Is a Bill of Rights the best way to actually protect human rights? I don't think so!

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,676
18,555
Orlando, Florida
✟1,261,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
Agreed!


Or democratic political and social policy critique, for that matter.


Surprisingly, I agree with you, because as a Christian I accept that the separation of church and state actually comes from a proper understanding of the book of Romans.

Yes, we call it the 'Politicization of the judiciary." If I'm hearing you correctly - you think it turns the whole process into a circus? I agree. I couldn't tell you who our Supreme Court judges were because, off the top of my head, they're not deciding things that are that important to me right now.

You aren't familiar with the courts because most likely they are not heavily politicized in Australia. In the US, many people hang on their every word to make sure they are judging the right way... because the whole thing is very political and politicians are expected to appoint the "right" judges, or face the consequences. For instance, President George Bush was criticized by conservatives for appointing Justice David Souter, who turned out to be far more socially progressive than they cared for. This can lead to even more political litmus tests and further politicization of the judiciary.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,676
18,555
Orlando, Florida
✟1,261,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
There's a guy in China I read about not long ago. China instituted a public propaganda campaign to get the people proud of China's culture and heritage. This included a revival of traditional Chinese martial arts.

So this guy in China said, basically, that this was a lie...that traditional Chinese martial arts were useless in a fight. He's a modern MMA practitioner. The government was angry at this, traditional martial artists were angry and started challenging him to fights. He's only average in skill and athleticism by his own standards....and he considers himself at past his prime in his 40s....but he's easily beaten every king fu master that's challenged him. He's done it publicly to show that he spoke the truth.

For this, he's lost his job, his ability to teach and train at the gym he's been at for the past 10 years, his right to travel, work, and many other things. China has been making it almost impossible for him to just get by. He's destitute and he has a family. All traces of him have been erased and denied by his gym. This is just for speaking the truth....not even criticizing the government.

In all honesty, he's going to be lucky if he isn't disappeared and thrown in a dungeon somewhere never to see the light of day or be heard from again.

I'm not saying that having his rights written down would stop all that. It does however, provide a rather clear marker for when government has overstepped its bounds and is abusing the public it's supposed to serve.

Without it, I think you'd be surprised what people will allow as long as it happens slowly enough.

Bruce Lee did something similar, BTW, and it won him few friends among traditional martial artists in the US in the Chinese community.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,579
11,397
✟437,412.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Bruce Lee did something similar, BTW, and it won him few friends among traditional martial artists in the US in the Chinese community.

This guy isn't Bruce Lee...and we're talking about the last 10 years or so. A running theme in several Lee movies was Chinese national pride.

This guy just pointed out what nearly everyone in martial arts has known for about a decade now. There's no magical mystical fighting powers that are hidden in kung fu (and a lot of traditional disciplines) and real fighting is just a mix of a few striking and grappling disciplines. It's not really even a controversial stance at this point.

It's because it's contrary to what the government says that the government has literally ruined this guy's life. There's no recourse for him. No redress against government excesses. No escape.

It's this level of government control that the people of Hong Kong have been fighting against for over a year now.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,676
18,555
Orlando, Florida
✟1,261,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
This guy isn't Bruce Lee...and we're talking about the last 10 years or so. A running theme in several Lee movies was Chinese national pride.

This guy just pointed out what nearly everyone in martial arts has known for about a decade now. There's no magical mystical fighting powers that are hidden in kung fu (and a lot of traditional disciplines) and real fighting is just a mix of a few striking and grappling disciplines. It's not really even a controversial stance at this point.

It's because it's contrary to what the government says that the government has literally ruined this guy's life. There's no recourse for him. No redress against government excesses. No escape.

It's this level of government control that the people of Hong Kong have been fighting against for over a year now.

I could think of other reasons to promote Chinese martial arts. I'm not familiar enough with the case. Traditional martial arts have certain less tangible benefits that you don't necessarily get with just learning to efficiently pummel somebody like in Krav Maga or your Shoot Wrestling type gym. In traditional Chinese culture, martial arts are like 1 part Boy Scouts, 1 part Freemasonry, and 1 part aerobics sprinkled with a bit of Taoist or Buddhist philosophy.
 
Upvote 0

George95

CF Tech Master
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Community Manager
Site Supporter
Oct 31, 2012
17,339
1,728
29
✟1,397,821.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
7UvJN6G.png

MOD HAT ON

This thread has been moved from American Politics to International Politics.

MOD HAT OFF
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,579
11,397
✟437,412.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I could think of other reasons to promote Chinese martial arts. I'm not familiar enough with the case. Traditional martial arts have certain less tangible benefits that you don't necessarily get with just learning to efficiently pummel somebody like in Krav Maga or your Shoot Wrestling type gym. In traditional Chinese culture, martial arts are like 1 part Boy Scouts, 1 part Freemasonry, and 1 part aerobics sprinkled with a bit of Taoist or Buddhist philosophy.

I've seen the parts of the propaganda video. It depicts things like tai chi masters fighting off multiple opponents at once.

It's pure nonsense.
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,312
1,738
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,921.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
There's a guy in China ... Without it, I think you'd be surprised what people will allow as long as it happens slowly enough.

Yes, but we're not discussing the difference between one-party states and democracies, between tyrannies and functioning democracies where the rule of law is respected!

We're discussing why one group of people get to determine the public policy for all future generations for certain specific things - and everyone is bound to the whims of their age - and it's interpreted not by the people, but by a bunch of old judges.

Our Prime Minister is subject to the laws of our land.
We have a Constitution - it just doesn't have a bill of rights.
Our Constitution is protected by our courts.
Our military protects it all.
We have various separation of powers, various anti-corruption bodies, the idea of human rights being promoted by various private agencies and watchdogs and all backed up by a free press.

But because our human rights policies can be changed with data from the latest statistics and psychology and sociology and just what's generally 'on the nose' in Australian public life, we get different outcomes. We don't have some over-arching dominating 'right to privacy' at the expense of common sense anti-DUI policies like RBT. RBT is a great idea. It deters drink driving. It is part of our law and now our culture. It is not cool to drink and drive in Australia, and that's party because it has been so drummed into us by our laws. You drink and drive, you could get caught by some cops just randomly finding you, diverting half the traffic into feeder lanes that slowly get you to count to 10 in front of a device. You get caught, you get fined, or if higher blood alcohol, could lose your licence, or if higher than that could pretty much end up in jail! But mention RBT to an American, and they puff up their chest and say "My privacy!" I puff up my chest back at them and say "My LIFE! What about my right to life? To live in a society with statistically less DUI deaths?"

It's the same with guns, and the politics and policies of Covid and so many other things.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,579
11,397
✟437,412.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Yes, but we're not discussing the difference between one-party states and democracies, between tyrannies and functioning democracies where the rule of law is respected!.

You sound like you think these things happen by accident or circumstance.

We live in a 2 party system now and frankly, one party is doing it's very best to eliminate all other dissenting opinions. Personally, I'm glad there's a right to freedom of speech and press that limits their ability to do so...no matter how much they hate it.
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,312
1,738
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,921.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
You sound like you think these things happen by accident or circumstance.

We live in a 2 party system now and frankly, one party is doing it's very best to eliminate all other dissenting opinions. Personally, I'm glad there's a right to freedom of speech and press that limits their ability to do so...no matter how much they hate it.
Not accident, but a whole lot of very specific historical circumstance.
Personally, I'm also glad Australia has freedom of speech and a free press, and when the Federal Police raided an ABC journalist's office a while back it generated all kinds of concern across Australia and the courts and it was eventually found to be illegal.

Illegal, even though it didn't breach any bill of rights.
How did that happen?

My concern is that Australia, right now, is walking the fine balance between individual rights and community rights, between safety and freedom, between privacy and surveillance, between individual responsibility and a nanny state. I kind of like the balance in some areas, not so much in others.

HEALTHCARE a good your bill of rights forgot
EG: I like having a 'nanny state' pay all essential medical bills. To me this is a fundamental human right that America's Bill of Rights somehow overlooked. If you're an Australian citizen, you're insured! We have a public health system that should do all essential life saving health procedures on citizens. My son had cancer years ago, and we practically lived in the public hospital for months - for free. (Apart from fast food I bought myself now and then and incidentals like parking.) But the expensive chemotherapy treatments and scans and diagnostics and hospital beds? FREE! And this is without us being a communist state - last time I looked a few years ago, we only paid 1% more tax per unit GDP than Americans did. (However I'm guessing we pay less per capita military - you guys love being the world's main super-power, Brenton Woods and all that.)

To me government subsidised healthcare for the poor is a fundamental human right. It somehow omitted that. It was a blind spot of the era the paper was drawn up in, and so encoded the things it did want to talk about for all time, while leaving those other things out.

How did America end up with a Bill of Rights but no universal healthcare? It's such an obvious public good to me? I've heard stories of single mothers on welfare losing their sight because they don't have health insurance in American healthcare. Now, she's not that productive to society. She's a single mum, with young children, on welfare. But now she's also a burden to her family and community more because she can't afford a $15,000 operation? She can't raise her children as effectively, so in her family, the next generation of American citizens suffer. I don't understand.

GUNS a bad that your bill of rights enshrined
How did you end up with a Bill of Rights that gives Boogaloo's the right to wear Hawaiian shirts and sub-machine guns to a protest?

The Port Arthur massacre of 28–29 April 1996 was a mass shooting in which 35 people were killed and 23 wounded in Port Arthur, Tasmania...
...
Australians reacted to the event with widespread shock and horror, and the political effects were significant and long-lasting... ... Under federal government co-ordination, all states and territories of Australia restricted the legal ownership and use of self-loading rifles, self-loading shotguns, and tightened controls on their legal use by recreational shooters. The government initiated a mandatory "buy-back" scheme with the owners paid according to a table of valuations. Some 643,000 firearms were handed in at a cost of $350 million which was funded by a temporary increase in the Medicare levy which raised $500 million.[39] Media, activists, politicians and some family members of victims, notably Walter Mikac (who lost his wife and two children), spoke out in favour of the changes. Port Arthur massacre (Australia) - Wikipedia
Australia has 0.01 gun deaths per 100,000 people, and America has 15 times more at 0.15.

So your nation had a war of independence and a local militia united to throw out the British. So you thought guns in the community were a good idea. But how does a well organised local militia translate into a Boogaloo teenager standing out on the street with a military grade rifle in a time of peace? I'll tell you - it's encoded into your fabric as a nation by the "Right to bear arms". But should that even BE THERE?

The right to keep and bear arms (often referred to as the right to bear arms) is a right for people to possess weapons (arms) for their own defense.[1] Only a few countries support the idea that their people have a right to keep and bear arms and protect it on a statutory level, and even fewer protect such a right on a constitutional level.
Right to keep and bear arms - Wikipedia
So when you say "You sound like you think these things happen by accident or circumstance", I guess I agree! You threw out the British and in the heat of the moment, in a culture influenced by this historical peculiarity of how the USA was born, and crafted a Bill of Rights in the biases of that culture. It has forever moved gun policy from parliament into the hands of a conservative Supreme Court - unwilling to make waves and maybe even unable to! It has forever moved gun law out of the democratic process and back a few layers where the people can barely ever touch it. And your nation is left with some of the higher deaths per capita from firearms in the world. You're rated 20th, in a time of peace!

Since 1990, the number of gun deaths has declined, the report said. But nearly every year since then, firearm deaths outside conflict zones outnumbered deaths that occurred as a result of war.

“We spend a lot of time thinking about conflict, and probably, we should be spending as much or more time thinking about how to reduce firearm-related homicide and suicide,” Murray said.
There’s a new global ranking of gun deaths. Here’s where the U.S. stands
Summary: when a Bill of Rights can ignore universal healthcare for its citizens and enshrine nasty ideas like everyone having a "right to bear arms" (I mean, why oh why?) - we have 2 key examples where the ideas and values of one era in history can be enshrined forever in a way that very soon becomes outdated and dangerous and binding on a population.

You like a Bill of Rights? I prefer those areas be subject to democratic processes instead, thanks.
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,579
11,397
✟437,412.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Not accident, but a whole lot of very specific historical circumstance.

Well that's where you and I disagree. I don't see any point in history where there aren't either well intentioned or corrupt people who believe that things would just be better if they had more power.

It's more a matter of human nature than circumstances.

Methinks that at least if the people of Hong Kong had guns, they could have retained the rest of their rights a little bit longer.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,312
1,738
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,921.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I don't see any point in history where there aren't either well intentioned or corrupt people who believe that things would just be better if they had more power.
I never denied human nature was like this - where have I suggested it and we can discuss it?

Methinks that at least if the people of Hong Kong had guns, they could have retained the rest of their rights a little bit longer.
Today's governments have access to drones that can kill you from kilometers above and are piloted from a thousand km's away. They also have tanks and artillery guns that can fire over the horizon. They are working on battleship railguns that instead of firing million dollar cruise missiles can choose to also fire much cheaper $24,000 railgun 'missiles' 7 times the speed of sound 150km inland with pinpoint accuracy. One round fragments and a whole house is pulverised. That means a battleship could pull up in Sydney Harbour and fire over the Blue Mountains to inland towns.

If the people of Hong Kong had used guns on the streets - there would have been a massacre.

The vast majority of western democracies don't have a right to bear arms - I guess that's why the government has done terrible things like give us universal healthcare and infringed on my right to privacy with Random Breath Testing? Or done terrible things to us and really locked us down in this pandemic to save us from a virus? Yeah, it's just awful living without a Bill of Rights. :doh:

But in the meantime, America can 'enjoy' 15 times the gun deaths per capita, or over 35,000 gun deaths per year, 350,000 per decade, and 3.5 million per century! Enjoy! :oldthumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
37,579
11,397
✟437,412.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Today's governments have access to drones that can kill you from kilometers above and are piloted from a thousand km's away.

That requires the will to use them...on your own population no less.

I'm not going to argue that wasn't a possibility, of course it was.

However, it's risky to use weapons on people who you intend to rule, it can cause further uprisings. If the population can only protest? They can be ignored forever.
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,312
1,738
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,921.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
That requires the will to use them...on your own population no less.

I'm not going to argue that wasn't a possibility, of course it was.

However, it's risky to use weapons on people who you intend to rule, it can cause further uprisings. If the population can only protest? They can be ignored forever.
Not when they vote you out.
Remember we're talking about western democracies?
You seem to be raising the fallacy that extra guns will keep you safe from your own government.
That's not the normal perspective in most western democracies - because excess guns = excess deaths.
America is losing about 3.5 million people per century at the moment - that's the Nazi holocaust in 2 centuries. Australia doesn't have the right to bear arms, and so gun deaths per capita is 15 times less - or it would take us 3000 years to equal the holocaust.

200 years vs 3000 years.

I thought your 'right to bear arms' was trying to avoid mass death by Nazi, but you don't seem to worry about mass death by citizen?
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,676
18,555
Orlando, Florida
✟1,261,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
The purpose of the Bill of Rights is the protect the rights of American citizens, not "human rights", which are nothing more than an Enlightenment superstition...

And the mask comes off, finally...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,312
1,738
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,921.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The purpose of the Bill of Rights is the protect the rights of American citizens, not "human rights", which are nothing more than an Enlightenment superstition...
Um, where do you think the Enlightenment got the idea?
And why do you think separating citizen "rights" out from the democratic process and encoding them once-for-all-time is a good idea? What about my right to life - there's drunk drivers out there! Protect me government! Do something! Oh, you can't? Because a bunch of old judge geezers are bound to interpret some old parchment that couldn't imagine modern traffic systems? Because for some reason a 'right to privacy' means I can't blow into a bag once every 6 months for statistically safer roads? Oh well - I guess I can't vote on that now either, can I? The old geezers get all the power on this one? Yeah, great democracy - and great attempt at protecting my more important 'right to life'.
 
Upvote 0

SoldierOfTheKing

Christian Spenglerian
Jan 6, 2006
9,230
3,041
Kenmore, WA
✟278,566.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Um, where do you think the Enlightenment got the idea?

From the Renaissance. John Locke's theory of natural rights is basically the Divine Right of Kings turned on its head.

And why do you think separating citizen "rights" out from the democratic process and encoding them once-for-all-time is a good idea? What about my right to life - there's drunk drivers out there! Protect me government! Do something! Oh, you can't? Because a bunch of old judge geezers are bound to interpret some old parchment that couldn't imagine modern traffic systems? Because for some reason a 'right to privacy' means I can't blow into a bag once every 6 months for statistically safer roads? Oh well - I guess I can't vote on that now either, can I? The old geezers get all the power on this one? Yeah, great democracy - and great attempt at protecting my more important 'right to life'.

That's not how the Bill of Rights works. The Bill of Rights are amendments to the Constitution, amendments that were added by the process allowed for in the Constitution itself. Amending them is difficult, but not impossible.

Ultimately, do remember that democracy, like other forms of government, is a means of protecting its citizens - not an end in itself.
 
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
8,312
1,738
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟142,921.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It's a curious form of "protection" that ignores humans' concrete needs in favor of abstractions.
If I understand you, I think I agree.

As I said in my opening post, we can all agree on a right to privacy! Pass the champagne. But take that out on the road for a test drive, and smart people disagree. Who gets to decide? Us voting on the best ethical debates from parliament, informed by the latest science and technology and philosophy? Or a parchment that encoded the biases of a few centuries ago and now interpreted by old lawyers bound to interpret the parchment, but not categorically say some new technology or development makes it irrelevant?

What's more important - my right to privacy, or my right to life? I say invade my privacy! Let the cops wave me over randomly! Let them do so without "due suspicion". Test me randomly once every 6 months - but give me safer roads to drive on. Give me roads that are a FULL THIRD SAFER! Please! Just by 'forcing' me to pull over and test my breath!

It works so well, they've studied how to make it work better across other states in Australia! This stuff is being studied by psychologists and sociologists and marketing types and anthropologists. From 2009:-

Australian road fatalities are currently at their lowest level for many years. It is argued that one reason for this decline is the success of random breath testing (RBT) and random stopping programs in some parts of Australia. There is evidence that RBT in New South Wales has been a remarkably successful law, with a 36% decline in alcohol-related fatalities which has been sustained for 5 years. Survey data support the conclusion that RBT in NSW has had a powerful and sustained deterrent impact especially on heavy drinkers, although there is evidence that deterrence is an unstable process. However, RBT and random stopping have not been as successful in other parts of Australia. The key ingredients for success appear to be continued, highly visible police enforcement, with about one motorist in three being tested each year, together with extensive publicity, particularly in the early stages. The mechanisms whereby RBT may change drink-driving behaviour are complex. They include simple deterrence, reductions in pressures to drink in group situations, and alterations in drinking patterns (including the adoption of practices such as counting drinks rather than relying on feelings, leading to less drink-driving but probably also a reduction in total alcohol consumption). The NSW experience suggests that a successful deterrent may eventually bring about changes in attitudes to drinking and driving (“moral deterrence”.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...eath_testing_in_Australia_A_complex_deterrent

There it is. There's the data. It works, and you can reduce alcohol related fatalities a third by testing a third of drivers every year. The program would raise so many funds in fines it would probably pay for itself - or a good chunk of itself. How do we know it works? Statistical analysis, social psychology, anthropology, surveys, everything.

Or we could just have a crusty old parchment speaking in vague fluffy language about a 'right to privacy' that crusty old judges - not social policy experts operating on the latest science, statistical analysis, social psychology, etc - just rule it 'unconstitutional'. Why? Because an old parchment said so, so there!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SoldierOfTheKing

Christian Spenglerian
Jan 6, 2006
9,230
3,041
Kenmore, WA
✟278,566.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
It's a curious form of "protection" that ignores humans' concrete needs in favor of abstractions.

What are democracy and human rights but abstractions? They're certainly not concrete things...
 
Upvote 0