involuntary lack of belief

Mountain_Girl406

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With all due respect, the question that I am trying to answer is the OP and question of this thread which is about belief. Why some seem to be able to believe in God vs. others who do not feel that they have that belief.

I understand that you have a great love of science and the things of science as you have been including links about science theories, however I am not here to really debate science. I am not here to 'prove' my beliefs or my faith, because the word faith is really a word that exemplifies belief in something that is unseen and unproven, so we could go around, and around with this but I really have no desire to do that.

What I am trying to do is to bring my perspective and how I see things. I hope that I am explaining these things well, but at the end of the day it is belief and it is faith and I do not in my heart feel the need to substantiate that or 'prove' that in any matter.

I hope that this discussion stays on topic as to belief and God and not get into a discussion about what science can prove or not prove, because countless people have been around and around about that and that will only move us away from the original OP topic.

I think you missed my reply...I am looking for belief, and while scientific evidence may not be the route, it does reduce the number of questions we don't know answers to. For instance we don't need to believe in a sun god with a chariot to pull the sun across the sky..we know how that works.
But there are remaining open questions as I mentioned. How do we go from accepting that to finding faith in the Christian God? Don't we need something akin to evidence to at least discern the right set of beliefs to hold to faithfully?
 
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ToBeLoved

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I do have questions about things like the afterlife, meaning of life, etc...but even those questions require some sort if evidence (even if not really scientific ) to answer. If I accept that it's all because of a God's will, what evidence do I have that it's the Christian God? Or even a single god, or a god that didn't just set things in motion then leave?

But don't you think that the other side of any coin that talks about God or things unknown to us is the 'spiritual' side?

It's like, if there is a belief that God exists which I believe and let's say that this is the God of the Bible, Jesus Christ who was both God and man, who came to earth from heaven to take away sin (which is what separated God and man from way back in the beginning with Adam & Eve) through His death and ressurection. If that is God and God chose to do that for us, then where is God now? According to the Bible, Jesus Christ after His ressurection returned to heaven and is with the Father. So, the point I am trying to make is that God is not dead. When Jesus died, the human part of Jesus died on the cross, but the God part of Jesus resurrected into heaven and is there.

So, we believe and pray to and love a God who is very much alive. A God who is very much with us every day. Jesus told us that for each of His children, that He will never leave us or forsake us.

My point being is that there is a more real 'spiritual' side of God and man's (or woman's or any human being) relationship. It is not some ethereal belief about something that happened 2,000 years ago and ended there. This whole spiritual side of God is what I believe those who try to 'prove' God's existance do not respect or understand.

Trying to prove God has been going on since the world began and no one has been able to do it, so there has to be the spiritual side considered as this is the part that is not provable.

Does that make sense?
 
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ToBeLoved

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I think you missed my reply...I am looking for belief, and while scientific evidence may not be the route, it does reduce the number of questions we don't know answers to. For instance we don't need to believe in a sun god with a chariot to pull the sun across the sky..we know how that works.
But there are remaining open questions as I mentioned. How do we go from accepting that to finding faith in the Christian God? Don't we need something akin to evidence to at least discern the right set of beliefs to hold to faithfully?

I think I understand what you are trying to say.

What I have seen, and this is only my opinion, is that when people go out searching for God among the different religions of the world, most of the time they fall into great confusion, because after a while it is hard to distinguish what is a belief of Judaism, or Christianity or Hinduism, ect. and in that search or research that the different beliefs tend to mesh together in that what is learned about one thing, blends into the next.

What I can testify to is that I have been studying the Bible for more than 35 years with times of great study and times of less study, but I find that I have been able to come to a good understanding of who God is in the Bible. Now that may sound weird from the offset, because one thinks well why would I or do I really need to know who God is, because it's all about what I believe and what I have faith in, but that is one of the great fallicies about God that people believe. Most people or should I say many Christians themselves define God, meaning that they have faith in a God that they have created in their minds, an example would be that God would not let anyone go through pain, so they create themselves a God of the Bible who would not allow pain. However, those who really know the Bible, not by reading it once because the Bible is very detailed and cross references itself in many ways, knows that God created us in His image and by that it means that God has angels that praise His name already, but we were created with the freedom to choose between good and evil. And because God created us not to blindly follow Him by force or by creating us without choice, that he did and does allow man to choose evil, just like He did and does allow man to choose good. This is in the Bible and the point that I am trying to make is that when one learns WHO God is and why God DID things the way He did, then we can see the beauty in what He has given us, which is a great gift in being able to determine and create our own lives through choices that we make each and every moment that allows us to create (as God created us) in a sense our own creation by creating our lives through what we have chosen in the past as well as the choices we will make today and many more choices we will each make tomorrow. Many see God as sitting up there in heaven 'directing' and 'orchestrating' our lives, but in reality God gives us the choice and allows us to make hundreds of choices each day to live out a life of our own creation in a kind of way.

A Christian walks with God (or should according to the Bible) in prayer and understanding, not so God can micro-manage their lives or tell them what decisions to make, but so God touches their hearts and through prayer GUIDES the Christian through making the RIGHT choices for themselves to live a life like our Savior, Christ Jesus lived as He is our example of what the perfect life is that was lived on this earth by being fully human AND fully God and making the RIGHT choices that led to a life with no sin.

The point that I am trying to make is that in the Christian life, the idea is not that God 'tells' us how to live our lives, but through our relationship with God 'we' decide to make our life choices each day to reflect the love of God in our lives.

Now, we Christians do a terrible job at this. Which is why most people say that Christians say do as I say, not as I do. But then, many Christians limit the amount of God that they want in their lives. Some choose prayer and guidance daily, some not much at all, so there is a great vastness of belief and where people fit on a scale of how they apply or are willing to apply their faith in God into their lives (as you can tell by the world around us).

The major thing of being a Christian is to get to know who God is (I'm trying to tie what I've already said together now, I guess in closing) because God has a personality. God is not some image that we create deciding how we want God to be. God IS and to really know God is why people study the Bible. Because God tells us in the Bible His whole story of who He is related to who we are and why we were created and how that all relates to each other.
 
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ToBeLoved

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It seems a bit like you are assuming the Christian God exists and therefore believe in him. But could you not also assume that a different god exists, and come to the same conclusion?

I can say that the Christian God makes sense. That the Christian God layed out in the Bible who He is, why He created us and why the world is the way it is. At this time other religions are monotheistic (one God) but back in the times of the Old Testament when the Israelite's were freed from Egypt and Pharoah even way past the time of Jesus, most other religions had many, many Gods and they would create engraven images to 'house' these God's.

It really is God in the Bible who said that He is the only God. He started monotheistic religion.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I can say that the Christian God makes sense. That the Christian God layed out in the Bible who He is, why He created us and why the world is the way it is. At this time other religions are monotheistic (one God) but back in the times of the Old Testament when the Israelite's were freed from Egypt and Pharoah even way past the time of Jesus, most other religions had many, many Gods and they would create engraven images to 'house' these God's.

It really is God in the Bible who said that He is the only God. He started monotheistic religion.

When I pray and ask God about something and ask Him to show me the truth, I believe that if God was not the Christian God of the Bible, that when I prayed that I wanted to be shown truth, that He would have shown me something else. When I pray about certain verses in the Bible, that are promises of God to His children, He shows me that those promises are mine and that He made those promises to me. So I think that if there was another God who was not the God of the Bible as you have said, that I would have been shown the truth by what I prayed for.

Matthew 7:7-12

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 “For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9“Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10“Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

12 “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets."
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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But if you pray to the Christian God, and nothing is shown to you, then what should you conclude? This isn't a one time thing, I've sadly doubted the existence of God for decades but keep looking, praying, reading the Bible, attending church etc. Nothing has happened as a result that can't be explained by, well, non supernatural, happenings.
 
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ToBeLoved

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But if you pray to the Christian God, and nothing is shown to you, then what should you conclude? This isn't a one time thing, I've sadly doubted the existence of God for decades but keep looking, praying, reading the Bible, attending church etc. Nothing has happened as a result that can't be explained by, well, non supernatural, happenings.
Have you prayed and asked the Lord for faith? Would you like me to pray with you for faith and belief?

Dear Lord, we have our sister MountainGirl who is here today looking for faith and belief that you exist. We pray that you will show her in your own way and time, in a way that is meaningful to her personally, that you exist and want to share who You are with her. We know Lord that when we come to you in faith and belief, even a small amount of belief that you sent your Son, Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins, that we become your children and enter the family of God. Lord, please show this sister that she is in need of your Son, a Savior for any of her sins, so that Jesus can forgive her her sins and she can become one of your own. For those of us with little faith that through prayer that you will increase that initial amount of faith when we come to you in earnest desire to know more. That in your Word, that you have promised us that if we seek you, that we will find you. That when we knock on the door, that you will open a door to us. That when your children ask for the things of God, that you only give them the good things that you have for them. I ask you Lord to put a wonderous desire in her heart to learn more of your loving and marvelous ways. That through her love of science, that you will help her connect the dots between what she knows of science and what she can learn about you through your Word and through prayer. Please fill her heart with your love and the love of all of the saints, so she will see that she is missing something beautiful in her life and will never want to leave your warm, loving arms again. If she desires Lord, I pray that you direct her and guide her to a wonderful home church that will teach her the truth of your Word. I ask all of this in the precious name of your Son, Jesus Christ. Amen.
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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I do appreciate the prayer. I've been praying for a mind that can accept faith or better yet, some sign, experience, or evidence to accept God as real since at an early age (40 or so years ago) when I first began to doubt.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I do appreciate the prayer. I've been praying for a mind that can accept faith or better yet, some sign, experience, or evidence to accept God as real since at an early age (40 or so years ago) when I first began to doubt.
Well, I'm not going to stop praying for you. You are on my prayer list for at least the next month, probably longer. I have a great peace in my spirit that God is going to do something to show you that he exists. I have no idea what it will be and it may not be miraculous, but it will get your attention.

I'm so happy that we started talking. :)
 
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Johnnz

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Belief is not the opposite or denial of reason. An unfounded belief can be no more than mere credulity.

God is not to blame. There is an abundance of really sensible information in support of the reasonableness of Christian belief. It's up to you make use of it.

John
NZ
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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Belief is not the opposite or denial of reason. An unfounded belief can be no more than mere credulity.

God is not to blame. There is an abundance of really sensible information in support of the reasonableness of Christian belief. It's up to you make use of it.

John
NZ
That's what I'm looking for, sensible, reasonable evidence for the Christian faith. Where does one find it?
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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I'm not sure you are going to find what you're looking for. Maybe see a pastor and they can help.
But if it is as abundant as the poster I quoted said it is, why is it so hard for people to find and share.
 
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ToBeLoved

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But if it is as abundant as the poster I quoted said it is, why is it so hard for people to find and share.

I don't really know if you know what you want or need, because you must know more or less what God is about, so what can anyone say to you? What do you want to know? People are to randomly guess? I don't know that we really know how to help you.

What does if it's as abundant as the post I quioted said it is, why is it so hard for people to find it and share. What does that mean?
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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I don't really know if you know what you want or need, because you must know more or less what God is about, so what can anyone say to you? What do you want to know? People are to randomly guess? I don't know that we really know how to help you.

What does if it's as abundant as the post I quioted said it is, why is it so hard for people to find it and share. What does that mean?
I was simply referring to what Johnnz said.
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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Hi all,

So for me the big stumbling block with all religion is this idea of belief.

Okay so I don't consider belief a choice. It's more a graduation point you reach when you're convinced of something. Like if I start telling someone about some idea which seems inplausible and they claim not to believe it off the bat because it falls outside the bounds of reason for example, but as I explain more and more, they gradually reach a point whereby they are convinced by the data, reason, or the evidence . So it's not like they chose to believe but rather they eventually found the proposition credible enough to be convinced of it after a certain point.

An example I've heard is this; if someone has a loved one of yours hostage, with a gun to their head, and they tell you that you must believe a fish can ride a bicycle or they will shoot them in the head, no amount of mental gymnastics is going to allow you to do that. You cannot chose to believe that because there is no good reason to believe that. There is no parallel or precendence for it, nothing about the anatomy of a fish that convinces you he is capable of such a feat and it's nothing you've witnessed or seen happen, ever. So even when the stakes are high you can't force a belief.

So you can't force yourself to believe something although you can pretend to yourself and others you do. That being the case, if the case for Christianity or any other religion or any God in general is not convincing to your brain, not matter how convincing it is to others, why does this result in you being punished for it? How can God punish you for an involuntary thing like lack of belief? That of course assuming that it's 100% necessary for salvation, and the lack of it will result in damnation.

Never heard a good rebuttal to this? So, interested what people think.

Think of The Christian Faith as a personal dynamic daily relationship with our Creator instead of 'a religion' which carries the connotation of jumping thru hoops, trying to earn Gods favor and grace , and following a bunch of rules and made up traditions. Its a loving two way relationship that God is looking for . Lastly, we ALL...every person on Earth.... knows in their Soul that this universe requires a personal, intelligent , interacting, Person behind it even though the Creator cant be seen (yet) , so, never use this lame excuse that God Doesn't Exist as so many people like to do so they can retain their own authority for how they want to live (videlicet, immorally) . What you need to do at this point in your life is to invite God into your life and make room for him...then he will reveal himself to you more n more until you develop strong faith in him. This will open the door to him working in your life in distinctive ways and some remarkable changes inwardly (called the Born Again experience) upon receiving CHrist Gods Son as payment for your many accumulated sins . Don't leave this life without Christ as so many have done to their (now) utter regret. Dave.
 
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sahjimira

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Unbelievers have not the faith due to "hardness of heart" which does not welcome the truth. "Seek and u will find' I think God is dealing with ur heart right now and drawing u to Him. I was totally anti Christian and by the grace of God got saved. Things that made no sense to me before, especially the bible opened up for me. The bible is spiritually discerned, that's why it seems foolish or contradictory to the carnal mind
 
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sahjimira

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Unbelievers have not the faith due to "hardness of heart" which does not welcome the truth. "Seek and u will find' I think God is dealing with ur heart right now and drawing u to Him. I was totally anti Christian and by the grace of God got saved. Things that made no sense to me before, especially the bible opened up for me. The bible is spiritually discerned, that's why it seems foolish or contradictory to the carnal mind
 
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sahjimira

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Unbelievers have not the faith due to "hardness of heart" which does not welcome the truth. "Seek and u will find' I think God is dealing with ur heart right now and drawing u to Him. I was totally anti Christian and by the grace of God got saved. Things that made no sense to me before, especially the bible opened up for me. The bible is spiritually discerned, that's why it seems foolish or contradictory to the carnal mind
 
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