Involuntary thoughts = sin?

Mongoose · Jan 17, 2004

MattMMMan17 said:
Eltron, in answer to your question, no. A sin must be INTENTIONAL in order for it to be considered a sin. If you banish these thoughts, and do not entertain them, you need not wonder if you've sinned.

If this is true, then it is impossible for mankind to sin. Nothing we do is intentional. We have no freedom in this world.

holo · Jan 25, 2004

Mongoose said:
If this is true, then it is impossible for mankind to sin. Nothing we do is intentional. We have no freedom in this world.

What do you mean? Do you believe we're subject to unchangeable destiny?

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Jan 25, 2004

EltronRangamma said:
Sometimes, Satan whispers ideas into my heads that absolutely repulses me. I have no control over these thoughts but the moment they crop up, I banish the devil in the authority of Jesus Christ; in other words, I don't entertain my thoughts.

So, is an involuntary thought a sin? Is it necessary for me to repent if I have no control over these thoughts?

thoughts cannot be sin but a reg flag.....

sin is an action that you know that God considers unrighteous

1 john 1:8,10
romans 3:23

makes it clear that believers do sin

Polycarp1 · Jan 25, 2004

Involuntary thoughts are not sin -- but encouraging them can be.

The traditional language for this is "entertaining sinful thoughts," and a wise old clergyman of my acquaintance once used a beautiful play on words based on that to explain it:

Your soul is your house. You are not responsible for the temptations that walk up and down the sidewalk outside, even if you happen to notice them. But you are not entitled to figuratively invite them in, pull them up an easy chair, and pour them a cold beverage.

EltronRangamma · Feb 3, 2004

Mongoose said:
If this is true, then it is impossible for mankind to sin. Nothing we do is intentional. We have no freedom in this world.

Nothing we do is intentional? Eh????

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Feb 3, 2004

Free will and God sovernity

go hand in hand

Proverbs 16:9 a man's heart deviseth his way; but the Lord directeth his steps

jamesrwright3 · Feb 9, 2004

Hello

Loopy · Feb 10, 2004

EltronRangamma said:
Sometimes, Satan whispers ideas into my heads that absolutely repulses me. I have no control over these thoughts but the moment they crop up, I banish the devil in the authority of Jesus Christ; in other words, I don't entertain my thoughts.

So, is an involuntary thought a sin? Is it necessary for me to repent if I have no control over these thoughts?

I get involuntary thoughts too... like, insulting phrases I don't even believe will fly into my head before I can react. It doesn't make sense to me that God would hold us accountable for something we can't control, but I really can't pretend to have the answers, so I repent anyway, like someone said.

If we pray for answers, God will put the truth on our hearts.

pmarquette · Feb 11, 2004

SAS044 said:
i have this problem with thoughts too. i was wondering the same thing.

You have 3 voices within you , all sound like you ..... one is your will , one is the Holy Spirit , and one is satan .... compare the thought with the word of God -- 1 John 4.1 to know who is who .... say no to flesh and devil , yes to God ....

when you mess up .... have 1 John 1.8,9 ; Romans 10.8-10 ; Ezekiel 36.26 ;
2 Chronicles 7.14 to come back ...

If you think , day dream all day of sin , the dream will produce the deed ....
the temptation has become a seed you planted in your heart , that was watered by your lust , anger , dwelling on it , that bore fruit in sin ....

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Slave2SinNoMore · Feb 18, 2004

If you are a Christian, you are indeed a new creation. You ahve a new nature, the nature of Christ. The sin nature is dead, crucified with Christ. And only Christ has resurrection power, not the devil or the sin nature.

I believe you are exactly right to think that those involuntary, crazy thoughts are planted in your head by the devil's demons. Since you have the nature of Christ, you know that it is not you generating those wicked thoughts.

But the devil wants people to think they created the thoughts, because that leads to people saying "oh, it's just my old sin nature", which eventually leads people to use the "sin nature" as an excuse to keep sinning - "God understands that I'm doing my best, but after all, it is in my nature to sin". That's hogwash. The sin nature is dead. It is in a Christian's nature to do righteous things, because it is Jesus' nature to do righteous things.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Feb 20, 2004

If we are perfected since we are a new creation ...

why do we sin according to 1 john 1:8-10?

If we were completly perfected this would not happen like as Christ went through the same lusts as we have

we have three enemies in ORDER
#1 the flesh..OSN romans 6:11-13
#2 Satan 2 cor 2:10
#3 world 1 john 2:15

Believes Gods Sovereignity · Feb 20, 2004

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
If we are perfected since we are a new creation ...

why do we sin according to 1 john 1:8-10?

If we were completly perfected this would not happen like as Christ went through the same lusts as we have

we have three enemies in ORDER
#1 the flesh..OSN romans 6:11-13
#2 Satan 2 cor 2:10
#3 world 1 john 2:15

I think that the christian regularly sins, since he has yet to be freed from the presence of sin. But the bible also tells us that "when we do sin, we have someone who speaks to the father for us in our defense."

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Feb 20, 2004

agreed but we are way off topic

Slave2SinNoMore · Feb 20, 2004

The flesh is not perfect. But the flesh is not who you are. The spirit is who you are. The flesh is your house. It holds the spirit. But the spirit of a Christian is absolutely perfect. If you say it is not, you are saying that the spirit of Christ is not perfect. A Christian doesn't have two spirits - he has one spirit, which is joined with the Holy Spirit.

For those who say a Christian isn't holy, just forgiven, they are in effect saying that God is a liar, because the Word plainly tells us that Christ has bestowed his righteousness upon us.

The reason that the flesh sins is because of "the law of sin and death at work in the members". The flesh can also be seen as a tool. God gave you the flesh so that you can do his work. Man's will is not perfected, and in his imperfect will, he can choose to let the spirit of Christ control the flesh (the tool) or the "law of sin and death" control the flesh.

The whole realm of spiritual warfare is about control. Christians have been given things that Satan lusted after, but because of his rebellion, was never given. He figures if he can't get the creator, he'll target the created. He figures that if he can get man to let the "law of sin and death" use the tool that God gave man, then he himself has some measure of power and control.

But he's fooling himself. The jig is up. Christ won at the cross.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Feb 21, 2004

QUOTE=Slave2SinNoMore

The flesh is not perfect. But the flesh is not who you are. The spirit is who you are. The flesh is your house. It holds the spirit. But the spirit of a Christian is absolutely perfect. If you say it is not, you are saying that the spirit of Christ is not perfect. A Christian doesn't have two spirits - he has one spirit, which is joined with the Holy Spirit.

For those who say a Christian isn't holy, just forgiven, they are in effect saying that God is a liar, because the Word plainly tells us that Christ has bestowed[reckons us in the heavenly's not on earth since we are in Christ ]his righteousness upon us.

The reason that the flesh sins is because of "the law of sin and death at work in the members". The flesh can also be seen as a tool. God gave you the flesh so that you can do his work. Man's will is not perfected, and in his imperfect will, he can choose to let the spirit of Christ control the flesh (the tool) or the "law of sin and death" control the flesh.

you understand the double wills of believers?

The whole realm of spiritual warfare is about control. Christians have been given things that Satan lusted after, but because of his rebellion, was never given.[wrong what we have been given is God indwelling as did Satan have when he was lucifer ezekiel 28:14 says he was annointed with the Holy spiritjust like usBUT GOD TOOK HIS AWAY] He figures if he can't get the creator, he'll target the created.True He figures that if he can get man to let the "law of sin and death" use the tool that God gave man, then he himself has some measure of power and control.

We are under Grace not the law

But he's fooling himself. The jig is up. Christ won at the cross. /QUOTE true

HesMyAll · Feb 21, 2004

EltronRangamma said:
Sometimes, Satan whispers ideas into my heads that absolutely repulses me. I have no control over these thoughts but the moment they crop up, I banish the devil in the authority of Jesus Christ; in other words, I don't entertain my thoughts.

So, is an involuntary thought a sin? Is it necessary for me to repent if I have no control over these thoughts?

Having a thought is not a sin, but nuturing bad thoughts could certainly lead down that road. You can't stop birds from flying over your head but you don't have to let them build nests in your hair!

Slave2SinNoMore · Feb 21, 2004

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
QUOTE=Slave2SinNoMore

The flesh is not perfect. But the flesh is not who you are. The spirit is who you are. The flesh is your house. It holds the spirit. But the spirit of a Christian is absolutely perfect. If you say it is not, you are saying that the spirit of Christ is not perfect. A Christian doesn't have two spirits - he has one spirit, which is joined with the Holy Spirit.

For those who say a Christian isn't holy, just forgiven, they are in effect saying that God is a liar, because the Word plainly tells us that Christ has bestowed[reckons us in the heavenly's not on earth since we are in Christ ]his righteousness upon us.

From Slave2SinNoMore: There is no qualifier in the Word that says we're reckoned as holy in the heavenlies, but not on earth. Do you disagree that the spirit is perfect? The word tells us that "the old is passed away" and even that "the old self has been crucified".

The reason that the flesh sins is because of "the law of sin and death at work in the members". The flesh can also be seen as a tool. God gave you the flesh so that you can do his work. Man's will is not perfected, and in his imperfect will, he can choose to let the spirit of Christ control the flesh (the tool) or the "law of sin and death" control the flesh.

you understand the double wills of believers?

Slave2SinNoMore says: I don't understand the question. If you're asking if I believe in dual-natureism, the answer is I do not.

The whole realm of spiritual warfare is about control. Christians have been given things that Satan lusted after, but because of his rebellion, was never given.[wrong what we have been given is God indwelling as did Satan have when he was lucifer ezekiel 28:14 says he was annointed with the Holy spiritjust like usBUT GOD TOOK HIS AWAY]

Slave2SinNoMore says:That's not what I ws talking about. What I was talking about was that the devil wanted a place of honor to the extent that he rebelled against God and was thrown out of heaven , and now God has given man a place of honor.

He figures if he can't get the creator, he'll target the created.True He figures that if he can get man to let the "law of sin and death" use the tool that God gave man, then he himself has some measure of power and control.

We are under Grace not the law
Slave2SinNoMoreSays: I couldn't agree more. The "law of sin and death" that Paul spoke of in Romans is not the same as the "Law of Moses".

But he's fooling himself. The jig is up. Christ won at the cross. /QUOTE true

1by1 · Feb 21, 2004

Well, at least I know I'm no longer alone regarding this subject. I used to think I was the only person in the world who dealt with involuntary intrusive thoughts. (How 'bout we call it IIT, for short? ) I have been struggling with IIT for over 18 years now. It started when I was first going to church, and trying to read the Bible. I would have these negative thoughts about what I was reading - anything from "That's a lie" to "How dare God say that. He must be a hateful idiot." Of course, I didn't want to think things like that, and deep down inside didn't WANT to think things like that. But the thoughts popped into my head anyway. Oh, it was really bad at times. It still can be even today, even though I have prayed and prayed to be freed from this. When my little, precious niece was born in 1993, the very first thought that popped into my mind when I first saw her in the hospital nursery was "You are looking at the anti-Christ." I was appalled at myself for even having such a thought, but I didn't know why I had it. I didn't want it. The truly tragic thing about it is that it influenced how close I allowed myself to get to my niece in her first few years. I felt awful. I was a terrible person and bad uncle. I loved her dearly, but I couldn't get those thoughts out of my head, as irrational as they were.

The thing is, I have also suffered from OCD in my life. Eltron, have you considered that you might have that? People think OCD is strictly the compulsions and rituals that you perform, but there is a whole other part of it that deals with obsessions. A symptom of OCD is unwanted, intrusive thoughts. They spring from seemingly nowhere, and before you can even catch them, they've already happened. Oh my, I feel so guilty sometimes, and truly think I'm a horrible person for thinking such things. But I also know I don't WANT to have them, so if that is the case, how can I be responsible if they aren't something I'm actively choosing to have?

Slave2SinNoMore · Feb 21, 2004

1by1 said:
They spring from seemingly nowhere, and before you can even catch them, they've already happened. Oh my, I feel so guilty sometimes, and truly think I'm a horrible person for thinking such things. But I also know I don't WANT to have them, so if that is the case, how can I be responsible if they aren't something I'm actively choosing to have?

You're not responsible for those crazy thoughts. I used to have wacky, evil thoughts quite a bit - thoughts like "I think I'll drive my car into the embankment...no one will miss me, and I might even take a few people with me" - thoughts that came totally out of the blue with no warning at all - thoughts that I'd say "Where the heck did that come from? I'm not like that". It wasn't until I (1) realized that it wasn't me generating those thoughts and (2) let the one who was generating the thoughts know that I was on to him, that they started to happen a WHOLE LOT LESS.

So was generating those thoughts? Your enemies and mine, Satan and his angels.

These crazy thoughts like "God must be a hateful idiot" are not yours - as a Christian, you would NEVER come up with that on your own. The demons plant those thoughts in people's heads. Satan knows that a Christian hates those kinds of thoughts, so if he can get Christians to believe they've generated the thoughts themselves, he's won half the battle. The devil wants people to think they're struggling with themselves rather than receiving "secret messages" from his evil agents.

Slave2SinNoMore · Feb 21, 2004

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
we have three enemies in ORDER
#1 the flesh..OSN romans 6:11-13
#2 Satan 2 cor 2:10
#3 world 1 john 2:15

The flesh is not my enemy. You notice that in the passage you provide, the desires spoken of are referred to as "it's desires" The "it" being spoken of here is clearly pointed out as "Sin". "Sin" desires for Christians to offer up their bodies as "weapons for unrighteousness". I have every bit as much power to use the flesh God gave me as a weapon of his righteousness as I do a weapon of sin. In fact, more so, since Christ's death broke the control sin had over me. I do not have to sin. I can choose not to. When I do choose to sin, it is because in that moment, the dark forces have succeeded in convincing me that I want to. BUT I DO NOT WANT TO. And as soon as I commit the sin, it hits me: "Why did I do that? I didn't want to!"

Involuntary thoughts = sin?

So it goes.

former Christian

Well-Known Member

Born-again Liberal Episcopalian

Grand Imperial Asiatic

Well-Known Member

jamesrwright3

Guest

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Disciple

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Contributor

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency