Irreconcilable Differences

[Macrina]

Please, if you're going to lecture me about how I'm not part of the true church, just skip this thread; I'm hurting too much right now to want to play defense against that.


My denomination (like many others) is having a really rough time right now. We have very vocal opinions pulling in opposite directions. Although I don't think this is the biggest issue we face, the watershed issue seems to be sexuality and ordination standards. But it's not that particular issue I want to talk about.

It's what's going on with my church (denomination). I was in an administrative meeting today with people from various churches discussing how to deal with congregations which are splitting off from us. There are ecclesiastical issues and property issues and a whole mess of stuff. It's exceedingly difficult and incredibly painful.

All across the denomination, property disputes are headed into the secular courts. It just makes me sick that we can't deal with this as brothers and sisters; we have to take it to the institutions of the world to arbitrate.

Are the differences really irreconcilable? What can we do to stay together? If we absolutely can't stay together, then what is the most appropriate way to part company like Paul and Barnabas did? Can we do this in a way that doesn't tear apart the faith of our members and destroy our witness to our neighbors?

I guess I don't have a particular question here... I just wanted to share how painful this is for me and open the thread for any comments you all might have.

Thanks.

 

[BereanTodd]

I'm glad that some churches are standing against the slow slide into heresy, and I support them leaving the denomination or doing whatever they have to in order to maintain their witness for Jesus.

I'm sorry that your denom. is being torn apart, but you can't just stand by and let the slow slide to apostasy continue.

 

[Macrina]

I'm glad that some churches are standing against the slow slide into heresy, and I support them leaving the denomination or doing whatever they have to in order to maintain their witness for Jesus.

I'm sorry that your denom. is being torn apart, but you can't just stand by and let the slow slide to apostasy continue.

Um, I didn't say I was supporting a slow slide into apostasy.

Actually, I am actively at work to reform the elements of my denomination that are most troublesome.

What I'm talking about is the way in which all this is happening... the ugliness of involving the secular courts... etc. I don't lay the blame in any particular quarter -- I'm just reflecting on the overall character of the situation and wondering how we can all handle it in the best way possible.

I understand why some folks are leaving, and I don't fault them for it. It's a tough situation, and it's painful.

 

[Macrina]

Actually, perhaps I can put my issue more clearly:

When Christians must part ways due to theological differences, what is the best way to handle it?


Sorry if I'm rambling all over the place... it's a complex and troubling set of issues.

 

[BereanTodd]

Actually, perhaps I can put my issue more clearly:

When Christians must part ways due to theological differences, what is the best way to handle it?


Sorry if I'm rambling all over the place... it's a complex and troubling set of issues.

I would say this:

-Try your best to reform and call back to the Bible.

-when it becomes beyond futile to continue (personally I would say that it has reached that point for episcopaleans, but I'm not sure about PC-USA or parts of the Methodists) then it is time to part ways and stand on the truth of Scripture.

-When doing that I think it best to avoid courts. I know of (have heard the story of from a friend who is a former episcopal) one church for example that left the Episcopal church, left the building vacant, and moved to a school. They had their funds coming in from the laity so finances were not an issue. Within a few months, having a vacant building and bills the Episcopals it is my understanding sold the building to the congregation who were able to move back into it.

So yes, I am sadened when the courts come into it.

 

[Tractor1]

Are the differences really irreconcilable? What can we do to stay together? If we absolutely can't stay together, then what is the most appropriate way to part company like Paul and Barnabas did? Can we do this in a way that doesn't tear apart the faith of our members and destroy our witness to our neighbors?

When believers are committed enough to take a doctrinal stand it's likely to shake the faith of some (Heb. 4:12). Many churches (the local organizations not the living organism) will push for compromise on the basis of congregational harmony, but that dishonors God. Two can travel in harmony down the wrong road, therefore, what is needed is unity among believers and God's Word. If denominational leaders are unwilling to repent what recourse is possible? The wise person would shun politics before it embitters, and concentrate efforts in areas that edify.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Macrina]

When believers are committed enough to take a doctrinal stand it's likely to shake the faith of some (Heb. 4:12). Many churches (the local organizations not the living organism) will push for compromise on the basis of congregational harmony, but that dishonors God. Two can travel in harmony down the wrong road, therefore, what is needed is unity among believers and God's Word. If denominational leaders are unwilling to repent what recourse is possible? The wise person would shun politics before it embitters, and concentrate efforts in areas that edify.

In Christ,
Tracey

Hmm, are you saying that it's automatically the right thing to do to leave? How does one know when it reaches that point? I think it is very difficult to tell. There are many in my denomination who are struggling with this question right now -- whether it is best to stay and work for reformation or whether things have progressed to the point where we need to depart.

We are faced with a really difficult situation. There are some people who believe the same things, have the same concerns, but who differ in their response to it. Some are leaving, some are staying, and some are waiting and trying to discern what to do. It doesn't seem very clear-cut to me, and I think that for someone who understands the situation, it's easy to see how people of equally good faith can wrestle with the "what-to-do" question and come up with different answers.

 

[Macrina]

A complicating factor in all of this is the role of the secular courts. Scripture commands us to settle our agreements outside of the courts, and it makes a lot of sense to me. Even if the church has to split (not that I like it, but in the hypothetical case that it's unavoidable), we should be concerned about our witness to the world, which is seriously damaged if we are unfaithful to scripture and start bringing the secular courts into it.

It's a difficult time for us.

 

[Tractor1]

How does one know when it reaches that point?

We are faced with a really difficult situation. There are some people who believe the same things, have the same concerns, but who differ in their response to it.

I've experienced similar circumstances in which the principles were equal. The definitive moment came when the leadership made it clear they'd make policy based on their own desire rather than God's Word. No more clarity was needed. I understand the difficulty. Some will choose to sweep a problem under the rug hoping peace will return. Others will play peace maker in the hope of compromise. But, problems left unaddressed always return, and when compromise is reached it is always to a lower standard. Something important is to know what and why you believe as you do. Then you can have confidence in the Spirit's leading.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Macrina]

I get what you're saying. We have divided leadership in the denomination, and conservative clergy like myself are in a discernment process.

 

[Eusebios]

Macrina,
My heart breaks for you and so many others who find themselves in the same position as you do. I can't imagine how painful it must be.
I too am disgusted when Brothers and Sisters in Christ must air their dirty laundry publicly, or worse yet drag each other before the secular court.
I guess I really don't have any advice to offer other than than to continue to pray for all those involved in the decision making process, and for yourself for the strength and discernment which are necessary for you to make an appropriate decision regarding your own continued affiliation.
In Christ,
Don

 

[Macrina]

Macrina,
My heart breaks for you and so many others who find themselves in the same position as you do. I can't imagine how painful it must be.
I too am disgusted when Brothers and Sisters in Christ must air their dirty laundry publicly, or worse yet drag each other before the secular court.
I guess I really don't have any advice to offer other than than to continue to pray for all those involved in the decision making process, and for yourself for the strength and discernment which are necessary for you to make an appropriate decision regarding your own continued affiliation.
In Christ,
Don

Thank you for your kindness. Today was a particularly difficult day (people I love and respect are filing lawsuits against each other) and I am weary. I know the Lord will renew me tomorrow, but for tonight... friendly words help.

 

[a_ntv]

Well, also St Paul and St Barnabas had a heavy dis-agreement.

Acts 15:39 And there arose a sharp contention, so that they separated from each other; Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus,

But both of them are saints!!

I think that with a little effort is always possible to find an agreement in the separation: of course, both the sides shall loose something.

To be separated with a fair agreement is always a separation, but governed by the charity: it is the first step towards re-conciliation

 

[Macrina]

FWIW, I am not planning on leaving my denomination. Some whom I love and respect feel led to do so, and I do not wish to question their conviction. I, however, feel led to stay and work for change within a unified structure. I can't guarantee that won't ever change... but I want to give staying every chance I can.

 

[IamAdopted]

The only advice that I can give is to seek the scriptures..Pray for all involved.. You are right.. We are not to take our church disputes to unbelievers to decide for us.. I will be praying for you as you seek Gods will in this.. Go to His word.. Let Him lead you through His word..

 

[Macrina]

Thank you for your prayers.

 

[DanielRB]

Peace, Macrina

Actually, perhaps I can put my issue more clearly:

When Christians must part ways due to theological differences, what is the best way to handle it?


Sorry if I'm rambling all over the place... it's a complex and troubling set of issues.

Paul spoke, though not about this specific situation here, about lawsuits:

1 Corinthians 6:1-8 (ESV)
1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints?
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!
4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church?
5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers,
6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?
7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers!

I think Paul would say it's better to let the other group keep the property (and be "defrauded") then to fight about it in secular courts.

I think it's important to follow God's leading, whatever that might be, and not be concerned about the material things like the Church property and other stuff. Try to reach an amicable settlement internally, and if that is impossible, let the other party keep it and go in peace.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[Macrina]

Peace, Macrina



Paul spoke, though not about this specific situation here, about lawsuits:



I think Paul would say it's better to let the other group keep the property (and be "defrauded") then to fight about it in secular courts.

I think it's important to follow God's leading, whatever that might be, and not be concerned about the material things like the Church property and other stuff. Try to reach an amicable settlement internally, and if that is impossible, let the other party keep it and go in peace.

In Christ,

Daniel

I agree. On the basis of that very passage, I am grieved that the case is in secular courts. I lack the power to change that, however.