Investigative Judgment

[jlujan69]

What exactly is this? Some of my questions: For the Christian, what happens if he's not fully forgiven by the time of his death? How does he receive full forgiveness? Does he have assurance of this in this life? There may be other queries depending on the responses. Thanks in advance for any information.

 

[PaleHorse]

This is a very good question for it is not something that just jumps out at us upon reading scripture, as such, it is a point of great misunderstanding. Hopefully I'll explain this doctrine in an understandable fashion:

The doctrine is rooted in the following verses, of which I'll add some commentary as we go; the verses are:
Heb. 4:14; 8:1, 2; Lev. 16:2, 29; Heb. 9:23, 24; Dan. 8:14; 9:24-27; Rev. 14:6, 7; 22:11.

Heb. 4:14 - Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Heb. 8:1, 2 - Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Lev 16:2-29 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. 3 Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering. 4 He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on. 5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. 11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself: 12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail: 13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not: 14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times. 15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. 20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. 23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there: 24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people. 25 And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar. 26 And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp. 27 And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung. 28 And he that burneth them shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp. 29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

Heb. 9:23 - It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Dan. 8:14 - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Dan. 9:24-27 - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Rev. 14:6, 7 - And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev. 22:11 - He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Ok, now that we have the applicable verses I'll see if I can answer your questions:

What exactly is this?

Basically, we believe that there will be a point in time where Christ, our heavenly High Priest (Heb. 4:14 & Heb. 8:1, 2), will have to close the heavenly tabernacle in heaven so that judgment can be passed. Judgment cannot be made unless there is an examination done on every person who has ever lived, this is how names are come to be blotted out in the book of Life. As you know, the earthly tabernacle was just a shadow of the true tabernacle in heaven; and it functions in a similar manner - the big difference is that Christ is the atoning blood, not animals as it was in the Old Covenant. Christ is the High Priest, the minister, of the heavenly tabernacle and just like the example God gave us with the Levitical priests, there is a time when Christ will have to cleanse the heavenly tabernacle; we believe this occurred in 1844 as the fulfillment of Dan 8:14, as the 2,300 prophetic years talks about. What that means to us today is that essencially we are on borrowed time - just as in the days of Noah. God gave about 130 years (if memory serves) for Noah to try an convince the people of His coming wrath - but they wouldn't heed. We feel we are in a similar time for God's wrath and judgment is fast approaching.
The rather lengthy post of Lev 16:2-29 is there to explain the functions of the earthly tabernacle - which were the pattern for what actually occurs in heaven. It is important to know the minute details of this atonement system for, just as Heb. 9:23 indicates, it is patterned after the heavenly tabernacle and the "better sacrifice" is our lamb, Jesus Christ. If we don't fully understand the earthly tabernacle's function (specifically that of the scapegoat and how sin is transferred to it) then we'll never understand how atonement for sin actually occurs and when/how all sin will eventually be placed on Satan's head and sin will be no more.
As Rev. 14:6, 7 indicates, there will be a judgment that separates the wicked from the righteous. When this occurs, just as Rev. 22:11 states, those that are wicked will remain wicked - there is no second chance, and those that are righteous will remain righteous.

For the Christian, what happens if he's not fully forgiven by the time of his death?

Christ knows the heart of each of us. If a person has strived to live a life of righteousness and always humbled himself to Christ when those times of stumbling have occurred (for we all sin) and repented of that sin and sincerely asked for forgiveness, Christ will know if that person would have repented if given the opportunity and thus their judgment will be favorable. So when you say "fully forgiven" I assume you mean that there were sins not confessed or repented of in that person's life? If so, Christ will know and understand that.

How does he receive full forgiveness?

In the exact manner described in the above answer.

Does he have assurance of this in this life?

Yes, absolutely! But that doesn't mean we can become slack in repenting and confessing of our sins. Righteousness is not a destination, it is a journey, a life devoted to Christ, accepting His free gift of grace, and following His moral law. Christ is our only hope for salvation, not works, but that doesn't give us license to willfully sin or live as we please - it is the will of the Father that must yielded to. To us, grace is not a one-time good deal; that after baptism we are forever "saved". God gave us freedom of choice; we can choose to follow Him or we can choose to follow Satan. This is a daily choice (1 Cor 15:31) we make that God will not interfere with, else we don't really have freedom of choice. One who is righteous has the ability to turn from righteousness and fall into iniquity (this is reflected in Eze 18:24, Isaiah 29:13, Titus 3:8, Luke 22:32, Hebrews 6:15, Hebrews 12:15, 2 Timothy 2:3, 2 Thess. 1:4, and Matt 7:22, 23 to name a few). Therefore we must be diligent to stay on the straight path (Matt 7:14) which leads to eternal life.

You'll notice that I haven't yet referenced Dan. 9:24-27; I did this for a reason. You see, the Dan. 9 prophecy is key to this study, especially for those that belief there IS a second chance after the "secret rapture" - that belief is rooted in what believe is a misinterpretation of the Dan. 9 prophecy, specifically verse 27.

Would you like a quick explanation of how we interpret the Dan. 9 prophecy?

 

[PaleHorse]

Here is the official General Conference statement concerning this topic:

"There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent."

 

[jlujan69]

Thanks for the info. My understanding of it was that if a Christian commits a sin and repents, in Heaven, he is considered to be "pardoned", but he must still do certain good deeds in order to be fully pardoned. At the Judgment, all of his bad deeds will be weighed against the good works he commited in order to "make up for" them and some sort of judgment will be rendered. If this were true, then that would seem to me that we can have no assurance of complete forgiveness in this life and repentence would be the product of works rather than the other way around. Is this understanding correct or am I way off base here?

 

[PaleHorse]

Thanks for the info. My understanding of it was that if a Christian commits a sin and repents, in Heaven, he is considered to be "pardoned", but he must still do certain good deeds in order to be fully pardoned. At the Judgment, all of his bad deeds will be weighed against the good works he commited in order to "make up for" them and some sort of judgment will be rendered. If this were true, then that would seem to me that we can have no assurance of complete forgiveness in this life and repentence would be the product of works rather than the other way around. Is this understanding correct or am I way off base here?

Yeah, you're a bit off base.
We don't believe anyone who gets to Heaven will sin, it is this singular judgment that will decide who gets to Heaven and who doesn't. The judgment is what will seperate the wheat from the chaff (Matt 3:12 & Luke 3:17) before Christ's return. For Christ brings His reward (eternal life) with Him (Isa 40:10 & Isa 62:11), not before.
You see, we do not believe that when someone dies they are immediately sent to either Heaven or hell, for the Bible tells us the Judgment must come first and that judgment is not rendered until Christ's return. To truly understand the reasons why you'd have to read my essay post called "Our view of the State of the Dead". We do not believe in the body-soul dualism view as taught by Greek philosophy which has largely been adopted by modern Christiandom, we believe in body-soul-spirit wholism.
Forgiveness is not gained through good works, we understand that. To us, forgiveness is attained by simply recognizing we are sinners, we confess our sin to Christ and repent. The Bible assures us that Christ will forgive that sin by atoning for it in the Heavenly Sanctuary - that is why He is our High Priest. That is grace as we understand it. Grace is receiving a pardon that we don't deserve - and only Christ, the sacrifice without spot, the sinless one, the one who bought us for a price, has the power to pardon us. It is not accomplished by our works nor is it accomplished by our keeping of the Ten Commandments.
Which brings up another greatly misunderstood facet of our faith. Many believe that SDAs keep the Ten Commandments in order to be saved; this is not the case at all. We follow the Ten Commandments because we are saved. Notice the difference there. It is because we are saved, because we are adopted into Christ's family by accepting His free gift of salvation, that we love to do His commandments. Keeping His law is done out of love (John 14:15 & John 15:10 to name but two references, there are many more) not out of a sense of "working our way to heaven" - for that is impossible. The law does not save us - that was never it's purpose - it's purpose was/is to show us that we are sinning. In that regard it sort of acts like a mirror (James 1:23-25), we look into it and it will show us if we have sin in our lives; in that regard it does us a great favor. If we are found to have sin then we must go to Christ and sincerely confess, repent, and ask forgiveness. Then Christ, in His great love, washes that sin from our lives (with His redeeming blood) and we are made clean, we are then perfect in His eyes. This is the state we want to be in (clean/perfect) when we die or when Christ returns.

Does that help clarify?

 

[jlujan69]

Yeah, you're a bit off base.
We don't believe anyone who gets to Heaven will sin, it is this singular judgment that will decide who gets to Heaven and who doesn't. The judgment is what will seperate the wheat from the chaff (Matt 3:12 & Luke 3:17) before Christ's return. For Christ brings His reward (eternal life) with Him (Isa 40:10 & Isa 62:11), not before.
You see, we do not believe that when someone dies they are immediately sent to either Heaven or hell, for the Bible tells us the Judgment must come first and that judgment is not rendered until Christ's return. To truly understand the reasons why you'd have to read my essay post called "Our view of the State of the Dead". We do not believe in the body-soul dualism view as taught by Greek philosophy which has largely been adopted by modern Christiandom, we believe in body-soul-spirit wholism.
Forgiveness is not gained through good works, we understand that. To us, forgiveness is attained by simply recognizing we are sinners, we confess our sin to Christ and repent. The Bible assures us that Christ will forgive that sin by atoning for it in the Heavenly Sanctuary - that is why He is our High Priest. That is grace as we understand it. Grace is receiving a pardon that we don't deserve - and only Christ, the sacrifice without spot, the sinless one, the one who bought us for a price, has the power to pardon us. It is not accomplished by our works nor is it accomplished by our keeping of the Ten Commandments.
Which brings up another greatly misunderstood facet of our faith. Many believe that SDAs keep the Ten Commandments in order to be saved; this is not the case at all. We follow the Ten Commandments because we are saved. Notice the difference there. It is because we are saved, because we are adopted into Christ's family by accepting His free gift of salvation, that we love to do His commandments. Keeping His law is done out of love (John 14:15 & John 15:10 to name but two references, there are many more) not out of a sense of "working our way to heaven" - for that is impossible. The law does not save us - that was never it's purpose - it's purpose was/is to show us that we are sinning. In that regard it sort of acts like a mirror (James 1:23-25), we look into it and it will show us if we have sin in our lives; in that regard it does us a great favor. If we are found to have sin then we must go to Christ and sincerely confess, repent, and ask forgiveness. Then Christ, in His great love, washes that sin from our lives (with His redeeming blood) and we are made clean, we are then perfect in His eyes. This is the state we want to be in (clean/perfect) when we die or when Christ returns.
Does that help clarify?

Thanks for the clarification. I read that link you provided on the state of the dead and now understand a little better your position on annihilationism and what happens after we die.

 

[Cliff2]

Thanks for the info. My understanding of it was that if a Christian commits a sin and repents, in Heaven, he is considered to be "pardoned", but he must still do certain good deeds in order to be fully pardoned. At the Judgment, all of his bad deeds will be weighed against the good works he commited in order to "make up for" them and some sort of judgment will be rendered. If this were true, then that would seem to me that we can have no assurance of complete forgiveness in this life and repentence would be the product of works rather than the other way around. Is this understanding correct or am I way off base here?

No where near the mark.


I will elaborate when time permits.

 

[statrei]

Thanks for the info. My understanding of it was that if a Christian commits a sin and repents, in Heaven, he is considered to be "pardoned", but he must still do certain good deeds in order to be fully pardoned. At the Judgment, all of his bad deeds will be weighed against the good works he commited in order to "make up for" them and some sort of judgment will be rendered. If this were true, then that would seem to me that we can have no assurance of complete forgiveness in this life and repentence would be the product of works rather than the other way around. Is this understanding correct or am I way off base here?

That understanding is wrong. This does not mean that I accept the traditional Adventist view on that subject.

 

[Starr SDA Living Word]

God Bless and Happy Sabbath.

 

[smooze]

Starr very original! lol

 

[TrustAndObey]

When Jesus returns He slays the wicked with the brightness of His COMING....so obviously He has to already know who the wicked are in order for that to happen.

 

[SassySDA]

I hope so, or all better duck.

 

[reddogs]

This is a excellent explanation..The Investigative Judgment is a unique Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, which asserts that a judgment of professed Christian believers has been in progress since October 22, 1844.

The Millerite movement in the USA expected Jesus Christ to return to earth on October 22, 1844, based on their interpretation of Daniel 8:14. When Jesus failed to return on that date (the Great Disappointment), certain members of the original movement concluded that the event predicted by Daniel 8:14 was not the return of Christ, but rather Christ's entrance into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary. This new conviction formed the foundation of the Adventist doctrine of the sanctuary, and the people who held it became the nucleus of the emerging Seventh-day Adventist church.
Over time, Adventists came to believe that the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary involves a work of judgment. In the 1850s, J. N. Loughborough and Uriah Smith began to teach that a judgment had begun in 1844 when Christ entered the Most Holy Place. Subsequently, in 1857, James White (husband of Ellen G. White) wrote in the Review and Herald (now the Adventist Review) that an "investigative judgment" was taking place in heaven, in which the lives of professed believers would pass in review before God.[1] This is the first time that the phrase "investigative judgment" was used.
The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment was given its most thorough exposition in chapter 28 - Facing Life's Record of The Great Controversy by Ellen G. White.

The main biblical texts in support of the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement are Daniel 7:9-10, 1 Peter 4:17 and Revelation 20:12.
As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:9, 10 (NIV) For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 (NIV) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Revelation 20:12 (NIV) Adventists also believe that the Investigative Judgment is depicted in the parable of the wedding banquet, in Matthew 22:1-14. Professing Christians are represented by the wedding guests, and the judgment is represented by the King's inspection of the guests (verses 10, 11). In order to pass the judgment, believers must be wearing the robe of Christ's righteousness, represented by the wedding garments (verses 11, 12).

Adventist teaching is that the works of all men and women are written down in "books of record", kept in heaven. During the investigative judgment, these books will be opened (as described in Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:12), and the lives of all professed Christians, living and dead, will be examined to determine who is truly worthy of salvation. "The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment." "As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated."

The judgment will separate out those who are authentic believers in Christ from those who are not. "All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life." On the other hand, "When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance." "Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God."

During the judgment, Satan will attempt to accuse Christians of transgression and unbelief, while Jesus acts as defense. "Jesus will appear as their advocate, to plead in their behalf before God." "While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors."

Although the time of the commencement of the Investigative Judgment is clear (October 1844), no one can know when it will end. "The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord." However, "silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men."

The end of the Investigative Judgment is termed "the close of probation" by Seventh-day Adventists. At this point in time, "the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death". There will be no further opportunity for unbelievers to repent and be saved. Revelation 22:11 is considered to describe the close of probation: "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

Following the close of probation will be a "time of trouble", which will be a period of intense conflict and persecution for God's people. Shortly afterwards, Christ will return in glory and raise the righteous dead (the "first resurrection"), whom he will take to heaven together with the righteous living to share his millennial reign. (Just who these "righteous" are will, of course, have been determined in the course of the investigative judgment.) At the end of the millennium, Christ will again return to earth to raise the wicked (the "second resurrection") and pronounce final condemnation upon them. This is known as the “executive” (as opposed to the “investigative&#8221 phase of the judgment.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

When Jesus returns He slays the wicked with the brightness of His COMING....so obviously He has to already know who the wicked are in order for that to happen.

This is a excellent explanation..

Well actually no, the bible does not tell us that God slays the wicked with the brightness of His coming. The Bible verse as opposed to Ellen White's interpretation speaks specifically of destroying the lawless one.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-10 NIV Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,

 

[NightEternal]

Quote from PaleHorse: Christ knows the heart of each of us. If a person has strived to live a life of righteousness

Since when is our salvation contigent upon living a life of 'righteousness'? Too many are experts on giving lip service to righteousness by faith in Christ alone, but thier constant subtle attempts at inserting the merits of the individual nullifies any such claims. All the 'striving' a Christian attempts will only be counted as filthy rags when Christ returns. Once again we have the insidious Roman Catholic process theology seeping into Adventist thought. Christ alone is truly righteous and holy. No mortal sinner will ever be able to make that claim unless it is on the merits of Christs own righteousnes in place of thier own.

and always humbled himself to Christ

How can anyone claim humility when they are still deluded enough to think that God will show any favor towards thier attempts at 'striving' to be 'righteous'?

when those times of stumbling have occurred (for we all sin) and repented of that sin and sincerely asked for forgiveness, Christ will know if that person would have repented if given the opportunity and thus their judgment will be favorable.

Once again, many insist on making the fruit of the problem the focus instead of the root of the problem, where the real issue lies. The problem is not that we sin. The problem is that we are sinners, corrupted by a fallen, sinful nature, a condition in which the natural outgrowth are sinful behaviors.


TSDA's have no real concept of the condition we are in nor the severity of our sin problem. It is classic delusional thinking. They still believe that tinkering with the behavior here and there will be sufficient to 'qualify' themselves in the judgment. It's tantamount to frantically trying to fix a broken fuel pump on an engine block that has been torn out of the car itself. Jesus Christ is our only hope of ever reparing the sin problem we are faced with, and no amount of behavioral modifications will make a bit of difference. If our works are in any way presented as influencing Christ or securing our salvation, that is a minimizing and diminishment of Christ's death on the cross and totally negating any need for His righteousness to stand in place of our own in the judgment.


I cannot believe there are still Adventists who insist on clinging to the notion that our salvation is in any way endangered or in question by a the pre-advent judgment. What corrupt dogma.


OUR VERDICT HAS BEEN PRONOUNCED INNOCENT BY VIRTUE OF THE MERITS OF CHRIST ON OUR BEHALF.

It is not our actions, behaviours or works under discussion here. It is Christ Himself, our Advocate and Intercessor, who stands in our place. The saints do not come under the condemnation of the judgment.


The rest of Christianity sings IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU, JESUS! in thier praise songs, while TSDA's drone on with thier refrain IT'S ALL ABOUT ME JESUS!

So when you say "fully forgiven" I assume you mean that there were sins not confessed or repented of in that person's life? If so, Christ will know and understand that.

I would love to know when and how the concept of the Catholic confessional made it's way into Adventism? This idea that every specific sin that is not confessed or overcome will disqualify the individual from eternal life? I guess the recording angel must be up there in the sky literally erasing the names of people out of a literal book whenever they sin and re-writing them back in when they confess, erasing them when they sin, re-writing them back when they confess, and on and on about 10,000 times a day for each person on the planet? Ah yes, yo-yo salvation: Lost and saved countless times a day, and we can only hope to die when we are in the re-writing phase of the process. Sound like good news to anyone?


What a travesty of the Gospel! What discouraging trash theology!

Yes, absolutely! But that doesn't mean we can become slack in repenting and confessing of our sins.

And here we go again. ITS ALL ABOUT ME, JESUS! EVERYBODY sing along!

That subtle implication of fear and dread, implying that if we are not DOING something to 'maintain' our salvation we can lose it.

Righteous by faith in Christ alone indeed.

Righteousness is not a destination, it is a journey, a life devoted to Christ, accepting His free gift of grace, and following His moral law.

This has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Righteousness is a journey? Christ is our Righteousness. He has already reached the destination for us.


Do you realize you have just made righteousness something we work towards, contigent upon our 'keeping' of the moral law in complete violation of the writings of the apostle Paul? Of course you do, because Adventism has an understanding of salvation more akin to Rome than anything Luther and the reformers advocated.


Christ has justified, sanctified and sealed us with the Holy Spirit, a deposit gauranteeing our Heavenly inheritance!


He has kept the law perfectly on our behalf because we are incapable of doing so as fallen, sinful human beings. His righteousness and perfect life stands as a substitute for our own.

Christ is our only hope for salvation, not works,

More lip service, but the eal understanding shines through if you dig deep enough.

but that doesn't give us license to willfully sin or live as we please -

And here it is, more process theology...

it is the will of the Father that must yielded to. To us, grace is not a one-time good deal; that after baptism we are forever "saved". God gave us freedom of choice; we can choose to follow Him or we can choose to follow Satan. This is a daily choice (1 Cor 15:31) we make that God will not interfere with, else we don't really have freedom of choice. One who is righteous has the ability to turn from righteousness and fall into iniquity (this is reflected in Eze 18:24, Isaiah 29:13, Titus 3:8, Luke 22:32, Hebrews 6:15, Hebrews 12:15, 2 Timothy 2:3, 2 Thess. 1:4, and Matt 7:22, 23 to name a few). Therefore we must be diligent to stay on the straight path (Matt 7:14) which leads to eternal life.

In thier efforts to avoid once saved always saved, many have gone to the other extreme, making our salvation conditional on countless factors, conditions, circumstances and qualifications.


By all means, let us keep proferring this type of justification by sanctification nonsense and we will continue to see a steady flood of members filing out the back door of the church.


Nope, nothing wrong here, we're doin' just fine! Who needs reform, right?

 

[Jimlarmore]

NightEternal,

How do you reconcile the verses in the Bible that calls for man to confess and repent if it's not a necessary step in the plan of salvation? There's no me focus in that, only a conscious decision which is necessary to be saved. I believe in righteousness by faith but I also believe God gave each of us a free will to choose which path we can travel. That puts us ( mankind ) intimately involved in the plan of salvation and each of us has a part to play in our salvation. I was tempted by your philosophy once until I read what the whole Bible says on this subject. Christ indeed paid all for our salvation but He also says " I stand at the door and knock" , Christ never forces us but gently pleads for us to choose Him and His salvation. We must choose to let Him change our lives. This must happen daily. You can call that works if you want but the Bible gives these truths to us as a guide line to eternal life. What you have accepted is a deception that will lead you into a license to sin with impunity. With no confession or repentence? That is a sure fire recipe for eternal death.

God Bless you
Jim Larmore

 

[NightEternal]

Quote by Jimlarmore: NightEternal,

How do you reconcile the verses in the Bible that calls for man to confess and repent if it's not a necessary step in the plan of salvation?

Confession and repentance is necessary for our spiritual growth and a closer relationship with Christ. We are not justified by our confession or repentance any more than we are justified by keeping the moral law. These are mere outworkings of the soul that has been saved.

Salvation is an accomplished fact, something that is secured apart from anything we do.

I believe in righteousness by faith but I also believe God gave each of us a free will to choose which path we can travel.

And once we have made that choice, our destiny is sealed. Someone who has truly accepted Christ as thier righteousness by faith alone is ideally committed to that path and that choice.

That puts us ( mankind ) intimately involved in the plan of salvation and each of us has a part to play in our salvation.

No, I categorically reject this statement.

Christ plus nothing equals salvation. No matter how much the TSDA's try to manipulate and tamper with this formula, it will always stand as is.

I was tempted by your philosophy once until I read what the whole Bible says on this subject.

What you mean is you once felt compelled to embrace the pure theology of salvation as outlined by Paul and the Reformers, but you sold it out for convoluted, confused SDA dogma.

How sad.

Christ indeed paid all for our salvation but He also says " I stand at the door and knock" . We must choose to let Him change our lives.

And what does this at all have to do with our salvation? Why do TSDAs insist on making our spiritual growth and maturity salvational?

I will tell you how. A fundamantal Catholic understanding of sanctification, whereby sanctification is not an accomplished fact but a process whereby we strive towards a saved condition.

This must happen daily. You can call that works if you want, but the Bible gives it too us as a guide line to eternal life.

Certainly these are works and we are commanded by the Scriptures to manifest the fruits of the spirit in our lives. We were created for good works.

These works, however, are a love respose to the fact that we are saved, not a means to an end for salvation.

The 'guideline' to eternal life is accepting Christ as your Savior. Period.

What you have accepted is a deception that will lead you into a license to sin with impunity.

Oh, not this again! Why does this ridiculous charge keeps making an appearance? I have been an advocate of the Reformation gospel for over 20 years and I do not 'sin with impunity', so let's quit with the judging and speculating on the lifestyle of others, shall we?

Yes, I trust in Christ alone as my surety and righteousness, so I must be out picking up prostitutes, watching porn, smoking crack and slamming back tequila shooters, right?

COME ON already! Enough!

With no confession or repentence? That is a sure fire recipe for eternal death.

More fear-mongering and attempted psychological spiritual manipulation. Typical TSDA tactic used to bend others to thier doctrinal will. A prime example of the way cults operate in thier brainwashing techniques.

Nope, not going to work with me. Try someone else.

 

[Jon0388g]

What exactly is this? Some of my questions: For the Christian, what happens if he's not fully forgiven by the time of his death? How does he receive full forgiveness? Does he have assurance of this in this life? There may be other queries depending on the responses. Thanks in advance for any information.

An excellent explanation by Palehorse, although just a bit to add:

According to the vision of Daniel, a judgment is set before the Second Advent of Christ:

"I kept looking, until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat.....thousands upon thousands were attending Him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; judgment was set, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9-10

This judgment involves those who are professed believers, since the Book of Life determines who is saved:

"...and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life..." Daniel 12:1

This in a nutshell is evidence for the pre-Advent judgment. The details on its investigative nature, the type-antitype nature from the earthly sanctuary, were all adequately explained by Palehorse!

Hope this helps,

Jon

 

[Jon0388g]

Quote by Jimlarmore: NightEternal,

How do you reconcile the verses in the Bible that calls for man to confess and repent if it's not a necessary step in the plan of salvation?

Confession and repentance is necessary for our spiritual growth and a closer relationship with Christ. We are not justified by our confession or repentance any more than we are justified by keeping the moral law. These are mere outworkings of the soul that has been saved.

Salvation is an accomplished fact, something that is secured apart from anything we do.


I believe in righteousness by faith but I also believe God gave each of us a free will to choose which path we can travel.


And once we have made that choice, our destiny is sealed. Someone who has truly accepted Christ as thier righteousness by faith alone is ideally committed to that path and that choice.

That puts us ( mankind ) intimately involved in the plan of salvation and each of us has a part to play in our salvation.

No, I categorically reject this statement.

Christ plus nothing equals salvation. No matter how much the TSDA's try to manipulate and tamper with this formula, it will always stand as is.

I was tempted by your philosophy once until I read what the whole Bible says on this subject.

What you mean is you once felt compelled to embrace the pure theology of salvation as outlined by Paul and the Reformers, but you sold it out for convoluted, confused SDA dogma.

How sad.

Christ indeed paid all for our salvation but He also says " I stand at the door and knock" . We must choose to let Him change our lives.

And what does this at all have to do with our salvation? Why do TSDAs insist on making our spiritual growth and maturity salvational?

I will tell you how. A fundamantal Catholic understanding of sanctification, whereby sanctification is not an accomplished fact but a process whereby we strive towards a saved condition.

This must happen daily. You can call that works if you want, but the Bible gives it too us as a guide line to eternal life.

Certainly these are works and we are commanded by the Scriptures to manifest the fruits of the spirit in our lives. We were created for good works.

These works, however, are a love respose to the fact that we are saved, not a means to an end for salvation.

The 'guideline' to eternal life is accepting Christ as your Savior. Period.

What you have accepted is a deception that will lead you into a license to sin with impunity.

Oh, not this again! Why does this ridiculous charge keeps making an appearance? I have been an advocate of the Reformation gospel for over 20 years and I do not 'sin with impunity', so let's quit with the judging and speculating on the lifestyle of others, shall we?

Yes, I trust in Christ alone as my surety and righteousness, so I must be out picking up prostitutes, watching porn, smoking crack and slamming back tequila shooters, right?

COME ON already! Enough!

With no confession or repentence? That is a sure fire recipe for eternal death.

More fear-mongering and attempted psychological spiritual manipulation. Typical TSDA tactic used to bend others to thier doctrinal will. A prime example of the way cults operate in thier brainwashing techniques.

Nope, not going to work with me. Try someone else.

What a load of arrogant, self-exalting folly. Nighteternal, you need to revise how you address people you do not know.

I've noticed how you've stormed into this forum, waving and hollering like an out of control toddler. How about you cease the immature temper tantrums and compose your messaging in a more calm and courteous manner?

One of the fruits of the Spirit is kindness, you do realise.


In love,
Jon

 

[NightEternal]

Ha!!!

Considering the many people TSDA's have ruined in the church with thier spiritual manipulation and fear-mongering, I am letting the fundamentalists off lightly!

Come and talk to me about kindness when you read how those at the Revival Sermons and the Great Controversy website malign and trash Evangelical, Progressive and Liberal Adventists. Come and talk to me about kindness when you see the devastation that the right-wing causes in Adventism with thier EGW bludgeoning and gleeful destruction of assurance of salvation. Come and talk to me about kindness when you have looked in the pleading faces of impressionable, gullible new converts in the SDA church who are targeted by the Adventist Al Qaeda or legalistic independent ministries and offshoots and spiritually abused to the nth degree. Come and talk to me about kindness when you see innocent people in the church judged and condemned by the 'standards police' because of what they wear, watch, listen to, or eat. Come and talk to me about kindness when you see people discouraged and driven away from the church by heretical perfectionism.

Was Paul calm and controlled when he confronted the circumcision party and thier legalistic burdening of those who did not know better? Not even close.

Neither will the ultra-conservative SDA Pharisee party be spared my wrath.

Do you conservatives even have a clue? Why not go on the former Adventist forum and have a look at some of the rotten fruit your corrupt, anti-gospel spew is creating?

In the meantime, save your patronizing attempts at trying to discipline me as if I were were child. Your condescending words will not take attention away from the fact that what I type is true and the issues and the need for reform in the SDA church will no longer be ignored.