Irrisistable Grace?

[bradfordl]

it really isn't a question of me wanting to portray it in those terms , we have debated this before and your arguement is sinners are to do nothing , for as soon as you agree that sinners are to do something in order to be saved , you open the door for interaction between God and man .

The interaction between man and God is initiated and energized by God alone. Never said there was no interaction, only that it is monergistic in salvation.

Is this a change of God's plan, or the declaration of an ordained event within it?

no , whatever gave you that idea ?

No to which, bro, or no to both?

I said:

You are equating God's love for all creatures with His special love for His elect.

Then you say:

Clearly Calvin holds that God does love all mankind , which you deny , and that God's love for the elect is a special love , which logically you also reject , for to you there is no special love , only love , and only for the elect .

You slander me sir! Good thing I love you like I do. I can overlook it.

I haven't said (as you imply) that God has no form of love for the reprobate. I have said that I make the same distinction in types of love that Calvin makes. Love as in a general care for the well-being of creation vs. love that saves. Sounds like special love to me.

I am ? , where ?


where does cygnus say God has the same , identical love for all sinners ?

no , you are falsifying my beliefs bro.

Far be it from me to falsely represent your beliefs, my brother, and if I have, I plead your forgiveness. But if you propose that there is an equal and genuine offer of salvation to both elect and reprobate, is that not an equivalent love?

Blessings,

Brad

 

[UMP]

does not in any way determine the freedom of God's choice to love , or God's choice to "take away" His love .

How can God (who is love itself, the very definition of "love") not love what He once loved?
Sorry, I just can't put my mind around that, especially given the fact that hell is not just a subtraction of God's love, it is PUNISHMENT of unimaginable pain and agony.
For God to now punish with an eternal flame what He once "loved" I cannot grasp.

 

[cygnusx1]

How can God (who is love itself, the very definition of "love") not love what He once loved?
Sorry, I just can't put my mind around that, especially given the fact that hell is not just a subtraction of God's love, it is PUNISHMENT of unimaginable pain and agony.
For God to now punish with an eternal flame what He once "loved" I cannot grasp.

Does it really come down to "grasping" it bro , or believing it ?.........


King Saul


2Sam.7

[1]
Now when the king dwelt in his house, and the LORD had given him rest from all his enemies round about,

[2] the king said to Nathan the prophet, "See now, I dwell in a house of cedar, but the ark of God dwells in a tent."
[3] And Nathan said to the king, "Go, do all that is in your heart; for the LORD is with you."
[4]
But that same night the word of the LORD came to Nathan,

[5] "Go and tell my servant David, `Thus says the LORD: Would you build me a house to dwell in?
[6] I have not dwelt in a house since the day I brought up the people of Israel from Egypt to this day, but I have been moving about in a tent for my dwelling.
[7] In all places where I have moved with all the people of Israel, did I speak a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd my people Israel, saying, "Why have you not built me a house of cedar?"'
[8] Now therefore thus you shall say to my servant David, `Thus says the LORD of hosts, I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, that you should be prince over my people Israel;
[9] and I have been with you wherever you went, and have cut off all your enemies from before you; and I will make for you a great name, like the name of the great ones of the earth.
[10] And I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and violent men shall afflict them no more, as formerly,
[11] from the time that I appointed judges over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. Moreover the LORD declares to you that the LORD will make you a house.
[12] When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
[13] He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
[14] I will be his father, and he shall be my son. When he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men;
[15] but I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.
[16] And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever.'"
[17] In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.
[18]
Then King David went in and sat before the LORD, and said, "Who am I, O Lord GOD, and what is my house, that thou hast brought me thus far?

[19] And yet this was a small thing in thy eyes, O Lord GOD; thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come, and hast shown me future generations, O Lord GOD!
[20] And what more can David say to thee? For thou knowest thy servant, O Lord GOD!
[21] Because of thy promise, and according to thy own heart, thou hast wrought all this greatness, to make thy servant know it.
[22] Therefore thou art great, O LORD God; for there is none like thee, and there is no God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
[23] What other nation on earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his people, making himself a name, and doing for them great and terrible things, by driving out before his people a nation and its gods?
[24] And thou didst establish for thyself thy people Israel to be thy people for ever; and thou, O LORD, didst become their God.
[25] And now, O LORD God, confirm for ever the word which thou hast spoken concerning thy servant and concerning his house, and do as thou hast spoken;
[26] and thy name will be magnified for ever, saying, `The LORD of hosts is God over Israel,' and the house of thy servant David will be established before thee.
[27] For thou, O LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, hast made this revelation to thy servant, saying, `I will build you a house'; therefore thy servant has found courage to pray this prayer to thee.
[28] And now, O Lord GOD, thou art God, and thy words are true, and thou hast promised this good thing to thy servant;
[29] now therefore may it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee; for thou, O Lord GOD, hast spoken, and with thy blessing shall the house of thy servant be blessed for ever."

 

[bradfordl]

[15] but I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.

Is this a change in God's plan, or a declaration of an event He ordained?

Beautiful portion of scripture.

Blessings,

Brad

 

[cygnusx1]

The interaction between man and God is initiated and energized by God alone.

that has never been denied ......

Never said there was no interaction, only that it is monergistic in salvation.

This is not an accurate statement bro , it is true God is monergistic in Regeneration but not salvation , Mikey has covered this so well I will ask he shows you his work on it , it is very good .

http://www.christianforums.com/t4294765&page=2

No to which, bro, or no to both?

both!

the text is not dealing with a plan but with God's heart , His feelings about how HE "came to hate" sinners..... and how He will "love them no more" .

I haven't said (as you imply) that God has no form of love for the reprobate.

If that is true I apologise , If you recognise God loves even those whom He reprobates then there is no reason to disagree ...... I have constantly maintained , against others , that

"It may also please the Lord,to allow His overtures of grace to have several ends in view,not all of which result in salvation.Truly the Lord is Good to ALL." Cygnus

I have said that I make the same distinction in types of love that Calvin makes. Love as in a general care for the well-being of creation vs. love that saves. Sounds like special love to me.

fair enough , I thought you had argued God only loved the elect!

Far be it from me to falsely represent your beliefs, my brother, and if I have, I plead your forgiveness. But if you propose that there is an equal and genuine offer of salvation to both elect and reprobate, is that not an equivalent love?

Blessings,

Brad

let us be clear , no mere offer , invitation , Gospel call , welcome or pleading with sinners ever saved anyone .. only that which is re-created can receive the truth.

My arguement has never been any denial of equivalent love per se , but that God can and does Love liberally , manifesting His love over elect and reprobate ; only High Calvinists and Hypers deny God has any love for any other than the elect , for they view God's love as ETERNAL , IMMUTABLE and UNCHANGEABLE and certainly NOT varied!

greetings Cyg

 

[cygnusx1]

Is this a change in God's plan, or a declaration of an event He ordained?

Beautiful portion of scripture.

Blessings,

Brad

neither , it is simply a commentary on what has been . God removed His tender mercies from King Saul and God made a promise to David that He would not do likewise.

It has nothing to do with plans per se , it has everything to do depth of commitment and depth of love.

 

[UMP]

[15] but I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.

Eternally? God's love taken away and turned into an ETERNAL hatred and punishment against Saul?
You sure?

 

[cygnusx1]

Eternally? God's love taken away and turned into an ETERNAL hatred and punishment against Saul?
You sure?

well , let me ask you something bro ,
do you maintain sinners are in no worse , and no better a situation on earth than they are in hell ?

 

[UMP]

well , let me ask you something bro ,
do you maintain sinners are in no worse , and no better a situation on earth than they are in hell ?

Sorry, that's not an answer Remember, we're talking about this:

Originally Posted by cygnusx1
[15] but I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you.

Eternally? God's love taken away and turned into an ETERNAL hatred and punishment against Saul?
You sure?Today 04:31 AM

...as it relates to this:

Originally Posted by cygnusx1

does not in any way determine the freedom of God's choice to love , or God's choice to "take away" His love .
How can God (who is love itself, the very definition of "love") not love what He once loved?
Sorry, I just can't put my mind around that, especially given the fact that hell is not just a subtraction of God's love, it is PUNISHMENT of unimaginable pain and agony.
For God to now punish with an eternal flame what He once "loved" I cannot grasp.

 

[cygnusx1]

Sorry, that's not an answer

then , the answer is Yes I am sure.

You have been given not one but two scriptures thus far and you are still unsure ..... shall I look for more , or is your mind too troubled UMP ?

 

[UMP]

then , the answer is Yes I am sure.

You have been given not one but two scriptures thus far and you are still unsure ..... shall I look for more , or is your mind too troubled UMP ?

You're sure Saul is in hell bearing the wrath of God, eternally?

 

[cygnusx1]

You're sure Saul is in hell bearing the wrath of God, eternally?

Yes , "the just shall live by faith" !

you know just how he died , by his own hand !

A W PINK wrote ;


2. The case of king Saul. It is affirmed by Arminians that this king of Israel was a regenerate man. In support of this contention they appeal to a number of things recorded about him. First, that the prophet Samuel "took a vial of oil and poured it upon his head and kissed him" (1 Sam. 10:1). Second, because it is said that "God gave him another heart" (v. 9). Third, because we are told "the Spirit of God came upon him and he prophesied" (v. 11). Then it is pointed out that Saul acted in fearful presumption and disobedience (1 Sam. 13:9, 13), thereby displeasing the Lord so that it was announced the kingdom should be taken from him (vv. 13, 14). That because of God’s displeasure "the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him" (16:14). That later, when menaced by the Philistines, he "enquired of the Lord" but "the Lord answered him not" (28:6). Finally, how that he had recourse to a witch and ultimately fell upon the field of battle sorely wounded, and ended his life by taking a sword and falling upon it (31:4), thereby sealing his doom by the unpardonable act of suicide.
In reply thereto we would say: we grant the conclusion that Saul passed out into an eternity of woe, but we do not accept the inference that he was ever a regenerate man. At the outset it must be remembered that the very installation of Saul upon the throne expressed the Lord’s displeasure against Israel, for as He declared to the prophet "I gave thee a king in Mine anger (cf. 1 Sam. 8:5,6) and took him away in My wrath" (Hos. 13:11). Concerning the three things advanced by Arminians to show that Saul was a regenerate man, they are no proofs at all. Samuel’s taking of the vial of oil and kissing him were simply symbolic actions, betokening the official status that had been conferred upon Saul: this is quite clear from the remainder of the verse, where the prophet explains his conduct, "Is it not because the Lord hath anointed thee to be captain over His inheritance?" (10:1) — not because "The Lord delighteth in thee" or because thou art "a man after His own heart." It is not said the Lord gave Saul "a new heart," but "another. "Moreover, the Hebrew word (haphak) is never translated "gave" elsewhere, but in the great majority of instances "turned": it simply means the Lord turned his heart from natural timidity (see 1 Sam. 10:21, 22) to boldness (cf. 1 Sam. 11:1-7; 13:1-4). That the Spirit of God came upon him so that he prophesied is no more than is said of Balaam (Num. 22:38; 24:2) and Caiaphas (John 11:51).

 

[cygnusx1]

In verse 21 (Jude is only one chapter), he writes, "...keep yourselves in the love of God."


such an expression is meaningless if men can never depart from the love of God .

 

[bradfordl]

the unpardonable act of suicide

Off-topic, I know, and I have great respect for Pink, but I thought the unpardonable sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

 

[cygnusx1]

Off-topic, I know, and I have great respect for Pink, but I thought the unpardonable sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

yes , you are quite right , and Pink is following popular Reformed "accepted" doctrine here ......

I have no doubt about the character of King Saul though , he was an unrepentant murderer of God's Priests .

REgarding Pink ,
It is always a dilema when quoting someone when they make a very good point but also make a mistake , the temptation is to edit it , but I think that only leads to even more arguements ... there is only one sin that is unforgivable and it isn't suicide or divorce , I personally believe Samson is in Glory and he ended his own life for God's glory.

 

[bradfordl]

Agreed on the unpardonable. Agreed on Samson, too. Can't say I know about Saul, would have to study further to determine if I can even make a venture, but yes, he was a nasty dude.

Cheers, bro

Brad

 

[cygnusx1]

Agreed on the unpardonable. Agreed on Samson, too. Can't say I know about Saul, would have to study further to determine if I can even make a venture, but yes, he was a nasty dude.

Cheers, bro

Brad

there is no doubt about King Saul , all the elect remain under God's Everlasting love. King Saul didn't.