interracial relationship?

[Radagast]

That's almost a heresy... Jesus had a real human body.

It's almost Doceticism, which John combats in his letters:

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. (2 John 7, NIV)

-- Radagast

 

[Blackguard_]

Genes don't get destroyed in mixing, so the recessive blue genes won't vanish.

So in the Punnet diagram they have, if the child is BB would the b gene still be passed on?
And maybe they would still exist, but how often would they get expressed do to it's low numbers compared to the crush of the much more numerous and dominant brown gene?

Don't confuse your preferences with God's will!

true.

Did God create races? He certainly created different genes, but maybe he wanted us to intermarry! Maybe that's part of His New Testament plan! It certainly happened when Christian Jews went to Greece and Rome and Egypt and beyond...

I've heard that before, but the idea God would create something like the races with the intent to destroy them seems absurd. I think if God intended the Races to mix then traits like red hair and green eyes would not be so recessive.

I think it is true that a mixed human race would result in roughly what Tiger Woods is (perahaps a shade or two lighter) and if God wante the races to mix, then I think that the result of a single mixed race would be a people that exists all the traits of the existaing races and that it would still be possible to find people who look "black" or "white" do to the play of traits that are not very dominant over each other in genetics or numbers. People would be a grab bag of traits. But a a mixed human race would be a Tiger Woods race where most people born would look like Tiger Woods aside from a few Blue eye'd or red haired freaks.

 

[Blackguard_]

Given the strong emotions you've stirred up, was that wise?

no.

That's almost a heresy... Jesus had a real human body.

I nver said he didn't. I do believe Christ didn't have human soul/"Nature" of the Hypostatic Union. Hence the "Heretic" Faith Icon. I'm Apollinarianist which is that Jesus was the Mind/Word/"soul' of God in a real human body but no human soul.

The death and ressurction would be kind of odd and pointless if Jesus did not have a real body.

The KJV is not better --- it actually has some errors (I was a KJV fan once). If you can't read the original, the NKJV is probably better.

I know it has some errors, but I like it better then most translations. The Bible just doesn't sound right without all the thees and thous and "thus saith the Lord"s. I'd use the NASB but I hate all those numbers in the text as they break up the flow of reading.

Your Kings quote, for example, uses the Hebrew na`ar which can mean a boy, a girl, a baby, a child, a servant, or a young man. The latter is probably the best translation, in context.

depending on what "young man" means as at the time that was written wouldn't a 13-14 year old qualify? I pictured the kids in the story as around 8, as a lot of them have the maturity level to be mocking someone like that. Although a 13-14 could as well, I just it more likely they'd be younger and less mature then "young men".

 

[Radagast]

So in the Punnet diagram they have, if the child is BB would the b gene still be passed on?

Parents BB Bb -> children 50% BB, 50% Bb
Parents Bb Bb -> children 25% BB, 50% Bb, 25% bb

I've heard that before, but the idea God would create something like the races with the intent to destroy them seems absurd.

God created different people -- for various reasons, e.g. close to the North Pole, white skin is useful, because it allows your body to make Vitamin D (off course, fish oil works too).

You have still provided no evidence that God created races as such -- certainly Europeans are so mixed that the original groups have been mostly lost. By your reasoning, black-haired blue-eyed people (or blond, brown-eyed ones) are displeasing to God, because they represent mixing. I don't believe that.

I believe God wants groups of different people to love each other. Inter-racial marriage is an example of that.

People would be a grab bag of traits.

Like we are now. And?

-- Radagast

 

[Radagast]

I nver said he didn't. I do believe Christ didn't have human soul/"Nature" of the Hypostatic Union. Hence the "Heretic" Faith Icon. I'm Apollinarianist which is that Jesus was the Mind/Word/"soul' of God in a real human body but no human soul.

I'm sorry to hear that (obviously you haven't understood your Bible all that well), but let's not debate that here.

-- Radagast

 

[StAnselm]

Almost a heresy? Nay, it is.

I think it's dangerous to base our ethical decisions on what we think God wants, if he hasn't actually said anything about it. Hence, there can be nothing possible wrong in inter-racial marriage. It was wrong in the Old Testament, but only because race and religion are connected in a way that they are not today. It is (still) always wrong for a Christian to marry a non-christian.

 

[rhema glory]

Lets not forget what God did to miriam for making fun of Moses bc he married an ethiopian.......He struck her w/ leprosy

Numbers 12

 

[Volos]

Lets not forget what God did to miriam for making fun of Moses bc he married an ethiopian.......He struck her w/ leprosy

Numbers 12

it continues to escape me as to just why anyone would volunteer to worship a God who engages in such hateful, evil and twisted behaviors such as this.

 

[Volos]

I actually saw that movie (mr and mrs loving) and I really like it,but that phrase the judge used was never in the bible!

the point was that religion was used to justify discrimination and personal prejudice. The same twisting of religion to justify such things are continuing today.

I admit there are some things in the bible that are black and white and there are some grey areas!It has already been adressed that the misinterpretation on race mixing was scripture talking about other tribes and not mixing w/ ppl who had other God's-it was a heart issue!Homosexuality is not a grey area when you study the scripture!I can spout them off but I'm sure you''ve seen them all, and I really don't have the time to make sure I'm stating the correct ones(know what chapters just a lil fuzzy on the verses)

I am certain that those who use the bible to justify racism and discrimination against African Americans felt and continue to feel that the verses they are using are not gray at all. They use the bible to prop up prejudice just as those who seek to justify discrimination against gays and lesbians do.



Discrimination biblically justified is still discrimination.

Prejudice biblically justified is still prejudice

Hate biblically justified is still hate

Intolerance biblically justified is still intolerance

However I know that not everyone subscribes to the bible or christianity and God gives us a choice!I don't think denying anyone certain rights will turn them to God!I am not against civil unions, but not a marriage covenant w/ it's religious blessings!

separate is not equal. Why call marriage another name when that is exactly what it is?



Alex and I were married eight and a half hears ago by the tenants and traditions of our religion. By your standard we are married because the ceremony was religious.

How can God bless something that is cursed?

The only cursing going on is by those advocating discrimination.

Maybe I am biased bc I have experienced some things and maybe I shouldn't compare the prejudices!To me,having seperate water fountains, segregatedschools,being hosed,slaved,lynched,having to sit on the back of the bus,lack of good education,and other atrocities just don't compare to the inconveniences some gays have faced!

you just advocated for having a separate “civil union” and you think this isn’t segregation?

Having hate groups scream hate epitaphs at funerals in an inconvenience?

Ask Matthew Shepherd about being lynched

Ask JoeBudda about his father and how he was lynched

Of course I know there has been some hate crimes against them just like any other different group,and I don't condone that!

but you just called these hate crimes “inconveniences” which sis in effect condoning them.

I don't even have a prob w/ ppl that don't believe in IRM as long as they are not physically or emotionally harming people!I just don't understand how the world says that christians hate gays etc!

try being gay and you might gain some insight into this.



Since I started posting here on these forums I have received nine PM death threats from Christians. I have been accused of sexually molesting children by Christians. I have read posts here where Christians state that they would happily shoot a gay couple and then read following posts by other Christians cheering and congratulating them for their bravery in announcing this. I have read posts by Christians applauding the murder of a 15 year old lesbian. There are endless posts by Christians containing lies about gays and lesbians, lies like homosexuals have drastically shortened life spans, lies like gays and lesbians are more likely to molest children, lies that are known by the posters to be lies but are happily put up time and time again. There are endless posts by Christians cheering legalized discrimination. there are posts by Christians explaining how killing a homosexual is not REALLY murder and should be perfectly legal.



And finally there are the endless posts by Christians claiming that gays and lesbians are not REALLY discriminated against. And worse posts that lie and say gays and lesbians have the same rights as heterosexuals …all they have to do is lie and pretend to be straight and viola they have all the same rights.

I don't hate anyone(and don't know of another christian that hates gays)either!

try reading some of the posts on homosexuality made here then. The hate comes through loud and clear.

I would not treat a hmsxl as they were diseased,I would not preach to them(unless they asked)I would have them over for dinner,what have you!

but you apparently draw the line at equal rights.

Someone who hates someone,has a strong disliking for that person,and or treats them worse than animals!I think the few bi-polar christians that killed gays or hold up signs that say "God hates ****" ruined the rest of our reputations!Ok I'm tired,rambling and need to head off to bed,sorry if my post doesn't make sense!

no it is not those Christians who have tarnished the reputation of Christians it is the majority of Christians who witness such things and do nothing that has tarnished the reputation of Christianity. Silence implies approval and when acts of hate meet with silent approval from the Christian majority they show themselves to be no different than those who act.

 

[cabbitgrrrl]

it continues to escape me as to just why anyone would volunteer to worship a God who engages in such hateful, evil and twisted behaviors such as this.[/i][/color]

i totally agree

 

[slayer-2004]

it continues to escape me as to just why anyone would volunteer to worship a God who engages in such hateful, evil and twisted behaviors such as this.

tell a girl the sky is red from the day she is born . No matter how hard the other kids try when that girl gets into kindergarten , she will refuse to believe the sky is blue .

Xianity is a huge mind-virus , During the time you are infected its possible to believe everything God does is justified , but then when another religion protrays the same thing it causes you to scoff at it as "They are being decieved by the devil"

Essentially thats what it comes down to . Any logic that turns them away from god ( as described in whatever doctrine they believe in ) is "The devil whispering in your ear" any scientific data that contradicts whats in the bible is "The devils work . The devil must have sabotaged the experiments and mind controlled the scientists !" . Thats probobly why it took me a while to rid myself of it .

 

[Blackguard_]

Parents BB Bb -> children 50% BB, 50% Bb
Parents Bb Bb -> children 25% BB, 50% Bb, 25% bb

B_ b_
B[BB Bb
B[BB Bb
So in the BB and Bb case, there is a 50% chance the b gene will not be passed on and be eradicateed from this line right? And in the hypothetical situation of a mixed up humanity such BB and Bb pairings would be common, especailly as there would be many Bbs as a result of bbs mixing with the BBs of the other races to form the one. and so while the gene may be able to continue existing indefinately, it may also be eradicated after several generations. So I do not think blue eyes in a mixed human race would be anymore then an oddity.

God created different people -- for various reasons, e.g. close to the North Pole, white skin is useful, because it allows your body to make Vitamin D (off course, fish oil works too).

Of course this doesn't helpe your case as you could argue that this implies God intended the races to stick to a certain area or at least climate, although I don't hold that position.

You have still provided no evidence that God created races as such -- certainly Europeans are so mixed that the original groups have been mostly lost.

Those groups that mixed were all white.

By your reasoning, black-haired blue-eyed people (or blond, brown-eyed ones) are displeasing to God, because they represent mixing. I don't believe that.

There are black haired and blue eyed white people, and are you sure blond hair and brown eyes exist outside of a dye job? You seem to be confusing race and subrace, mxing subraces is not racial mixing. And that someone has a different eye or hair color does not mean they are different races, or even different subraces. So a blue eyed white person with a brown eyed white person would not be mixing.

In short, those European groups that mixed were all the same race, they were at most different subraces.

I believe God wants groups of different people to love each other. Inter-racial marriage is an example of that.

You can love someone without marrying them.

Like we are now. And?

Sort of. But in the hypothetical "one mixed race" I do not think this would be the case.

I'm sorry to hear that (obviously you haven't understood your Bible all that well), but let's not debate that here.

Well I've seen no indication in the Bible Jesus had a human soul. The current Hypostatic Union orthodoxy comes from a poor fifth century "compromise" between the Nestorians and the Monophysites, the council of Chalcedon in 451 just declared both wrong and cobbled together a half-way doctrine and declared that orthodox.

But I'll drop the issue now.

 

[Blackguard_]

Lets not forget what God did to miriam for making fun of Moses bc he married an ethiopian.......He struck her w/ leprosy

Numbers 12

She was struck for questioning his position as a prophet.

 

[rhema glory]

Blackguard-just curious how you were inspired to come up w/ that user name?

Volos:

the point was that religion was used to justify discrimination and personal prejudice. The same twisting of religion to justify such things are continuing today.

I am only responsible for my actions and my walk w/ the Lord!You do know that MANY deem themselves christians just bc they believe in the notion that there is a God..nothing more nothing less,just a belief!I still hold to my beliefs, and my faith is unshakeable no matter who ridicules me for it! No,I don't know what it's like to be gay, nor do I know what it's like to be asian,atheist,or anything I'm not,just like you don't know what it's like to be a woman,a christian, a mom,or anything else your not!I don't think ppl's views will change over a message board so I'm done going round-a-bout!I am new to this site and still trying to figure out if it's for me!

I do want to say that is appauling that you received 4 death threats and others said all those mean things about you here!There is no reason for that... Christian or non christian,and I would like to stand in the gap and apologize to you for having to deal w/ such nonsense!!I'm sure you are a beautiful person inside and out,regardless of your gender orientation,and NO one deserves that treatment!!Please don't lump ALL christians as haters,bc for just as many bad there are good, the same w/ atheists!There are many nonchristians(in the polls)that have voted against gay marriage too,it's not JUST christians!My dh isn't a christian and he doesn't agree w/ it either!We all have a right to our op and our beliefs... even blackguard By the way,I've already heard the "not when it takes away our rights comeback"(even though the right has never been made as of yet,so nothing was taken)not being facicitious just wanted to save some posters some time

I wish you well volos

 

[Blackguard_]

Blackguard-just curious how you were inspired to come up w/ that user name?

I got it from Ambrose Bierce's "The Devil's Dictionary" definition of a cynic.

CYNIC, n.
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.

 

[ForeRunner]

B_ b_
B[BB Bb
B[BB Bb
So in the BB and Bb case, there is a 50% chance the b gene will not be passed on and be eradicateed from this line right? And in the hypothetical situation of a mixed up humanity such BB and Bb pairings would be common, especailly as there would be many Bbs as a result of bbs mixing with the BBs of the other races to form the one. and so while the gene may be able to continue existing indefinately, it may also be eradicated after several generations. So I do not think blue eyes in a mixed human race would be anymore then an oddity.

No, there is a 75% chance the gene will be passed on. in 3 of the 4 boxes a "b" is present... 3/4 = 75%.

You are also wrong because Sexual Reproduction alone CANNOT cause changes in the frequency of alleles, it is called the "Hardy-Weinberg Principle". If we isolate sexual reproduction(assuming the population reproduces sexually) in a population by eliminating:

1. Gene Flow
2. Selection
3. Mutation

And the gene is diploid (1 from each parent). We find that the frequency of alleles is fixed after only 1 generation of random mating.
Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardy-Weinberg_principle

Therefore you are wrong in assuming that mixing the races will eliminate recessive genes.

are you sure blond hair and brown eyes exist outside of a dye job?

Yes, they are called Swedish. A good friend of mine gets that all the time, her reply is "No! I'm Swedish!"

 

[Shane Roach]

I am absolutely dumbfounded. We have someone actually arguing that race mixing is against the Bible? I don't even know where to begin.... There's NO, absolutely NO excuse for that teaching. None. Any supposed racial prohibition I have ever seen hinted at in the Bible revolves around idolatrous cultures, NOT RACE.

If there ever appears anything resembling some sort of Biblical argument on this issue here, maybe I will go into more detail, but ultimately all I can really say is that this issue is dead before birth.

 

[ForeRunner]

Also, the way I understand it, there was no concept of "race" like we have in ancient cultures. The color of a persons skin was completely irrelevant.

 

[slayer-2004]

why are you arguing about genetics ? Even if blackgaurd was right about what he was saying about genetics it wouldnt matter .

Because no one cares .

 

[Blackguard_]

No, there is a 75% chance the gene will be passed on. in 3 of the 4 boxes a "b" is present... 3/4 = 75%.

B_ b_
B[BB Bb
B[BB Bb

I fail to see where this thrid "b" comes from in a BB and Bb pairing, Radagast even said as much earlier
"Parents BB Bb -> children 50% BB, 50% Bb
Parents Bb Bb -> children 25% BB, 50% Bb, 25% bb"

Therefore you are wrong in assuming that mixing the races will eliminate recessive genes.

Maybe, but those genes would never be expressed again outside of a few freaks.

And in the example in the Wikipedia article, they assume both parents carry one of each gene (Aa+Aa) I think that might indicate something, although I can't quite think what.

Weinberg principle) states that, under certain conditions, after one generation of random mating, the genotype frequencies at a single gene (or locus) will become fixed at a particular equilibrium value. It also specifies that those equilibrium frequencies can be represented as a simple function of the allele frequencies at that locus

Gene Migration
Many species are made up of local populations whose members tend to breed within the group. Each local population can develop a gene pool distinct from that of other local populations.

However, members of one population may breed with occasional immigrants from an adjacent population of the same species. This can introduce new genes or alter existing gene frequencies in the residents.

Here, this is from an article I found that used an example of a hamster population to conclude that once genetic equilibrium was established by mixing the population, the allele frequency was the same as before within that population. And indeed, such is shown in real life among white people's population as brown eyes never eradicated blue in that that races population.

But you seem to fail to apreciate that race mixing is mixing populations, and it would seem race/population mixing can alter the gene frequency.

So you you right about a population with no gene flow/migration such as within a race, a recessive gene could not be eradicated without genetic drift, as the Hardy-Weinberg Priciple states, but gene flow/migration is precisely what we are talking about when discussing the mixing of the races.

If you mean humanity as one giant "population" and the wrold wide freqency of b would stay consent at least in theory, I think genetic drift would have a real chance of wiping out b.

I'm not sure how a striaght theoreticl Harding Principle would look like though, or is it that there would be the same number of people carrying the b gene as toady if the races mixed and population numbers stayed the same? And so if there are 200 million blue eyed people today, in the mixed race there would be 200 million people with blue eyes?

I gather the Priciple applies once the population has reached "genetic equilibrium" (is completely mixed?) and I think that with the extreme numbers of BBs the frequency of b in a mixed race would be extremely small.
And while the b gene may arguably always exist, it is possible genetic drift will destroy it, especially if it's frequency is very low.

And furthermore, like I said, even if the b gene continues to exist, it will probably be very rarely expressed given that Bbs and bbs will be very rare and have poor chances of expression against a crush of BBs.

Yes, they are called Swedish. A good friend of mine gets that all the time, her reply is "No! I'm Swedish!"

Oh, ok.