannot be UNDONE!

1 Peter 1:8-9
Ephesians 2:6-10
Romans 10:10

Substitution = "for" = in place of + for the benefit of + on behalf of
Matthew 20:28
Galatians 3:13
1 Peter 3:18
2 Corinthians 5:21

Atonement = "at-one-ment"= RECONCILIATION with God through the required SACRIFICE for SIN ...once ...FOR... all
Hebrews 7:27
Hebrews 9:26-28
Hebrews 10:10-14
1 Peter 3:18

Redemption - purchased out of the market place / pawn shop of sin and freed by paying a price
1 Corinthians 1:30
Hebrews 9:12
1 Timothy 2:5-6
Titus 2:11-14

Reconciliation - to change from the status of alienation by sin to the status of family
2 Corinthians 5:19-21
Hebrews 2:17

Adoption - receiving new status by being taken from a family not your own into a new family... from outsider to full privileges of "son"
Isaiah 62:2
Romans 8:12-17
Galatians 4:1-5

Propitiation - appease or satisfy a God angry with sin and be reconciled with Him
Mark 3:29
Mark 14:21
Romans 1:18
Ephesians 5:6
Romans 3:21-26.
1 John 2:1-2

Justification - "just-if -i -had never sinned"~ = forgiveness of sins?...legal term : not guilty, acquitted, no sentence, no condemnation, law has been perfectly been satisfied, fine paid.
Luke 24:47
Acts 10:43
1 John 2:12
Acts 13:39
Romans 3:21-26
Romans 5:1,9
Romans 10:10
1 Corinthians 6:11
Galatians 2:16-17
Galatians 3:11,24
Titus 3:7
James 2:21-26.
1 John 1:8-10

Santified / Sanctification: - "to be set apart" : the slow PROCESS of becoming "saintly"/"holy"/ Christ-like, more complete and mature
John 17:19
Acts 26:18
1 Corinthians 1:2
1 Corinthians 6:11
Hebrews 10:10-14

1. POSITION changes at salvation ...from outsider to full "son" of God
Hebrews 10:10-14
1 Corinthians 6:11

2. PRACTICE changes, and there is spiritual growth toward maturity as followers imitate the model of perfection
1 Peter 1:6-7, 13-16

3. PRESENCE and POWER of sin in the believer's life disappears totally in time eternal
Revelations: 21-22

for atonement... Hebrew 3725...kippur...at-one-ment (only in 8 OT books?)

Exodus 29:36
“Each day you shall offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement, and you shall purify the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to consecrate it.

the atonement. ...Greek 2643....katallage...adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour

Romans 5:11 (KJV)
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom we have now received the ATONEMENT.

Romans 5:11 (NASB)
And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
through whom we have now received the RECONCILIATION.

for "substitution"

1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died FOR our sins according to the Scriptures,

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the just (Jesus) FOR the unjust (mankind),
so that He might bring us to God, (reconciliation/salvation)
having been put to death in the flesh,(unjust bloody death)
but made alive in the spirit;(resurrection, appearances, ascension)

Wow! What a post!
I wish I had your memory!
I can barely remember John 3:16
Or was it 15?


Arsenios

 

[Buzz_B]

I had to chuckle!

Now look at what sin is:
All that is not of God is sin...
The Law helped to make all observable actions to be of God...
This is the Typos, [or type...]
Christians are to make all unobservable actions to be of God...
This is its fulfillment - [A heart that is broken and humbled god will not despise...]
The latter is the Telos [end or goal] of the former...

The acquisition of the Holy Spirit is the purpose of Discipleship in Christ...
We are given a new Ousia [being or essence] in Baptism...
Our walk in the Way is to become saturated with the Holy Spirit...
OT Saints were saturated with the Holy Spirit...
They had this saturation without the new Ousia which we have...
Our very Being, emerging from the Baptismal Waters is a New Creature...
Not just man, but now con-joined essentially with God - Now a member of the Living...
God will judge the Living and the dead...
Many of the dead will be far ahead of many of the living at that Judgement...
Where more is given, more is expected, lest we squander the Gift...
And thereby become fit only for burning...
And in this acquisition we approach perfecting, maturity in Christ...
Until we become as Paul: To live: Christ... To die: Gain... That is how the Greek reads...

It is a joy to see you sinking your love into this...

You are on the verge of understanding the Joy of martyrdom...

Arsenios

Wow! What a beautiful way to understand it.

Making all of our observable and unobservable actions to be of God! Our very being!

I see what you have said crystal clear. And what a gloriously beautiful goal that is!

And not just the goal, but the privilege to work through God's appreciation of our faith in being willing to help us grow ever more able to accomplish it!

 

[Buzz_B]

Wow! What a post!
I wish I had your memory!
I can barely remember John 3:16
Or was it 15?


Arsenios

LOL. Yes, might sentiments exactly.

I know only too well that I can talk myself into believing most anything if I use enough of my own words.

But in doing that I become ripe to be used as that flood spewed from out of the serpent's mouth in Revelation 12:15. So long as I think it all makes sense I can just flood away the objections raised of anyone else, drowning what they have said by so much of my own water that theirs becomes quite lost; lost to me and lost to many others trying to make sense of it, and sometimes even causing the one speaking truth to lose track of his thoughts which were of the holy spirit.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[Arsenios]

Wow! What a beautiful way to understand it.

Making all of our observable and unobservable actions to be of God! Our very being!

The Law only enforces what is observable...

I see what you have said crystal clear. And what a gloriously beautiful goal that is!

It is discipled in the Apostolic Churches... Successfully... Since 33AD...

And not just the goal, but the privilege to work through God's appreciation of our faith in being willing to help us grow ever more able to accomplish it!

It is actually the establishment, in an earnest in this life, of our ontological relationship with reality and with one another in the Life of the Age to come... It is more than just a big deal... It is THE Deal...

You may be ready for "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church" by Lossky... It gives us the place of man in Christ in the Cosmos as originally intended, and the way God has dealt with the Fall of Adam in that establishment... Left me like Peter, John and James on Mt. Tabor - Laid flat I say! That Book was what made the whole of Christianity finally make sense to me... I was an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] moment of shock and awe... God seems to have largish sleeves full of such moments...

Arsenios

 

[bugkiller]

Explain how?

I acknowledged that we are to fulfill it spiritually and that this is not like it was done under the Old Covenant. Beyond necessary changes to ceremonial laws, like the offering of sacrifices, it seems the law always was supposed to also be fulfilled spiritually. Romans 7:14

It does not matter how the law is fulfilled. What does matter is one is saved by faith in Jesus alone as all that is required. JN 3:1:6, 5:24 and Jn 10.

bugkiller

 

[Buzz_B]

It does not matter how the law is fulfilled. What does matter is one is saved by faith in Jesus alone as all that is required. JN 3:1:6, 5:24 and Jn 10.

bugkiller

Describe for me, this, "faith alone."

Also, show me in the scriptures where it specifically says that "faith alone" saves us.

And explain why you disagree with James who said that "faith alone" or "faith only" does not by itself save us?

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."