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However if you have ever had a dog larger than a toy breed, there can be no question as to the source of the dampness.
Besides, I thought maybe, just maybe, we all might smile and we could get over the seeming moot points.
Maybe try looking at it from a different angle:How is it that Sovereign, All-knowing God, who knit us together in the womb, and knows even the number of hairs on our heads has to 'investigate' anything (He knows ALL things!)? Why do you suppose it would take an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, all-knowing God 160+ years to attempt to sort out who's lost and who's saved? Doesn't anyone else find that a bit silly?
All I can say is that for the larger breeds to get soaked, with anything other than clear water, they would have to roll in a mud puddle.
How could God 'need' peace of mind, or anything?Maybe try looking at it from a different angle:
Instead of God using the IJ as a time to "make sure" He "gets it right", could it actually be that the IJ isn't for God's peace of mind
Do you have any Scripture showing that God is on trial before the universe to 'make sure' he is Just?Loveaboveall said:but it is for the rest of the universe. Isn't the universe looking on to see that yes indeed God is Just and Satan a liar?
Satan is not the nemesis of Christ. God is all-powerful and there it's no-contest. God answers to nobody, and he is not in a position of needing to be 'vindicated' by anyone either. He's GOD! If he needed to be vindicated, or there was a universal question as to whether he was fair or not, he wouldn't be God. He is the 'I AM'.Loveaboveall said:Isn't that what the Great Controversy is all about?
It was nice that the response from Dr. Ford is found father down the page where he says:I found this one interesting -- "Daniels use of 2300 evenings mornings rather than days in 8:14 follows the formula of the Genesis 1 creation account, with a possible secondary allusion to the sanctuary service. That it equates to 2300 days is supported by a number of well-respected contemporary scholars (all non-SDA), including John Goldingay (1989), Stephen Miller (1994) and Ernest Lucas (2002)."
Leupold is representative of exegetes and writes: "...verse 5 reports the conclusion of this day's work not its beginning.... For 'evening' marks the conclusion of the day, and 'morning' marks the conclusion of the night,'" Exposition of Genesis, pp. 56,57. Skinner in the ICC writes: "it is impossible to take the words as meaning that the evening and morning FORMED the first (second etc) day...there could be no evening before the day on which light was created. The sentence must refer to the CLOSE of the first day with the first evening and the night that followed, leading the mind forward to the advent of a new day...." p.21. Keil and Delitzsch say: "...morning is not equivalent to day, nor evening to night." p. 51 ,Commentary on Genesis.
We would stress that this issue is very easily solved by anyone spending half an hour with a concordance. We challenge our friends who differ to investigate further. The foregoing DOES invalidate "Daniel's clear allusion to Genesis" ( point 3).
It is possible to make a case for the 2300 evening mornings to mean that many days. I did so in the commentary I wrote in the early 70's. But the case just will not stand up to close investigation, whether it is made by Goldingay or others. Tamid is a generic word specifying the kind of offering under discussion, but ereb-bokr is a chronological statement . I have a sheaf of letters from scholars in top universities (Yale, Princeton, Harvard, Chicago etc) agreeing with the above.
(5) The fact that the evening offering burned all through the night and the morning offering all through the day is an incidental truth and it is not implicit in ereb-bokr. And the fact that the article is repeated in 8:26 so that it reads " the vision of the evening and the morning" forbids reading the words as constituting a single unit. For the latter, v. 26 would need to say "the vision of the evening-morning" without the second article.
(6) As regards tsadaq-- there is no scholarly controversy. Even the GV consensus statement agreed that its meaning is not "cleansed" but "restored" or "vindicated". It always has to do with the possession or passing on of moral quality---never ceremonial cleanliness. The context shows that here in Daniel 8 it signifies the reversal of the work of the little horn. Job 4:17 is clearly a reference to moral purity, not that signified by taher in ceremonial contexts like Lev. 16. Taher is never used for moral cleansing. The two terms are not interchangeable but mutually exclusive. The translation "cleansed" in the KJV reflects the LXX and the Vulgate which used the Greek term as signifying the reversal of what Antiochus Epiphanes had done.
Bingo! And well put!Maybe try looking at it from a different angle:
Instead of God using the IJ as a time to "make sure" He "gets it right", could it actually be that the IJ isn't for God's peace of mind but it is for the rest of the universe. Isn't the universe looking on to see that yes indeed God is Just and Satan a liar? Isn't that what the Great Controversy is all about?
The study by Smith and Shavik didn't claim that ALL scholars agree with the 2300 days. They simply noted that some do. Secondly, one should also look at the dates of the respective scholars. Thirdly, truth isn't found by counting noses. When Martin Luther came out with "justification by faith" it wasn't widely taught by the theologians of the time. When John Wesley and company preached on the method of Christ it wasn't widely taught by theologians in his day either.It was nice that the response from Dr. Ford is found father down the page where he says:
Originally Posted by Loveaboveall
Isn't that what the Great Controversy is all about?
Satan is not the nemesis of Christ. God is all-powerful and there it's no-contest. God answers to nobody, and he is not in a position of needing to be 'vindicated' by anyone either. He's GOD! If he needed to be vindicated, or there was a universal question as to whether he was fair or not, he wouldn't be God. He is the 'I AM'.
Do you have any Scripture showing that God is on trial before the universe to 'make sure' he is Just?
Satan is not the nemesis of Christ. God is all-powerful and there it's no-contest. God answers to nobody, and he is not in a position of needing to be 'vindicated' by anyone either. He's GOD! If he needed to be vindicated, or there was a universal question as to whether he was fair or not, he wouldn't be God. He is the 'I AM'.
How could God 'need' peace of mind, or anything?
These verses also seem to say to me that God does have an adversary who is warring against Him. It doesn't say that the devil was destroyed but he was cast out of heaven. So the adversary is still alive which means he is still the adversary of God, which is why we have this problem of sin that started in the garden; and for God to save His creation from the devil and to get rid of sin FOREVER Jesus came to prove to the principalities and powers and the whole universe that His law is just and that sin is not acceptable and that it is just to punish it with death.
The ancient man approached God...as the accused person approaches his judge. For the modern man the roles are reversed. He is the judge: God in the dock. He is quite a kindly judge: if God should have a reasonable defense for being the god who permits war, poverty, and disease, he is ready to listen to it. The trial may even end in God's acquittal. But the important thing is that man is on the bench and God is in the dock.
Oh! How arrogant we can be! How could we think that we could be more loving than the God, who is love? How could we think that we could be more just than the very Being who defines justice?
http://cafesda.blogspot.com/2006/09/is-god-on-trial.html
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It was a rhetorical question...How could you possibly read such a thing into the post when it very clearly states: "the IJ isn't for God's peace of mind"?
Pre-fall refers to the condition of human nature before the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God made them perfect, in His image (Genesis 1:27) without any tendency to sin.
Post-fall is the direct opposite: the nature inherited after the Fall by humans due to the sin committed in Eden. It basically infers the tendecy to sin, ie, a sinful nature.
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