The judgment does not cause anyone to go from being lost to saved... and it does not cause anyone who is saved to be become lost. The judgment is the Matt 7 action that Christ describes as that of looking at the tree. "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Looking at the tree does not change the tree.
However the Bible shows that OSAS is a false doctrine in places like MAtthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and in Romans 11.
Sda is much like the Church of Rome, still stuck under Law, and trying to be an OT church, but we now have the New Covenant of Grace!
He is assuming that actual saved persons are getting "broken off"You did not post the verses from Matthew 16 or from Romans 11.
I do not see anything in either production that would negate OSAS.
You want and asked for us to speak to your Bible verse but you are not posting those verses.
Remember....…..assumption is not Bible exegesis!
I prefer to stay with the topic of the thread - and to continue pointing out what the Bible says - even if someone does not want to read that part of the Bible.
I read that text (Daniel 7:10), where does that verse say 'sinless beings'. May I ask what translation your reading from?Daniel 7 (which apparently you are not reading) says that in the courtroom are the "myriads and myriads" of sinless beings. And that "the court sat and the books were opened"..
Christians appear before the judgment seat of Christ, not what he is describing!Hello Bob.
You said.
I read that text (Daniel 7:10), where does that verse say 'sinless beings'. May I ask what translation your reading from?
Law + grace = FALSE Doctrine.
What Law are we to keep than? Which of the 489 parts of it?You have it backwards and represented incorrectly.
It is:
God's Grace (through faith) to keep God's law in loving obedience.
In other words
Saved to Serve.
ALL saved stand before Jesus, give an account of our lives after salvation to Him, for the purpose of eternal rewards or losses, NONE lose eternal life there!
If you do not know this, you are not what you claim to be.What Law are we to keep than?
The scripture (KJB) acknowledges no such number, and neither do I.Which of the 489 parts of it?
Amazing that Sda just cannot see past the false doctrines of their prophetess!
If you choose to do that, would you still be saved or not?
I was just saying that you have NO opinions on scripture other than what EW said!
Amazing that Sda just cannot see past the false doctrines of their prophetess!
The Bible [KJB] doctrine is still called the Investigative Judgment by true Seventh-day Adventists:
The saints do not get to escape judgment, though they have an Advocate, Jesus Christ the Righteous:
Psalms 7:11 KJB - God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day.
Psalms 37:33 KJB - The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.
Ecclesiastes 3:17 KJB - I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 KJB - For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.
The record books in Heaven already kindly posted online - COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word
The investigative judgment is found in type and in prophecy throughout the whole of scripture [KJB]:
In Genesis 2 & 3, we see Eve being deceived into sin, though Adam was warned, and He having warned her, and Adam following in sin, and then "they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day", and God ['Jesus'] investigates, inquiring and asking questions [Genesis 3:9-19; not that God doesn't know, but it is for the benefit of the angels and Adam/Eve and us], having already warned man of the sentence for sin [Genesis 2:17], and then God carries out sentence, but also gives hope [Genesis 3:15].
In Genesis 4, we see Cain and Abel, which both claimed to worship God, yet one was a son of that wicked one, satan. When Abel was killed by Cain, God came down and asked/inquired/investigated of Cain, before sentence was carried out.
In Genesis 6-9, we see that the world was becoming wicked, and while many claimed to follow God, they were already inter-marrying with the children of Cain. God looks upon the world in investigation, before execution of Judgment by the Flood.
In Genesis 10-11, we see that the people again rebelled, and God came down to see and look and investigate, before the execution of Judgment in the separation of the languages.
In Genesis 17-19, we see that God had delivered the people of Lot and Sodom, and yet Sodom did not truly repent, and went further in rebellion, and God came down to see/investigate/judge before execution of Judgment. ...etc...
In Leviticus 16 & 23, we see that Israel, and all that claimed to follow God, was to enter into the time of the typical Day of Atonement, wherein the Priest bore into the Sanctuary, upon the Breast plate of Judgment the people, represented by the stones. Anyone found not to be in harmony with God, in true repentance, was to be cut off at the end of it.
In 1 Kings 3, we see Solomon [type of Christ] having an investigation between two persons [women] over a dead Child [Christ], and a living Child [Christ] to see who really loved the Child. Solomon investigates in a judgment setting upon His throne, and gives a test, and a sentence testing the loyalty of the True mother [true Church, worshippers] and the corruption of heart of the false mother [false church, worshippers].
In Ezra 2, we see an investigative judgment in type:
Ezra 2:61 KJB - And of the children of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai; which took a wife of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite, and was called after their name:
Ezra 2:62 KJB - These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.
Ezra 2:63 KJB - And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
All of those priests coming back from the captivity of Babylon, had to be able to shew themselves by lineage, and had to pass through an investigation, to continue in their role as priests of God. Christians are kings and priests, a royal priesthood, and we have come out of the captivity. This is seen throughout the whole of scripture [KJB]:
The Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation reveal in type and in Prophecy this great end-time Investigative Judgment, and in Exodus 28:15,29,30 KJB we see the breastplate upon the Highpriest, is called “the breastplate of judgment”.
In Daniel 7, we see God the Father sitting in judgment, with the books of records being opened, and the angels ministering and searching the records, with Jesus present.
In Daniel 12, we see Michael/Jesus standing up, after the searching of the record books of Heaven, and the book of Lifeof the Lamb have been searched and read
In Zechariah 3, we see an investigative judgment, taking place in the Most Holy Place on the day of atonement, with Joshua the High priest.
In Malachi 3, we see God sitting as a refiner, in judgment over his children.
In the Gospels, Jesus himself came to see/investigate/judge Israel, before the execution of Judgment.
In the Gospels, the disciples themselves were sifted, and we can even see this futher with Peter in the courtyard of the Highpriest, with Jesus in the upper room, and so on.
In Matthew 18, we see God taking account of his servants, who had at one point received forgiveness, but later had it revoked.
In Romans 2:13-16, we read of the future judgment of all men, including their secrets by Jesus
In 2 Corinthians 5:10, we read of all having to appear before the judgment seat of Christ
In Hebrews 9, we see this judgment was to begin with the dead, in the time of judgment.
In 1 Peter 4, we see that God, at the time of Peter, was “ready” to judge, and would begin at the time specified in Daniel and in Leviticus 16 & 23.
In Jude 1:15, we read of Jesus second advent to render and to “execute judgment” that was determined beforehand in the investigation.
In Revelation 3:10, 17:12, we see a specific testing of the living professing, that comes after the dead professed [Hebrews 9:27]
In Revelation 11, we see that the very Church, the Temple of God, was to be measured, sometime after the 1,260 years of Daniel.
In Revelation 14, we see the very first Angel's message declare that the time of judgment had begun, and was going forward while the Everlasting Gospel was still being preached.
… and so on.
Notice, that when the Ancient of Days [the person of the Father] sat, multiple thrones were also placed, wherein the angels [which 10,000 etc surrounded Him] also sat, and books were opened. This judgment is for the angels to look into, because they cannot read the human heart as God can, and thus they need to see for themselves that God's judgments were right on who is to be let into a place without sin [Heaven]. The timing of the sequence in Daniel 7 [as shown in context and in chiastic structure, etc] reveals that this phase of judgment takes place after the rise of Rome and its divisions, and before the second advent, and the kingdom come. It is unbreakable in its order. The judgment therein is even taking place while the little horn is still blaspheming on earth, before it is destroyed, before the number of the kingdom of Heaven is made up.
In Daniel 7 is in 4 main parts.
Daniel 7:1-14 KJB the vision of Daniel
Daniel 7:15-18 KJB the super summary of the whole vision by Gabriel [even vss 17,18]
Daniel 7:19-22 KJB Daniel asking about it again, and a specific
Daniel 7:23-28 KJB Gabriel, once more going over the whole in more detail
Thus Daniel, Gabriel, Daniel, Gabriel. Each portion intimately tied to the other, so that the timing thereof cannot be broken between each section.
Daniel 7:22 KJB - Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Until [refers to the previous time portion in earlier verse, the leading up to 1844, thus the 1,260 years, 538-1798]
Ancient of Days came, and did sit [refers to 1844 until the close of probation]
judgment was given to the saints of the most High [refers to 1,000 years, see Rev 20:4, "given unto", see also Paul, know ye not that the saints will judge angels [fallen], the world [lost].]
and the time came [end of the 1,000 years, see Rev. 20, Isaiah 24, etc] that the saints posesses the kingdom [being New Heaven and New Earth]
In Ezekiel 1-9, shows the same, wherein a investigative judgment goes forward, and then execution of that judgment takes place after, beginning with the elders of the temple/sanctuary on down to the least.
A very important text to consider:
Proverbs 28:5 KJB - Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Perhaps it is the word "Investigative" that is the issue with so many, since they cannot seem to find it in the KJB, but perhaps if they might look in the many other English translations to which they themselves trust in:
For instance, Daniel 9:10 - Daniel 7:10 - Bible Gateway -
[MSG] - “As I was watching all this, “Thrones were set in place and The Old One sat down. His robes were white as snow, his hair was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, its wheels blazing. A river of fire poured out of the throne. Thousands upon thousands served him, tens of thousands attended him. The courtroom was called to order, and the books were opened.
[NOG] - "A river of fire flowed. It came from him. Thousands and thousands served him. Ten thousand times ten thousand were stationed in front of him. The court convened, and the books were opened."
[ISV] - "A river of fire flowed out from before him. Thousands upon thousands were serving him, with millions upon millions waiting before him. The court sat in judgment, and record books were unsealed."
[GNT] - "and a stream of fire was pouring out from it. There were many thousands of people there to serve him, and millions of people stood before him. The court began its session, and the books were opened."
etc ...
God gave us a type of how God operates in Heaven:
Deuteronomy 13:14 KJB - Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
Deuteronomy 13:14 - Deuteronomy 13:14 - Bible Gateway
[AMP] - "then you shall investigate and search out [witnesses] and ask thorough questions. If it is true and the matter is established that this loathsome thing has been done among you,"
[CSB] - "you are to inquire, investigate, and interrogate thoroughly. If the report turns out to be true that this detestable act has been done among you,"
[HCSB] - "you are to inquire, investigate, and interrogate thoroughly. If the report turns out to be true that this detestable thing has happened among you,"
etc., etc. ...
Deuteronomy 19:18 KJB - And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
Deuteronomy 19:18 - Deuteronomy 19:18 - Bible Gateway
[AMP] - "The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness, and he has accused his brother falsely,"
[CSB] - "The judges are to make a careful investigation, and if the witness turns out to be a liar who has falsely accused his brother,"
[CJB] - "The judges are to investigate carefully. If they find that the witness is lying and has given false testimony against his brother,"
[HCSB] - "The judges are to make a careful investigation, and if the witness turns out to be a liar who has falsely accused his brother,"
etc, etc ...
Even, at least one, use the exact word:
[OJB] - "thought it expedient also, having done an iyun (investigative research), accurately and carefully being meayen (engaged in research) in every source and making a medakdeke (pain-stakingly thorough) investigation of every aspect from HaReshit (the Beginning), to write for you and to mesader (arrange, place in succession) an orderly account, most noble Theophilus,"
What will these people say, when God asks them why they did not believe, and why they taught contrary to His word?
Psalms 9:12 KJB - When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.
God is already making inquisition, an investigation, for blood, upon all those of the past who have professed His name, and will He find "blood" on their garments, on their hands, will He find the blood of others upon them? Soon, God will turn from those who have died in profession to those living ...
He wants to keep saying that "my" 1689 Baptist Confession of faith supports his views, !
But his view on what actually it means now under the NC to keep the Sabbath agrees with me, not you!
Jesus accomplished in the new covenant what the old covenant was not adequate to do – defeat sin.
The old covenant proved that sin was more powerful than the law.
I would say in responce to your long post that the Bible teaches that Christ's atonement on the cross has perfected (past tense)
You seem to be desiring a need for Bible study and exegesis as you keep telling us to Read the Bible.
Wonderful. Lets do just that Bob.
You Posted 1 John 2:2...……..
"Christ is the atoning SACRIFICE for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world".
First of all, you should have included verse #1 as it validates that Jesus Christ is the character in view. That is called CONTEXUAL exegesis.
ESV Study Bible says Hilasmos "here means 'a sacrifice that bears God's wrath and turns it to favor" which is "also the meaning of the English word propitiation."
The term propitiation, in definition and application, is most notably a biblical and theological word. It is a translation of hilasmos, which means “appeasement,” or “satisfaction.” Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross satisfied the demands of God’s justice, thus appeasing His holy wrath against believers’ sins.
Reformed people argue that if Christ’s death actually paid for the sins of every person who ever lived, then there is no penalty left for anyone to pay, and it necessarily follows that all people will be saved, without exception.
Sources: 1 John 2:1-6 Commentary | Precept Austin
YES, Leviticus 16 is all about Jesus and His work on the cross. Leviticus 16 is about the Day of Atonement. Under the Old Testament Law, the Israelites were to bring two goats to the temple on the Day of Atonement. These goats would serve two distinct purposes.
The first goat served as the people’s propitiation, which meant that the goat would die as the only just penalty for the sin of Israel. The Law declares that sin must be atoned for through the shedding of blood. God was gracious enough that He allowed the Israelites to kill a goat instead of He killing them.
Jesus accomplished in the new covenant what the old covenant was not adequate to do – defeat sin.
The old covenant proved that sin was more powerful than the law. As soon as the law in the old covenant said, “Thou shalt not…” mankind could not resist temptation and the power of sin.
Thus, Israel ultimately broke the covenant. Sin overpowered mankind, but Jesus overpowered sin. Israel was enslaved to sin, just as they had been enslaved to Egypt hundreds of years earlier. Just as Moses (who was given the written old covenant) was the savior for Israel from captivity in Egypt; now Jesus (who was mediator of new covenant) was the Savour for Israel (and all people) from captivity to sin.
The law’s purpose was to expose sin (old covenant). Jesus purpose was to defeat sin (new covenant).
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