Investigative Judgment Online Debate: http://www.1844issues.blogspot.com/

[dragNdrop]

1844 Issues

 

[VictorC]

external debate

We already have a number of debates on CF, wherein we have resolved the 1844/IJ issue:

SDA"s,1884 and Jesus the not the high priest until then?
Is this a SDA doctrine?
Seventh-day Adventists say Jesus started the day of atonement in 1844.

Help yourself. 1844 was a non-event. The IJ was the replacement for the Shut Door, which Ellen White claimed was inspired. Neither doctrine was.

 

[dragNdrop]

1844 Investigative Judgment Issues : 1844 Investigative Judgment Issues

On that site is a thorough technical evidence against the 1844 Message Hoax. Not just normal baseless SDA attacks

 

[Joe67]

1844 Investigative Judgment Issues : 1844 Investigative Judgment Issues

On that site is a thorough technical evidence against the 1844 Message Hoax. Not just normal baseless SDA attacks

dNd,

Those who rejected Jesus had technical evidence against him.

Those who washed their hands over him had a technical basis for this act.

Joe

 

[dragNdrop]

@Joey


What technical evidence did they have against Jesus ? Don't lie !

I mean everything on that site is based on factual details not mere bubbling.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

How fascinating that formers would feel the need to divide themselves as to who has the best criticism. Definitely not my proudest day as a former.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

@Joey


What technical evidence did they have against Jesus ? Don't lie !

I mean everything on that site is based on factual details not mere bubbling.

dNd,

Are you sure you are not familiar with the record in the NT concerning things that the people and the leaders said concerning Jesus whereby they reasoned that he could not be the promised Messiah?

If you are not aware of these reasonings, let me know and I will purpose to quote a few for you.

I am interested to read a few of your own convictions from Scripture that you type in with your own fingers, but not a multitude, just a few at a time.

Joe

 

[Joe67]

How fascinating that formers would feel the need to divide themselves as to who has the best criticism. Definitely not my proudest day as a former.

BFA

BFA,

I am a former only in the technical membership question. I believe that the SdA movement was called into existence, out of the God given advent message through William Miller. I believe that Hiram Edson's vision in the cornfield is the elemental base (form) of understanding the significance of the 3rd angel's message from Scripture and being prepared to hear the other angel of Revelation 18 calling us out of Babylon. If we think that we are not in Babylon, then the calling out, when it comes to us personally, will be foolishness to us.

It is given unto man to die once, after that the judgment. The judgment of God through Jesus, our Lord, the man that the Father raised from the dead is still a necessary experience in the work of Jesus saving his people from their sins, while he is also the God who justifies all nations/families. Hebrews 12 and 13 is how Jesus finishes our faith in preparation for priestly ministry under his high priesthood. Jesus is also the author of our faith. Authorship and finisher, a two-edged sword of truth that cuts both ways, coming out of his mouth.

He justifies freely by his blood, and sanctifies freely by his blood. Those who are justified and sanctified will be perfected through suffering, and will not draw back unto perdition. Let us go unto Him outside the camp, when we are called unto his priesthood. We cannot call ourselves to the priesthood ministry, our high calling in Christ Jesus. Those that he foreknew, he calls. Those who he calls he justifies. Those that he justifies, he glorifies.

If we suffer with him, we will be glorified with him.

Joe

 

[Adventtruth]

I believe that the SdA movement was called into existence, out of the God given advent message through William Miller. I believe that Hiram Edson's vision in the cornfield is the elemental base (form) of understanding the significance of the 3rd angel's message from Scripture and being prepared to hear the other angel of Revelation 18 calling us out of Babylon.

And why do you believe that?

AT

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA,

I am a former only in the technical membership question. I believe that the SdA movement was called into existence, out of the God given advent message through William Miller. I believe that Hiram Edson's vision in the cornfield is the elemental base (form) of understanding the significance of the 3rd angel's message from Scripture and being prepared to hear the other angel of Revelation 18 calling us out of Babylon. If we think that we are not in Babylon, then the calling out, when it comes to us personally, will be foolishness to us.

It is given unto man to die once, after that the judgment. The judgment of God through Jesus, our Lord, the man that the Father raised from the dead is still a necessary experience in the work of Jesus saving his people from their sins, while he is also the God who justifies all nations/families. Hebrews 12 and 13 is how Jesus finishes our faith in preparation for priestly ministry under his high priesthood. Jesus is also the author of our faith. Authorship and finisher, a two-edged sword of truth that cuts both ways, coming out of his mouth.

He justifies freely by his blood, and sanctifies freely by his blood. Those who are justified and sanctified will be perfected through suffering, and will not draw back unto perdition. Let us go unto Him outside the camp, when we are called unto his priesthood. We cannot call ourselves to the priesthood ministry, our high calling in Christ Jesus. Those that he foreknew, he calls. Those who he calls he justifies. Those that he justifies, he glorifies.

If we suffer with him, we will be glorified with him.

Joe

I appreciate it when you refer to your conclusions as beliefs rather than facts. Thanks for that.

Do believers come into judgment?

Although we agree that Jesus Christ is our priest, do we also agree that He ever lives to intercede for us?

On a more personal level, if you've adopted all of the teachings of the SDA denomination, why did you decide that membership was not the right option for you? This question may be a bit too personal. If so, you need not answer it. I ask only because it may help me better understand you and your posts.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

I appreciate it when you refer to your conclusions as beliefs rather than facts. Thanks for that.

Do believers come into judgment?

Although we agree that Jesus Christ is our priest, do we also agree that He ever lives to intercede for us?

On a more personal level, if you've adopted all of the teachings of the SDA denomination, why did you decide that membership was not the right option for you? This question may be a bit too personal. If so, you need not answer it. I ask only because it may help me better understand you and your posts.

BFA

BFA,

To think of the spiritual things of God and Christ as facts is to experience hardness of heart once we have been removed from the breast.

Yes, our high priest ever lives to intercede for us, yet the accuser of the brethren, accusing through Moses, will not give up contending over us even unto the judgment. Then the angel of the Lord will say, "The Lord rebuke you, O Satan, is not this a brand plucked from the burning." Then he will tell those who are standing by to give us a change of raiment. Satan and his angels will flee from the judgment hall and return to earth in great wrath. The law works wrath. Legalism will only increase after the judgment and Satan is cast down/flees.

I joined the SdA church at 12 years of age, through the power of thought in the Daniel and Revelation meetings held by E.J. Falkenberg. I was in the 8th grade and had just studied for a test on the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration of Independence when the meeting on Daniel and Revelation began. So the application to world history was very interesting. The Lord touched my childish imagination and moved me to give up the joy of Saturday sports (48 weeks out of 52 in central California) for the joy of worshiping the God of Daniel. That was about all in can remember for that time period. I don't recall having any personal thoughts concerning our Lord Jesus.

Then puberty came with the power of the flesh to hide the face of God from our emotions and by the age of 16 the Lord seemed far away in a place called heaven. I went to academy 2 years, then to PUC in Angwin,CA.

Then an evangelist named Stanley Harris came to our SdA world. I was 21 and planning to please my flesh more fully, but it seemed good to go to the meetings and socialize. Elder Harris preached about the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins and the power of Jesus' blood to justify us with God. The love of God in Jesus broke me down and gave me repentance for my youthful follies. I finished PUC the next year.

The conference sent me a letter calling me to be a minister via a year stint at Andrews. I went to Andrews for 3 months and felt that the things being taught were not for me and withdrew. I called the conference and resigned my call. Four years later my wife and I married and we were steady church members for several years. When the issue of justification by faith without works first burst on the scene of SdAs in the 70's we were participants in this message and the issue became so traumatic in our small area that the only way to make peace was to withdraw or deny the principle of the gospel. Where we live the conference was much more against the teaching of the free gift of justification than it appears it is in some places at this present time. My wife went to SdA schools totally. Most of her immediate family are still active in the church.

When I was baptized again at the age of 21 there were very few questions asked. I never knew there were 20+ fundamental beliefs. The questions were concerning repentance for sin, faith in the blood of Jesus, willingness to obey the commandments. Stanley Harris was a highly evangelical preacher.

If the local church where we live could accept as much justification by faith as King David testified in the Psalms and the Lord promises of the sure mercies to him and his son, it would be a wonderful beginning of restoration. The "sure mercies of David" is justification by faith for those who still worship under the law. That's why Paul said that he was under the law to those who were under the law, 1Cor 9:20, that he might save some.

The disciples witnessed that the resurrected Jesus was a fulfillment of what God had promised through both Abraham and David; before Sinai and after Sinai. I have worshiped God through his promises to David, now I worship through the covenant promises to Abraham as well, as they are both given unto us in Jesus our Lord.

Joe

 

[dragNdrop]

Joey. First sorry for my harsher language on my peevious post.

The point I am making is that there is a strong case against the 1844 Hoax. This is not technicalities and semantics.

When I used the word 'technical', I meant it's a factual analysis of fascts and not just mumbling and rumblings we normally see on the net.

Spare me the Jesus tecechnicalities. It's not worth it and is besides the point.

 

[Avonia]

When I used the word 'technical', I meant it's a factual analysis of fascts and not just mumbling and rumblings we normally see on the net.

DragNDrop, I'm guessing there are several of your most treasured beliefs I could pick apart that would be much more disturbing to you than picking apart the investigative judgment is to SDAs.

Why would either of us want to do that?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA,

To think of the spiritual things of God and Christ as facts is to experience hardness of heart once we have been removed from the breast.

Yes, our high priest ever lives to intercede for us, yet the accuser of the brethren, accusing through Moses, will not give up contending over us even unto the judgment. Then the angel of the Lord will say, "The Lord rebuke you, O Satan, is not this a brand plucked from the burning." Then he will tell those who are standing by to give us a change of raiment. Satan and his angels will flee from the judgment hall and return to earth in great wrath. The law works wrath. Legalism will only increase after the judgment and Satan is cast down/flees.

I joined the SdA church at 12 years of age, through the power of thought in the Daniel and Revelation meetings held by E.J. Falkenberg. I was in the 8th grade and had just studied for a test on the U.S. Constitution and the Declaration of Independence when the meeting on Daniel and Revelation began. So the application to world history was very interesting. The Lord touched my childish imagination and moved me to give up the joy of Saturday sports (48 weeks out of 52 in central California) for the joy of worshiping the God of Daniel. That was about all in can remember for that time period. I don't recall having any personal thoughts concerning our Lord Jesus.

Then puberty came with the power of the flesh to hide the face of God from our emotions and by the age of 16 the Lord seemed far away in a place called heaven. I went to academy 2 years, then to PUC in Angwin,CA.

Then an evangelist named Stanley Harris came to our SdA world. I was 21 and planning to please my flesh more fully, but it seemed good to go to the meetings and socialize. Elder Harris preached about the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins and the power of Jesus' blood to justify us with God. The love of God in Jesus broke me down and gave me repentance for my youthful follies. I finished PUC the next year.

The conference sent me a letter calling me to be a minister via a year stint at Andrews. I went to Andrews for 3 months and felt that the things being taught were not for me and withdrew. I called the conference and resigned my call. Four years later my wife and I married and we were steady church members for several years. When the issue of justification by faith without works first burst on the scene of SdAs in the 70's we were participants in this message and the issue became so traumatic in our small area that the only way to make peace was to withdraw or deny the principle of the gospel. Where we live the conference was much more against the teaching of the free gift of justification than it appears it is in some places at this present time. My wife went to SdA schools totally. Most of her immediate family are still active in the church.

When I was baptized again at the age of 21 there were very few questions asked. I never knew there were 20+ fundamental beliefs. The questions were concerning repentance for sin, faith in the blood of Jesus, willingness to obey the commandments. Stanley Harris was a highly evangelical preacher.

If the local church where we live could accept as much justification by faith as King David testified in the Psalms and the Lord promises of the sure mercies to him and his son, it would be a wonderful beginning of restoration. The "sure mercies of David" is justification by faith for those who still worship under the law. That's why Paul said that he was under the law to those who were under the law, 1Cor 9:20, that he might save some.

The disciples witnessed that the resurrected Jesus was a fulfillment of what God had promised through both Abraham and David; before Sinai and after Sinai. I have worshiped God through his promises to David, now I worship through the covenant promises to Abraham as well, as they are both given unto us in Jesus our Lord.

Joe

Joe,

Thanks for sharing your story. It was very brave and I admire you for being so transparent.

I was a good SDA (at least on the outside) until well into my 30s. At that point, my brother-in-law left the SDA denomination. I began studying in earnest to try and demonstrate that SDAism had the truth. However, as I began reading the Bible through (each passage in its full context), I began to realize that there were passages I had never before read because they weren't listed in a Sabbath School quarterly. I began to realize that there were passages that I had read that took on a whole new meaning when read within the full context of the passage. As I read, I was not able to defend SDAism in the way that I had hoped. Through a long process, I have reached the point where I am today -- I now realize how much I do not know.

BFA

 

[Avonia]

I began to realize that there were passages that I had read that took on a whole new meaning when read within the full context of the passage.

If we are growing, this will always be the case.

Here's an interesting exercise. Hold the posture for a year that new truth is larger but inclusive of former truth - instead of deciding between the one and the other. To be successful at this, our "reductionist" must go on sabbatical for a bit.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

If we are growing, this will always be the case.

Here's an interesting exercise. Hold the posture for a year that new truth is larger but inclusive of former truth - instead of deciding between the one and the other. To be successful at this, our "reductionist" must go on sabbatical for a bit.

I still hold onto certain things that you may prefer I abandon. One could hardly suggest that I've abandoned all that I once believed.

OK--all sillyness aside--yours is good advice for all. Sometimes, a tension exists between two ideas that seem to be in conflict. I suspect that epiphanies result from living with the tension between two conflicting ideas. If I decide to negate one, I move headlong toward the other and then push my way toward a conclusion that is unbalanced.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

as the saying goes, the opposite of truth may not be error, but a more profound truth....

 

[Joe67]

If we are growing, this will always be the case.

Here's an interesting exercise. Hold the posture for a year that new truth is larger but inclusive of former truth - instead of deciding between the one and the other. To be successful at this, our "reductionist" must go on sabbatical for a bit.

Avonia,

"new truth is larger but inclusive of former truth." Like a family of elephants. Babies, adolescents, mothers and yes, even fathers. Parents are grown up babies at heart who lived through the discipline of adolescence.

This is the working dynamic truth of God to my heart and mind through the risen Jesus of Nazareth, a man annointed of God who went about doing good and healing those who were oppressed by the devil, who is now in the presence (judgment seat) of God at the right hand (defender) of power, interceding for me against the claims of Satan (accuser/prosecutor) against me.

Firstly, Jesus was sent from God, the Christ, the Son of the living God; Secondly, he grew up to be a man anointed of God.... and thirdly, he was raised from dead by God and the rest of the story is present truth.

The victory is through the swallowing.

Joe

 

[Joe67]

as the saying goes, the opposite of truth may not be error, but a more profound truth....

StormyOne,

Amen and amen.

That is why that sword coming out of his mouth has two opposing sharp edges.

One edge begins the cut. The other edge finishes the cut. Cutting both ways.

Joe

 

[Joe67]

I still hold onto certain things that you may prefer I abandon. One could hardly suggest that I've abandoned all that I once believed.

OK--all sillyness aside--yours is good advice for all. Sometimes, a tension exists between two ideas that seem to be in conflict. I suspect that epiphanies result from living with the tension between two conflicting ideas. If I decide to negate one, I move headlong toward the other and then push my way toward a conclusion that is unbalanced.

BFA

BFA,

"tension exists between two ideas that seem to be in conflict."

Amen and amen.

Joe