Investigative Judgment

[deu58]

Hi all

Now the Holy Spirit dwells within us and empowers us. Continually committed to Jesus as our Saviour and Lord, we are set free from the burden of our past deeds. No longer do we live in the darkness, fear of evil powers, ignorance, and meaninglessness of our former way of life. In this new freedom in Jesus,

This was just posted in another thread as a new fundamental belief bringing the total to 28 now, I cut out this part because it looked to me as if the Adventist church may be moving away from the original teaching of the Investigative Judgment,

I know the traditionalists still hold to the original teaching but I am curious of what the the moderate/liberal view is towards the Investigative Judment

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[2tim]

2Tim is a conservative, and thus unqualified to answer. But I look forward to hearing the reply of others...

2Tim

 

[statrei]

Could you tell us how you came to your conclusion regarding the IJ from this excerpt?

 

[deu58]

Hello Stateri,

Sure, Right here is the central part of why I am asking,

we are set free from the burden of our past deeds.

This at least to me seems to be contrary as to what sister White taught concerning the IJ,

Here are a couple of examples from her writings,

Patrarchs and Prophets Ch 18 The night of Wrestling Pg 203
In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while they do this. The long, black catalogue of our delinquencies is before the eye of the Infinite. The register is complete; none of our offenses are forgotten. But He who listened to the cries of His servants of old, will hear the prayer of faith and pardon our transgressions.

Evangelism
Pg 222
Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. {Ev 221.3}

It would seem that the new fundamental belief that now, In the present you are free from your past deeds Is contray to what she says concerning past sins of the believer still being present before God today,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[StormyOne]

I will take a stab at it since I tend to be more liberal than most... (ask me about the organized church sometime)

Here is a statement that I have used previously, but let's take it in another direction:

"Those who differ with us in faith and doctrine should be treated kindly. They are the property of Christ, and we must meet them in the great day of final account. We shall have to face one another in the judgment, and behold the record of our thoughts, words, and deeds, not as we have viewed them, but as they were in truth. God has enjoined upon us the duty of loving one another as Christ loved us. Ellen White, My Life Today, p. 187."

Okay here is my problem. If we as sda's believe in the Investigative Judgement, then judgement is happening as we speak, when Christ returns there is no judgement bar that we must stand before because the "judgement" has already happened. I mean how is it that we will face judgement (in the end) yet judgement be happening now? He is coming back to give out rewards or am I mistaken?

Two, when God forgives us and casts our sins into the depths of the sea, then there is nothing recorded on the heavenly DVDs regarding the "sins" we have committed because they have been erased. Thus, those sins aren't held against us because they have ceased to exist. So why would a "heavenly sanctuary" need cleasing if those sins have ceased to exist?

Three, if Christ's righteousness has taken the place of our righteousness, the deeds of Christians are covered by the righteous deeds of Christ or are they? In effect Christ would be looking at His own work, if a person is in Christ and being transformed by His Spirit correct?

So then there is nothing in the life of the believer that needs to be reviewed.... Sins have been forgiven and forgotten... Righteousness is covered by the righteousness of Christ... so what is being investigated?

 

[statrei]

Pg 222
Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. {Ev 221.3}

It would seem that the new fundamental belief that now, In the present you are free from your past deeds Is contray to what she says concerning past sins of the believer still being present before God today,

yours in Christ
deu 58

I agree that she was mistaken, but her error here is the same held by all Christians who believe that we appear before the judgement seat to answer some charge against us. It is God's judgement, not ours. The Bible is clear on that.

But you are wrong to conclude that to say our sins are not forgotten means thay are present before God. Our sins are forgiven not forgotten. If your liberty is based on the fact that someone has forgotten something you cannot be at ease because you have no idea what will happen if they should happen to remember. An eternal God cannot forget in the way we use the word.

 

[HoneyDew]

I will take a stab at it since I tend to be more liberal than most... (ask me about the organized church sometime)

Here is a statement that I have used previously, but let's take it in another direction:


Okay here is my problem. If we as sda's believe in the Investigative Judgement, then judgement is happening as we speak, when Christ returns there is no judgement bar that we must stand before because the "judgement" has already happened. I mean how is it that we will face judgement (in the end) yet judgement be happening now? He is coming back to give out rewards or am I mistaken?

Two, when God forgives us and casts our sins into the depths of the sea, then there is nothing recorded on the heavenly DVDs regarding the "sins" we have committed because they have been erased. Thus, those sins aren't held against us because they have ceased to exist. So why would a "heavenly sanctuary" need cleasing if those sins have ceased to exist?

Three, if Christ's righteousness has taken the place of our righteousness, the deeds of Christians are covered by the righteous deeds of Christ or are they? In effect Christ would be looking at His own work, if a person is in Christ and being transformed by His Spirit correct?

So then there is nothing in the life of the believer that needs to be reviewed.... Sins have been forgiven and forgotten... Righteousness is covered by the righteousness of Christ... so what is being investigated?

Here is another "I agree" post.

 

[deu58]

Hi all

This is all very interesting, Thank you for your responses, Have any of you experienced any divisions in your local churches over the issue the IJ????

If we do not get any contrary opinions here I am thinking of asking a series of questions here regarding other issues concerning SDA Modern beliefs compared to Historical rather than start a whole slew of other threads,

What I would like to do is only get this why I do or do not accept this rather than debates on I accept this and here is why you should to,

Just a questions and answers thread and no debating, Considering there are only a few of us here this should work pretty well,

Is every body ok with that or would you all rather have separate threads and debate the traditionall against the modernist views???

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[statrei]

Hi all

This is all very interesting, Thank you for your responses, Have any of you experienced any divisions in your local churches over the issue the IJ????

I can't tell you the last time I heard the IJ mentioned or discussed in church. If there were a division I would not get involved in it.

 

[StormyOne]

Hi all

This is all very interesting, Thank you for your responses, Have any of you experienced any divisions in your local churches over the issue the IJ????

If we do not get any contrary opinions here I am thinking of asking a series of questions here regarding other issues concerning SDA Modern beliefs compared to Historical rather than start a whole slew of other threads,

What I would like to do is only get this why I do or do not accept this rather than debates on I accept this and here is why you should to,

Just a questions and answers thread and no debating, Considering there are only a few of us here this should work pretty well,

Is every body ok with that or would you all rather have separate threads and debate the traditionall against the modernist views???

yours in Christ
deu 58

Ask away....

 

[SpeakNow]

Is every body ok with that or would you all rather have separate threads and debate the traditionall against the modernist views???

This is a non-debate area for non-Adventists Deu. If you'd like to open a thread to debate any topic, I do hope you mean in the GT section of this site.

Your sister in Christ

 

[deu58]

Hi Speak now

This is a non-debate area for non-Adventists Deu. If you'd like to open a thread to debate any topic, I do hope you mean in the GT section of this site.

Your sister in Christ

I am not sure what you mean here, I meant that if the SDA's are going to argue points on this thread I would open them separatly here,

My interest really is in seeing what the dominate opinion is in the SDA church,

I am already well aware of the historical point of view, I want to see the liberal point of view also,

Yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[deu58]

Hi All

Ok here is another question, Do you believe that believe that there will be a world wide Sunday Law and if so how will it be enforced on the world population,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[statrei]

Hi All

Ok here is another question, Do you believe that believe that there will be a world wide Sunday Law and if so how will it be enforced on the world population,

yours in Christ
deu 58

I asked that already and there was not answer forthcoming. I doubt you will have better fortune, but one never knows.

 

[Olikamay]

Here is another "I agree" post.

Me thinks that Honey is in LOVE with Stormy!!!! Do we have a relationship brewing perhaps??? hhhmm??

 

[statrei]

Me thinks that Honey is in LOVE with Stormy!!!! Do we have a relationship brewing perhaps??? hhhmm??

Are you applying for the position of Matron of Honor?

 

[Olikamay]

Hello Stateri,

Sure, Right here is the central part of why I am asking,

we are set free from the burden of our past deeds.

This at least to me seems to be contrary as to what sister White taught concerning the IJ,

Here are a couple of examples from her writings,

Patrarchs and Prophets Ch 18 The night of Wrestling Pg 203
In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while they do this. The long, black catalogue of our delinquencies is before the eye of the Infinite. The register is complete; none of our offenses are forgotten. But He who listened to the cries of His servants of old, will hear the prayer of faith and pardon our transgressions.

Evangelism
Pg 222
Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. {Ev 221.3}

It would seem that the new fundamental belief that now, In the present you are free from your past deeds Is contray to what she says concerning past sins of the believer still being present before God today,

yours in Christ
deu 58

These two texts come to mind....

Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I'm sure you understand the import here.

 

[SassySDA]

Me thinks that Honey is in LOVE with Stormy!!!! Do we have a relationship brewing perhaps??? hhhmm??

Better not be....he drives a VETTE! And besides, I saw him first.

ROFL

 

[statrei]

Better not be....he drives a VETTE! And besides, I saw him first.

ROFL

I knew it. I knew it.

 

[SassySDA]

Hi All

Ok here is another question, Do you believe that believe that there will be a world wide Sunday Law and if so how will it be enforced on the world population,

yours in Christ
deu 58

I most definitely do believe there will be a Sunday Law enacted. It will be introduced through Homeland Security...in that they will use fear tactics to enact it.

I can easily see it happening with most people not even blinking an eye, because for one thing the majority of the population already goes to church on Sunday...

The fear of terrorism will be used on folks, I can see the president (whichever one is in office at the time) telling us how our country is in dire trouble, and they have come to the conclusion that the reason goes to our having taken God out of almost everything...we need to get BACK to God...that's how it will start, and the enactment of it won't even draw a murmur.

That what I envision anyway...no one knows for CERTAIN how it will be enacted.