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Investigating An'ism/Long Post - Need Help

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Good King Edward VI

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Those of you who read my profile, recognize my handle, or know what my pic is all about may be very surprised to learn that I find the Anabaptist way to be a very attractive Christian tradition.

Allow me to elaborate a bit. Although I currently identify as an evangelical Anglican, I was raised in the Missionary Church, an NAE denomination, which nowadays is pretty much standard-issue evangelical Wesleyan-Holiness, but its historical roots lie in Anabaptism. In fact, when my grandfather was born into the church in 1907, it was know as the Mennonite Brethren in Christ Church, and a generation before, the Defenseless Mennonite Brethren. As late as my mother's girlhood (1940's/1950's), foot-washing was still practiced in the congregations, even those located in industrial, urban centers, such as Pontiac, Mich., where she (and I) was born and raised.

I suppose you could say it was my parents' generation (though I am always vociferous in emphasizing my parents were NOT boomers, but born during the war) that altered the denomination into what it is today. I am not complaining when I write that ... I am glad that I was raised in the Missionary Church. But the fact remains it is something completely different than it was just a half-century ago.

As an aside, on my father's side, there's a streak of German-Swiss and Bavarian (though we're overwhelmingly British), and those southern Germans were among the Anabaptists from the very start. So, Anabaptism is part of my religious and ethnic heritage. Currently, my wife and I are members of an evangelical parish of the United Methodist Church.

Yet I was raised in a contemporary American household, with a television set in every room, movie attendance strictly encouraged, public schooling (until it became so toxic I could no longer take it and ended up a graduate of Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Mich.), etc.

But I see the "cultural collapse of historic proportions" (Paul Weyrich) going on around me, and with a 2 1/2 year-old son to care for, the attractions of Anabaptism are growing. And it's not simply a "withdrawal reaction" - I am moderately well-informed on theology and find many, if not most, Anabaptist positions the most biblically consistent.

Here's the question. I admire the self-discipline and ecclesiastical heritage of the more conservative branches of Anabaptism (e.g., I've read quite a bit on the Conservative Mennonite Conference). But one of the elements of growing up in the Missionary Church that I've become very wary of is legalism: for instance, despite the fact that tobacco is not mentioned in the Bible, supposedly a rigorous exegesis and sound hermeneutic allows said denomination to prohibit members' use of said evil weed. On the other hand, despite clear warnings against gluttony (reading the word narrowly here), there's been more than one overweight clergyman (forget about laymen) I've met in my life. I can only see this as the grossest kind of legalism, a legalism which goes a long way towards eliminating the freedom and joy we're supposed to experience in Christ. How rampant would you say legalism among more conservative Anabaptist groups? Because this, for me, is an issue that most certainly could be a "deal-breaker", and I say that with regret. Truly, with regret.

I hope I did not offend anyone too terribly with this post. This is an honest question from a man who simply wants to serve his Lord and Savior with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Yours,
Jeff
 

yeshuaslavejeff

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you'll find joy, hope, and truth as you read bercot's book
how they 'turned the world upside down' . . .

it may also "pierce" your soul (or heart?), because the simple truth is
so devastating.

yet/but it is the only way to life; the only way to be set free; healed; saved..

rsvp email later, Yhvh allowing.
 
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visiting

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Jeff,

This is my first post on this forum, as I joined in order to give an answer to your inquiry:

How rampant would you say legalism among more conservative Anabaptist groups? Because this, for me, is an issue that most certainly could be a "deal-breaker", and I say that with regret. Truly, with regret.


I know what you mean. I'm a Methodist, living in Pennsylvania among various Anabaptist and Brethren groups which range from conservative to liberal, and I find things that I agree with and admire, but don't feel I could ever join any of the conservative churches that have the distinctive clothing, etc. Yet sometimes I've had enough of the worldliness in the mainstream church, and the conservative churches look attractive in contrast.

Anyway, I hear and read that comment of legalism about the conservative churches and I called an Old Order River Brethren friend for a response.

Her family is in a conservative church, with distinctive clothing, no TV, etc.

She believes it is having Jesus Christ as Savior that determines salvation and not trusting in clothing, etc. that gets a person into Heaven, but that some of the churches do have people that are legalistic.

She sees the ordinances of her church not as things to save them but that the ordinances protect them from the world. Also she thinks it would be difficult for a person to follow them unless they grew up with them.

From what I understand, each church has its own ordinances and one of the reasons there are so many of these little conservative churches is because when people disagree about ordinances, they break off to start another church. It is understood that if you join then you are agreeing to follow the ordinances of that chruch.

I would guess that one of the liberal Anabaptist or Brethren churches are more what you would feel more at home with.
 
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MrJim

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Jeff,

This is my first post on this forum, as I joined in order to give an answer to your inquiry:

How rampant would you say legalism among more conservative Anabaptist groups? Because this, for me, is an issue that most certainly could be a "deal-breaker", and I say that with regret. Truly, with regret.


I know what you mean. I'm a Methodist, living in Pennsylvania among various Anabaptist and Brethren groups which range from conservative to liberal, and I find things that I agree with and admire, but don't feel I could ever join any of the conservative churches that have the distinctive clothing, etc. Yet sometimes I've had enough of the worldliness in the mainstream church, and the conservative churches look attractive in contrast.

Anyway, I hear and read that comment of legalism about the conservative churches and I called an Old Order River Brethren friend for a response.

Her family is in a conservative church, with distinctive clothing, no TV, etc.

She believes it is having Jesus Christ as Savior that determines salvation and not trusting in clothing, etc. that gets a person into Heaven, but that some of the churches do have people that are legalistic.

She sees the ordinances of her church not as things to save them but that the ordinances protect them from the world. Also she thinks it would be difficult for a person to follow them unless they grew up with them.

From what I understand, each church has its own ordinances and one of the reasons there are so many of these little conservative churches is because when people disagree about ordinances, they break off to start another church. It is understood that if you join then you are agreeing to follow the ordinances of that chruch.

I would guess that one of the liberal Anabaptist or Brethren churches are more what you would feel more at home with.

I learned much from an Old Order River Brethren teacher many many years ago-he was a teacher at LMHS:thumbsup:
 
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WayneinMaine

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If you approach Anabaptist churches as if they were just another collection of Protestant denominations, then they will of course appear "legalistic". And in fact, many Conservative Mennonite groups that long ago jumped the tracks and adopted Fundamentalist Protestant theology have no solid foundation for their practices, which then become indeed extra-biblical rules.

On the other hand, if you were to look at a group like the Hutterites (or even some Amish groups), the degree of personal freedom you give up to join them in following Jesus overwhelms the "ordinance", which are just a part of a distinctive Christian culture which is quite separate from the world. Then these practies become a joy, not a burden that hampers your life in the world.
 
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Good King Edward VI

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"And in fact, many Conservative Mennonite groups that long ago jumped the tracks and adopted Fundamentalist Protestant theology have no solid foundation for their practices, which then become indeed extra-biblical rules."

And in fact, many liberal Mennonite groups that long ago jumped the tracks and adopted radically historical-critical readings of the Bible and attendant liberal Protestant theology have no foundations for their extra-biblical political positioninig and accomodationism with the world.

Man, can we have some facts and not just assertions?

Yours,
Jeff
 
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Good King Edward VI

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Jeff,

This is my first post on this forum, as I joined in order to give an answer to your inquiry:

How rampant would you say legalism among more conservative Anabaptist groups? Because this, for me, is an issue that most certainly could be a "deal-breaker", and I say that with regret. Truly, with regret.


I know what you mean. I'm a Methodist, living in Pennsylvania among various Anabaptist and Brethren groups which range from conservative to liberal, and I find things that I agree with and admire, but don't feel I could ever join any of the conservative churches that have the distinctive clothing, etc. Yet sometimes I've had enough of the worldliness in the mainstream church, and the conservative churches look attractive in contrast.

Anyway, I hear and read that comment of legalism about the conservative churches and I called an Old Order River Brethren friend for a response.

Her family is in a conservative church, with distinctive clothing, no TV, etc.

She believes it is having Jesus Christ as Savior that determines salvation and not trusting in clothing, etc. that gets a person into Heaven, but that some of the churches do have people that are legalistic.

She sees the ordinances of her church not as things to save them but that the ordinances protect them from the world. Also she thinks it would be difficult for a person to follow them unless they grew up with them.

From what I understand, each church has its own ordinances and one of the reasons there are so many of these little conservative churches is because when people disagree about ordinances, they break off to start another church. It is understood that if you join then you are agreeing to follow the ordinances of that chruch.

I would guess that one of the liberal Anabaptist or Brethren churches are more what you would feel more at home with.

Visiting,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

You and I seem to be in the same place, as you noted. And thanks for going to "the source" and asking someone who could really give you an honest answer. Parenthetically, I would add that, while I do not know what the general mass of Christians would think about the issue of separation-as-salvation in regards to Mennonite/Amish culture, I for one have never found a difficulty in understanding that that/those culture(s) base their salvation in Jesus Christ and His work, and that their own distinctive ways of working out a "Christian culture" are merely an outgrowth of their reading of the Scriptures - not its part-and-parcel.

I live in northern Indiana, and am surrounded by all stripes of Mennonites and Amish, but I feel hesitant about just up and speaking to someone I happen to cross paths with in, say, the Target grocery aisle.

"Hi. What bunch are you with? Do ya like it?"

People have a right to be left alone.

Yours,
Jeff
 
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WayneinMaine

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"And in fact, many Conservative Mennonite groups that long ago jumped the tracks and adopted Fundamentalist Protestant theology have no solid foundation for their practices, which then become indeed extra-biblical rules."

And in fact, many liberal Mennonite groups that long ago jumped the tracks and adopted radically historical-critical readings of the Bible and attendant liberal Protestant theology have no foundations for their extra-biblical political positioninig and accomodationism with the world.

I don't know what "facts" can be cited except by taking a detailed look at the history of teh Anabaptists: Mennontie Hutteriotes, AMish and Breren, and the splits and influences that brought those splits and the fundamental (not practical) religious world view of these groups throughout thier history.

The assertion I'm making is that you can't view Mennonite, Amish and Hutterite practices thorugh the lenses of Protestant or Roman/Orthodox theology.

How widely read are you in Anabaptist and Mennonite history?
 
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