Irrisistable Grace?

[Roobyroo]

I'm asking the following question under the assumption that any theological system, or "ism", like Calvinism or Arminianism, should be secondary to Scripture, and that the entire counsel of Scripture needs to be in harmony with the "ism" for that "ism" to be fully accepted.

That being said, I'm wondering what I would do with the following verse if I were to fully embrace Calvinism:


Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

This leads me to three observations:
1) God is longing for the salvation of Jerusalem, and that longing does not, or at least is not, coming to pass.

2) The objects of that longing do not receive salvation because of choices they have made.

3) God's will can sometimes be defied.

This verse alone, and probably dozens of others, pose serious problems to the "I" in TULIP, in my opinion.

So if I were to become a died-in-the-wool Calvinist, how would I fit this verse into my favorite "ism"?

 

[BBAS 64]

I'm asking the following question under the assumption that any theological system, or "ism", like Calvinism or Arminianism, should be secondary to Scripture, and that the entire counsel of Scripture needs to be in harmony with the "ism" for that "ism" to be fully accepted.

That being said, I'm wondering what I would do with the following verse if I were to fully embrace Calvinism:


Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

This leads me to three observations:
1) God is longing for the salvation of Jerusalem, and that longing does not, or at least is not, coming to pass....snip

Good Day, Roobyroo

I have sniped your post for the sake of clear disscussion. I will assume for the sake of this thread that this verse has some thing with salvation, a point that certainly begs many questions.

Question on your first observation. Let's find it's basis in the text, shall we

How from the text did you come to this conclusion?

Who/ what is Jerusalem?

Who/ what are her children?

Peace to you,

Bill

 

[bradfordl]

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

How has God's will been defied? Jerusalem was not willing, or tried to resist, Him gathering "her children" together. This does not say that He was not able to gather them, or that He did not gather them, which He has and is, but that Jerusalem was in a heap of trouble for trying to resist Him doing that. So He says:

Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate.

 

[heymikey80]

I'm asking the following question under the assumption that any theological system, or "ism", like Calvinism or Arminianism, should be secondary to Scripture, and that the entire counsel of Scripture needs to be in harmony with the "ism" for that "ism" to be fully accepted.

That being said, I'm wondering what I would do with the following verse if I were to fully embrace Calvinism:


Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

This leads me to three observations:
1) God is longing for the salvation of Jerusalem, and that longing does not, or at least is not, coming to pass.

2) The objects of that longing do not receive salvation because of choices they have made.

3) God's will can sometimes be defied.

This verse alone, and probably dozens of others, pose serious problems to the "I" in TULIP, in my opinion.

So if I were to become a died-in-the-wool Calvinist, how would I fit this verse into my favorite "ism"?

Well, Calvinists hold to the general call, which is made universally to everyone without respect. To think this call is irresistible is not Calvinism -- it's Universalism. Yet there is a call that God inevitably brings to completion in glorification (Rom 8:30). It may well even be resisted for a time. But it isn't successfully resisted (Rom 8:37-38):

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
* * *
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? ...
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:30,35,37-39
​

The concept of the Irresistible Call lies in how the desire of God is defied. Certainly God has appointed men "that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for 'In him we live and move and have our being'" (Ac 17:27-28). The command of God is that everyone repent, turning to Christ (Acts 17:30); yet not everyone repents -- some will enter judgment and be condemned (Ac 17:31). And yet -- God is near to everyone. It's really His -- um, His call -- who to bring to Spiritual birth.

There's a clear point to this. God's desire and command is that everyone be saved. On this is a very inter-personal summons. It is a summons to all, defiant as well as submissive, to change. Calvinists call this the general call, or summons. It's made in earnest. It's made by the Supreme Authority. It's made in justice. And the defiance of all must be accounted, for all have defied this summons in one way or another.

But there is another kind of summons. It's a summons made to the spiritual heart. How can such a summons be made to a heart that's dead? (Ep 2:1-6) It really can't. It can't be done, inter-personally. How much wailing and pleas brings back a person from death? None. Nothing personal can bring him back. Within a few minutes, I have to do something physical. Or the person is lost to me, physically. Spiritually, the issue is even deeper. This spiritual summons has to resurrect my spiritual heart; or I remain dead. And I've never been alive, spiritually.

We know God has the power to bring back anyone. His Creational commands brought the world into being, just by speaking. He does the same in the Spiritual world. We know God doesn't check with dead people before bringing them back, either (doesn't that even sound a little odd?). Paul, the resistant chief persecutor of the Christians, was brought to life by God on the Damascus Road. Was that Paul's preference? Was that Paul's desire? We see this again and again -- God opening our eyes to the truth, to see Him.

So Jesus on the Road to Jerusalem, sees the inter-personal call being rejected by much of Jerusalem. And He's despaired at this defiance of truth, this massive inconsistency on the part of people who say they're spiritually alive -- and yet are dead. And with that Jesus makes an horrific case against them.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Mt 23:27-36
​

It's also a cautionary warning for anyone who claims to be spiritual. "Let he who stands take heed lest he fall." Because we're utterly dependent on the Spirit of God to bring us to birth (Jn 3), and to live the spiritual life (1 Cor 2:11-16)

But to Calvinists, this is the general call. It's a cautionary call to us, because we must reconsider our own spiritual lives. It's important. But it's not God's call to rise from spiritual death.

 

[bradfordl]

God's desire and command is that everyone be saved.

I know this has been an historical bone of contention, and that there are a thousand different explanations for and against, but Mikey, doesn't that statement make absolutely no sense? If it were His desire, what possibly has prevented His performing it?

Instead of long quotes and complicated explanations, could someone please just plainly answer that one question? Just the name of the thing that has prevented Him carrying out His desire.

 

[FreeInChrist2]

Hi Roobyroo, seems like you have been here before? Anyway if any of my Calvinist brothers need to correct my understanding and short memory, please do so.

BBAS 64 post; How from the text did you come to this conclusion?

Thus, if I may add to this question, if you are pre-supposing from the position of mans free-will and selecting verse (Matt 23:37) to stand alone as an argument to support mans ability to choose or reject God’s sovereignty in salvation (also as BBAS 64 pointed out) then I can certainly see how you would desire for it to support that position, which would certainly then support the idea of contradiction / biblical error -verses- the many scriptures that would prove Gods sovereignty in salvation, thus so much for God’s sovereignty in providing his children clear direction and understanding of His way and truth. And if that were the case then the bible really can’t be trusted for any doctrinal, religious or sanctifying truth of any type or kind of salvation, for who want’s a god that can’t keep His own way / story straight. And to add to that, If this seems to present contradiction, then just throw the bible away and be spiritual however you want, for in the end it will just all be vanity anyway.

So back to my addition to BBAS 64’s question; Are you referring to the text as the one verse standing alone or are you taking into consideration the whole content of chapter 23.

BBAS 64 post; Who/ what is Jerusalem?

In its proper context, beginning at Matt23:1 & 2, Jesus speaking to the multitudes, and with the disciples whom He had chosen, and speaking of the scribes and Pharisees whom were then the religious / churches leaders / teachers.

BBAS 64 post; Who/ what are her children?

Thus Jerusalem…not a country or chosen people, includes religious and church leaders far beyond Jerusalem as well as including all their followers / believers – you no…religious folk / church people. Note; “How often I wanted to gather your children together” (not His children). Compare to John 8:37 to 47.

Roobyroo post; “

as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

Here we see Jesus comparing Himself to the hen that gathers her chicks, showing that if you were my children you would be under my protection, chastisement and salvation, you wouldn’t have a choice…I’m the mother hen, my wings are irresistible, you would be willing to come under my wings as chicks seeking shelter and warmth…”But, you are not willing”, you can do it your own way, you certainly don’t need me. Go ahead choose your own way and stay out in the cold and freeze.

So in its context, Jesus just completing a long detailed rebuke and condemnation of all their prophet bashing, ceremonial, traditional, sacrificial, evangelistic, law breaking legalisms of worship and works righteous nesses, show their continued and original state (as at birth…dead) of spiritual depravity denying the grace of Gods saving grace in salvation and trusting the only One whom could save them, to them the One to come, but now is…Himself by grace alone. For this is what He came to declare…salvation accomplished in Christ alone…not a choice. Of which Jerusalem (the man centered church and much like todays) has not receive the gift of salvation by faith alone as you would see in the ending 2 verses 38 & 39, “See! Your house is left desolate; for I say to you, you shall see me no more till you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!”

What!!! This Carpenters Son will save us? Mark 6:3

So to say it plainly, until we all come to unity in the faith…Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! It is only He who can bring this about and according to His will, purpose and pleasure. And its not that He will bring this about…He already did from all His completed works in all eternity. Remember…God sits in the heavens bringing to pass all that He has determined (past tense)… not like He’s making it up everyday to suit our desires as we continue to thwart His plans or thinking we are doing the best we can conforming to His will by our own choices… He…so hoping He will or might have a kingdom in the end. The kingdom is already here!

So I pray the helper, the Holy Spirit, will help you embrace His Irresistible Grace and Christian...Calvinist - ISM for His own glory and the sake of His Son! The fact you are asking the right questions, might prove you are a part of it…unless, of course you use your free-will to stay with Jerusalem. In that case, how free will you be?

FreeInChrist2

PS. And by all means, ask more questions.

PSS.

Bradford post;

God's desire and command is that everyone be saved.

Who is the everyone? John 6:37, “All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Matt 7:21-23, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Why does Jesus not know this person? The Father never gave him to Jesus? Thus if Jesus knew him, he doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven and eveyone of them will be saved. Now go and struggle with assurance of your salvation...now there's a blessing.

 

[GodsElect]

I'm asking the following question under the assumption that any theological system, or "ism", like Calvinism or Arminianism, should be secondary to Scripture, and that the entire counsel of Scripture needs to be in harmony with the "ism" for that "ism" to be fully accepted.

That being said, I'm wondering what I would do with the following verse if I were to fully embrace Calvinism:


Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

This leads me to three observations:
1) God is longing for the salvation of Jerusalem, and that longing does not, or at least is not, coming to pass.

2) The objects of that longing do not receive salvation because of choices they have made.

3) God's will can sometimes be defied.

This verse alone, and probably dozens of others, pose serious problems to the "I" in TULIP, in my opinion.

So if I were to become a died-in-the-wool Calvinist, how would I fit this verse into my favorite "ism"?

This passage comes in the midst of the proclamation of judgment upon the leaders of the Jews. Matthew 23 contains the strongest denunciations of the scribes and Pharisees in all of the gospels.

Who, then, is “Jerusalem”? It is assumed by Arminian writers that “Jerusalem” represents individual Jews who are, therefore, capable of resisting the work and will of Christ. But upon what warrant do we leap from “Jerusalem” to “individual Jews”? The context would not lead us to conclude that this is to be taken in a universal sense. Jesus is condemning the Jewish leaders, and it is to them that he refers here. This is clearly seen in that:

1. It is to the leaders that God sent prophets.
2. It was the Jewish leaders who killed the prophets and those sent to them.
3. Jesus speaks of “your children,” differentiating those to whom he is speaking from those that the Lord desired to gather together.
4. The context refers to the Jewish leaders, scribes, and Pharisees.

A vitally important point to make here is that the ones the Lord desired to gather are not the ones who “were not willing”! Jesus speaks to the leaders about their children that they, the leaders, would not allow him to gather. Jesus was not seeking to gather the leaders, but their children. This one consideration alone renders the passage useless for the Arminian seeking to establish freewillism. The “children” of the leaders would be Jews who were hindered by the Jewish leaders from hearing Christ. The “you would not” then is referring to the same men indicated by the context: The Jewish leaders who “were unwilling” to allow those under their authority to hear the proclamation of the Christ. This verse, then, is speaking to the same issues raised earlier in Matthew 23:13.​

 

[orthedoxy]

This passage comes in the midst of the proclamation of judgment upon the leaders of the Jews. Matthew 23 contains the strongest denunciations of the scribes and Pharisees in all of the gospels.

Who, then, is “Jerusalem”? It is assumed by Arminian writers that “Jerusalem” represents individual Jews who are, therefore, capable of resisting the work and will of Christ. But upon what warrant do we leap from “Jerusalem” to “individual Jews”? The context would not lead us to conclude that this is to be taken in a universal sense. Jesus is condemning the Jewish leaders, and it is to them that he refers here. This is clearly seen in that:

1. It is to the leaders that God sent prophets.
2. It was the Jewish leaders who killed the prophets and those sent to them.
3. Jesus speaks of “your children,” differentiating those to whom he is speaking from those that the Lord desired to gather together.
4. The context refers to the Jewish leaders, scribes, and Pharisees.

A vitally important point to make here is that the ones the Lord desired to gather are not the ones who “were not willing”! Jesus speaks to the leaders about their children that they, the leaders, would not allow him to gather. Jesus was not seeking to gather the leaders, but their children. This one consideration alone renders the passage useless for the Arminian seeking to establish freewillism. The “children” of the leaders would be Jews who were hindered by the Jewish leaders from hearing Christ. The “you would not” then is referring to the same men indicated by the context: The Jewish leaders who “were unwilling” to allow those under their authority to hear the proclamation of the Christ. This verse, then, is speaking to the same issues raised earlier in Matthew 23:13.​

This still doesn't answer if Jesus wanted to do something in Matt 23 why couldn't he do it?
If God could irresistably change peoples heart why didn't he change the Pharesies heart so he could accomplish what he wants?

 

[GodsElect]

This still doesn't answer if Jesus wanted to do something in Matt 23 why couldn't he do it?

Why dont you ask Jesus? Maybe because God kept those people BLIND or hardend their hearts for a purpose. God has complete authority to do so. He's God. He can do what He pleases in His creation and in the hearts of man. Why dont you question God about it?

If God could irresistably change peoples heart why didn't he change the Pharesies heart so he could accomplish what he wants?

Quick answer: Because He hardened their hearts. Because HE IS GOD. To accomplish His purposes by His sovereign will! I pray you will understand.

Once again, why don't you go and question the will of God in His creation? Do ALL of you neighbors believe in God? Do all repent for sin? Why do some of your friends, relatives, co-workers, and neighbors NOT believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ? If God is truly sovereign and softens or hardens the hearts of man, then should we question why they dont? But rather, pray for their lost souls with tears in our eyes that God would CHANGE THIER HEARTS and draw them near to Himself in saving faith. And that they find that great JOY and salvation that was not "just a possibility" "If we so choose to believe on our behalf, by what I HAVE TO DO to be saved." but, that they find great JOY and salvation that was MADE CERTAIN and lies within the EFFECTUAL death and COMPLETE atonement for sin His Son Jesus Christ bared for us, lawbreaking vile sinners.


As I mentioned, I noticed that you said..."If God could irresistably change peoples heart..."

Do you not believe that God can change the hearts of any man of His creation, to whom He wills? That He ALONE can cast out thier heart of stone and give a heart of flesh? I certainly do, He is God and does what He pleases. These verses immediatly come to mind in for this matter...

Exodus 10:1 Now the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,

Romans 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.


I find it very interesting that, here in Joshua 11:20 and in MANY other places in the bible, that the LORD first hardened the hearts of those who attacked Israel, that "He might UTTERLY DESTROY THEM"....Wow! God created men to harden hearts and destroy them?? Now you go and question God about that! Ask Him why He did it. I would love to hear His reply to you.

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?


And God softens the hearts of men in His creation and IRRESISTIBLY CALLS to their hearts, decreeing nothing more than a positive response.... Did Israel have anything to do with being "A chosen people" but to acknowlege with a positive response and to bear true fruits of the Spirit ???....

John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit , and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Ezekiel 11:19Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,


Acts 16:14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us.
She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.


And in Jesus' words concerning that calling to His sheep that WILL NOT be resisted in John 10.....

John 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

His sheep WILL hear his voice and heed His call! That's an irresistible PROMISE!


And all true and genuine belief in God, is a free gift of Grace, from God ALONE! By and through and to God ALONE!...

Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
2 Timothy 1:9"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began"

Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD of hosts has purposed, And who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, And who will turn it back?”

Who will turn back the outstretched hand of GOD?! Who can resist His will? No Man!!!

So when God calls to His people, Who can resist the call of their creator? Right now this very moment, Could you resist? If you could, then go ahead and do it!..... That's right, YOU CAN'T RESIST this Holy Calling by Grace can you? That is IRRESISTIBLE GRACE!

 

[FreeInChrist2]

This still doesn't answer if Jesus wanted to do something in Matt 23 why couldn't he do it?
If God could irresistably change peoples heart why didn't he change the Pharesies heart so he could accomplish what he wants?

Sorry to say this question doesn’t deserve the attention GodElect posted for your learning. The question isn’t IF Jesus wanted to, but should be WHY wouldn’t He. Thus GodElect’s post should be sufficient, but I will add…

Before creation God chose a people to save. He’s not going to change His mind. Thus Jesus didn’t come to change the hearts of those whom He hadn’t chosen from the foundation of the world.

Sure he could have changed the Pharisees hearts irresistibly, but He didn’t and wasn’t and won’t. Thus he accomplished exactly what had been ordained from the foundation of the world.

Those whom are His, will not nor can not resist His grace, thus irresistibly draws all men whom He chose. The rest He simply leaves as they are born…dead in trespasses and sin.

So where does this leave you?


Need more scripture proof? Or will it matter?

 

[orthedoxy]

Does Jesus want the non-elect to come to him?

 

[bradfordl]

Does Jesus want the non-elect to come to him?

Well... let's see...

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Looks like the answer is no.

 

[GodsElect]

well put bradford!

 

[heymikey80]

I know this has been an historical bone of contention, and that there are a thousand different explanations for and against, but Mikey, doesn't that statement make absolutely no sense? If it were His desire, what possibly has prevented His performing it?

What's prevented His performing it? It is not His sole desire, nor His primary desire, nor His greatest desire, nor His best desire.

I guess I'd have to say in addition here, we like to think of God as "that saving Being", that He's kind of in the business of saving people. That's because this need is uppermost and of such obsessive importance in out minds. But that's not God's sole reason for being. And thinking that 's so, promotes human soteriology above all else in theology, and makes us question why His salvation can't be better, more expansive, or more thorough. Why aren't all saved? Why isn't everyone impacted by the Holy Spirit in repentant purity? Why are we still sinful creatures?

I think it's because of the distinctly ecclesial, communical responses God is also establishing among us. Now of course, this is not agreed-on by every Reformed believer. But every Reformed believer does have to content with God's preference that "the wicked turn to Him and live", that He wanted to gather a Jerusalem that would not be gathered, and that He will judge people on the basis of His rightful desire that all should rightly turn to Him in repentance.

It's quite clear that God does things He is not otherwise desirous of doing -- because of greater desires. Jesus' prayer in the Garden reflects this: "if there is any other way, let this cup pass from me". Was it Jesus' desire to undergo capital punishment as a criminal? Sorry, it wasn't. It was Jesus' desire for something greater that pressed on Jesus' will to endure (not desire) the Cross for us.

Instead of long quotes and complicated explanations, could someone please just plainly answer that one question? Just the name of the thing that has prevented Him carrying out His desire.

There are a number of possible responses. His Justice. His deserved Glory. His Righteousness. His sharing of Himself with us.

 

[heymikey80]

Does Jesus want the non-elect to come to him?

Is there a desire that they come to Jesus? Yes. But it's not carried out. bradfordl has pointed out that it's not carried out; but the existence of the desire is also present in Scripture:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" Mt 23:37

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? Ez 18:23

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live. Ez 18:30-32

These have to be tempered with a real cross-cutting desire though, as bradfordl has pointed out. It exists elsewhere, too.

And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. Mt 13:11-12

 

[bradfordl]

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" Mt 23:37

Jerusalem was in trouble for her resisting His gathering the children of that city which were His own, although she never was able to prevent it, and she suffered the destruction due that resistence. This scripture does not prove any un fulfilled desire in God.

What's prevented His performing it? It is not His sole desire, nor His primary desire, nor His greatest desire, nor His best desire.

The rest of what you say presents God as a conflicted individual who plays peek-a-boo with Himself over primary desires and others of less import. That's preposterous.

 

[orthedoxy]

God wanted to do something but couldn't because people were not willing. You can call this what you want but I call it ressistable grace.

 

[FreeInChrist2]

Your right Orthodoxy, Go ahead resist Him.

 

[GodsElect]

Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD of hosts has purposed, And who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, And who will turn it back?”


Yes, and go ahead and TRY to turn back the hand of GOD!

 

[cygnusx1]

Does Jesus want the non-elect to come to him?

absolutely , yes , yes , YES!

The Good news is for all mankind , none is excluded from the outward call , God commands all to repent , not just a favoured few , God invites all to believe on Christ for salvation not just a chosen few .
All men are in need of eternal life , all men are in need of freedom from sin , suffering and death.

The preacher should know before he opens his mouth that God indeed desires all men saved through faith , for should he preach God doesn't , he cuts the Gospel message in shreds , and denies God desires many saved who are ironically commanded to repent and trust on Christ FOR SALVATION..... that position is a contradiction ; God desires men repent but He doesn't desire that they are forgiven!

Some ministers attempt to get around this by saying that they as humans can desire all men saved even though the God they serve is against their desire! That is not a very strong place to be , and can only lead to double mindedness imo.

the job of an ambassador is to say exactly what his ruler requires , nothing more , and nothing less.That includes the Biblical practice of beseeching (pleading) with men.

“Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead,
Be ye reconciled to God.
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 2Corinthians 5:20-21