interpreting Scripture

[kayanne]

Hi
I haven't posted here much for a while. I guess I haven't been feeling very "baptist" lately. LOL. Seriously, I am going through some serious examination of what I believe, and what my church teaches.

I get discouraged at the seemingly endless points of doctrine that various Christians disagree on. Now, it would be fine if we all just said, "Well, I think such-and-such verse means yada yada yada, but you see it differently, and I'll concede that it can be confusing." But in actuality, most Christians seem to be pretty adamant that their own understanding of what the Bible says, and their own church's doctrines, are "The Correct View."

So my question to you is: how can you personally feel confident that your particular beliefs, your particular understanding of various doctrines, is correct, and that others are wrong?

I ask a lot of questions over on OBOB, and one thing I somewhat envy is their belief that scripture interpretation has been preserved since the apostles. Now, I'm not saying I believe everything that cath's say has been believed and passed down by the apostles. Yet it does make more sense to me to try to interpret scripture in a manner consistent with what the apostles and the early church believed, than for me to say "Well, I read the Bible and rely on the Holy Spirit to give me understanding." It would seem the Holy Spirit is telling everybody something different!

I hope my questions and my struggle is somewhat clear to you. I had a hard time putting this into words. Please, let's keep this very nice and civil---I'm struggling enough with my faith lately---I don't need a bunch of in-fighting to tear me down any more.

respectfully, kayanne

 

[eutychus]

Kayanne,
It's good to doubt. At least your mentally engaged what's going on around you, and that's more than what a lot of people do.

The reason why a lot of denominations believe different things is at the root of interpretation: they don't know how to read the Bible. Although I do think it is necessary to consult sources outside of the Bible such as the early church, I think that even this can be fallible, and that's why we do have the Bible--because we constantly need to be poring over it, checking our doctrines with Scripture to make sure they hold up.

Back to basic interpretation...Christians don't always approach the Bible with the way we should interpret it almost two thousand years after the latest documents in it were written, and that is how we get all these different ideas. The traditional way to interpret issues in Scripture is to remember the contexts that the verse is in, the type of book, the author, the part of the Bible, and so forth, and to remember that a verse can never mean something that it did not originally mean. How do we even know this is right? Well...it's what we do with other texts, and it's logical. That's how we know it's the correct way to go about things.

As to my knowing what I believe as being correct...I don't. And it's difficult for me to swallow, especially 'cause I go to a Bible college where I get doctrine spouted every day. Granted, I believe what is spouted to me, but I have to always check it in Scripture (studying each verse in its many contexts), and never get to comfortable. Fact is that we don't know half the things we think we know 'cause the concepts and doctrines are too deep for our human minds...we just think we can grasp at these concepts. We need to study Scripture, and hold doctrine high and pray for its purity, but we should never get too haughty to think that we've discovered some key to interpreting every Scripture ever written.

As to everybody saying that the Holy Spirit caused them to believe this or that...I take it with a grain of salt. The Holy Spirit cannot contradict himself, and even if I think that the Spirit is telling me something, I should be leary that I'm not just going through a psychosis.

Thanks for being honest with what's going through your head. You're not alone, and I'm pretty sure if there's a Christian that has never been in the position you've been, then they really didn't give a darn to think about what they were being taught. I hope that helps.

 

[Sword-In-Hand]

Something that helps me when trying to interpret scripture is to always remember that nothing in God's Word can contradict itself. It's one of those, it either is, or it ain't type deals.

Also, we have to remember what the entire Bible has to say about certain things rather than a lone verse. People try to twist verses to make them appear the way they want to believe, but if in fact you look at what the whole of the Bible says then it makes the interpretation clearer. I learned years ago to never base your opinion on one verse. People make that mistake all too often.

And finally we have to understand that scripture interprets scripture. The Bible shows itself to be true, not us.

Hope that helps. Good question.

 

[Crazy Liz]

So my question to you is: how can you personally feel confident that your particular beliefs, your particular understanding of various doctrines, is correct, and that others are wrong?

I would just like to take a minute to deconstruct this question. I am pretty confident in most of my beliefs and understandings, but I'm far less sure that those who disagree with me are wrong.

Despite the debates you may see me get into in these forums, I prefer to enter into discussions with others who have similar attitudes toward their beliefs and understandings. We may have a pretty good understanding now, but may come to a better understanding later.

There are somethings I feel pretty sure are wrong. Most of the time, these are things I used to think but changed my mind about. When I was an undergrad, I had to take a couple of classes that included some material on child development. As I get older, I come back to these as a framework to help me with doctrinal differences. Many of the things I have changed my mind about have been matters of my own spiritual and cognitive development, as well as experience, allowing me to see things in a different way than I thought them before. Does that mean the way I used to see them was wrong, or that other people are wrong for seeing them that way? Not entirely. If you are familiar with Piaget, you might remember the well-known experiment dealing with the ability of children of different ages to understand "bigger" and "smaller," or "more" and "less." Before a certain age, children will say a tall, thin 1-liter container is bigger and holds more water than a short, fat 1-liter container. Even when the examiner pours the liquid from one container to the other, the child will still say there is more in the tall one than the short one.

Now, is the young child who says this wrong? No. They are perceiving, processing, understanding and interpreting the data the way their current cognitive development and experience make them capable of understanding. If a 20-year-old were to do the same thing, we would say that person was either cognitively impaired or wrong. A 20-year-old of normal development and experience might look at the two containers and make a wrong first guess, but after pouring liquid from one container to the other, would be able to state accurately (based upon interpretation of experience) which was larger or smaller, or whether they were equivalent in size.

I think many times doctrinal arguments are a lot like a 5-year-old and a 7-year-old arguing about which 1-liter container is bigger. The argument itself is probably pointless, but it will contribute to the bank of experiences by which the 5-year-old will eventually learn to think like the 7-year-old.

Similarly, I think we are capable of continuing to develop in our theological and spiritual understanding throughout our lives. I now sometimes laugh a little when people say, "Calvin thought X," or argue whether or not C. S. Lewis was a universalist. The great theologians continued to learn and develop over their entire lives. C.S. Lewis was certainly not a universalist at age 40, but was he at the end of his life? That is not so certain. Citing something he wrote at age 40 would not prove that he never held that belief, or if he held it for a while and then discarded it. Those who think they can put a label on a theologian without considering that even these great thinkers' thought changed over time are missing an important piece of information.

I feel confident in what I believe now, but I also realize further development and more learning (experience) may lead me to change my mind or refine these ideas at some point down the road. I accept that many things I argue with people about may be simply matters of perspective and development. Discussions with people who hold similar attitudes, and are open to new learning are much more productive than pure debates, where each participant is merely trying to win their point.

I feel confident that I am better able to interpret scripture now than I was a few years ago. I no longer hold quite so strictly to rules of interpretation like those cited above, but I realize that if I had not used such rules at certain stages, I would have gotten lost or stuck along the way, so I would say, don't criticize such rules until you know how to use them, and don't discard them until they become inadequate to help you with real spiritual issues (not abstract theoretical or philosophical questions). If and when you get to that point, trust God to bring you, somehow, to a better understanding.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Excellent thread............

I'll throw my 2 shekel's worth in.

First, I beleive that Scritpure should be viewed in the context it was given, audience, author, historical, cultural. The Bible didn't float down out of the heavens in a hemenutically sealed bubble, it is a real document, about real people in a real time in a real place. Further on this, all but two of the book of the Bible were written by Jews, with a Jewish way of thinking in a Jewish land and a Jewish society. The Jewish/Hebrew/Eastern way of thinking is FAR different than our year 2005/Western/Greek way of thinking.

IMO to divorce the Scriptures from their orginal context is IMO a misuse of the Text.

Second, regarding the different Christian "groups" and their related differences in beliefs. [side note] The fundamental identity of a follower of Jesus according to the Scritpures is not does a person have the "correct" things lined up in their brains (beliefs) the fundamental identity of a follower of Jesus is "The Way" a person lives (because of what they beleive), belief in an of it's self is to the goal or the end result - the way in which a person lives is.........anyway I know I'm preaching to the choir here.

In Matthew 16 when Jesus gives the disciples authority to "bind and loose", He is giving them the authority (from the Judaic context) to permit and to prohibit various issues from the Torah that may come up (see Acts 15 the Jerusalem council). As disciples today, I believe we also have that authority (with in reason, so as not to depart what is orthodox) to bind and loose on varous issues as well, an example would be women in ministry.

Anyway..........that's my take on it...............

 

[jcright]

kayanne,

I think I almost see two different questions:

So my question to you is: how can you personally feel confident that your particular beliefs, your particular understanding of various doctrines, is correct, and that others are wrong?

For this, I would say prayer for wisdom and guidance as well as plenty of research. I too, a few years back, had to re-examine my beliefs. I'm glad I did. I never knew that I harbored so many misconceptions/lies. Unfortunately, the church I grew up in practices mind control in very subtle ways. It begins with the parents and extends through the church. As a child, you would never think that your parents are wrong and therefore you probably wouldn't question their beliefs...at least, as a kid, I did not. I guess the point that I'm getting at is that you probably shouldn't take stock in what other people believe (no matter how much you love them and respect them and no matter how adamant they seem in their beliefs). I love my mom, but I know now that her church is definitely not for me...and I know that only because God allowed me to approach his Word without letting my emotions rule me which means I was doing research instead of interpretation (at least I hope I was!). Anyhow, I did a lot of reading to get where I am at.

I think the second question is "why are we willing to be separatist (ie. my belief's are right, the others are wrong mentality)"?

To be sure, it's not easy to take the view of the separatist. After all, we do not want to alienate our family and friends. A lot of people that I meet rail against the idea of a black and white view. For the sake of happiness/peace/etc., it's easier to let everyone have their own opinions...everytime I think of that I remember the robot from that show Lost in Space "Warning! Warning! Danger Will Robinson! To get back on track...Whether we realize it or not, there are degrees of separatism and everyone is somewhere on the spectrum.

So how do I cope with the idea? I fully believe that there is only one truth...for there to be other truths would lead to chaos. There can be different perspectives of that truth, but there can be only one truth. Consider Mat 27:5 and Acts 1:18. One passage tells how Judas hung himself and the other tells how he fell and his body burst open. Contradiction of facts? Two different truths? It had been explained to me that he might have hung himself over a cliff. When the rope or branch broke, and he fell, then his body could have burst open on the ground. Therefore, we have two different perspectives on the same event. Neither of them being false and neither contradicting each other. Let's now consider two different religions. Christian Science teaches that the devil is not real where as christians would teach that the devil is real. These are NOT two perspectives of the same thing. These are two different interpretations, each claiming that they have the true interpretation. So who's right? That's where the research comes in.

Okay, so what's the point? I'm trying to point out that there is only ONE truth out there. We need to be careful as to what is the truth and not be afraid to stick to it despite what others believe. I'd like for you to consider Mat 10:34:
34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
My thought on this verse (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), is that we are to believe in one truth and not accept anything else. In fact, we're told many times throughout the bible to watch out for false teachings. We need to know what the Word says! Anyhow, I believe that the above passage should be an example to us to stick adamantly to the truth. Yes, it will hurt people that we love...but who is more important? Jesus or our loved ones?

I would contrast that with a passage written by Paul...I say "I would" because at the moment I'm blanking on where it's at and even if he wrote it. If I get a chance to research it, then I'll come back later with the verse. Anyhow, it seems to me that there is a passage that talks about not splitting hairs with each other. I believe that this applies to personal preference. Let me try and give you an example. One person may think that tv should never be watched while another person thinks that it's okay for certain shows. This would be (at least in my mind) a matter of personal preference and neither idea goes against what is written in the bible. After all, the bible does not say "Thou shalt not watch tv". On the other hand, we are supposed to be separate from the world and therefore we should be discerning about what we watch.

Does any of my babbling help? I'm going to try to sum it up. From the verse above, I think that it's okay to be adamant about one truth but we need to do our research so that we know what that one truth is.

I'd like to recommend a book to you that I found VERY helpful. It's called "how to read the bible for all it's worth" by Gordon Fee. Excellent book...although, it can be a tough read.

 

[newlite]

i think all a person can really do is pray god helps and leads, even though he does anyways. do let ppl derail you and start doubting what you believe. stay strong. as for what to believe, god will tell you.

cool, shortest post here...

 

[kayanne]

Something that helps me when trying to interpret scripture is to always remember that nothing in God's Word can contradict itself. It's one of those, it either is, or it ain't type deals.

Ultimately that must be true (that God's Word can't contradict itself), but various denominations certainly have concluded some very contradictory interpretations on numerous things
ie OSAS/can lose your salvation?
instruments in church/no instruments in church?
women can preach/nope, women can't preach
God caused the tsunami/no He didn't?
it was God's will that a drunk driver killed that person because *everything* happens within God's will?
God chose some for heaven and some for hell/God wants everyone to be saved?
real presence/plain bread and juice?
baptism required for salvation/faith alone?
purgatory or not?
66 books or the deuterocanon also?

Please know I don't want to debate ANY of those specific questions--they are just examples of how opposite we can be on issues. And I'm not saying I'm losing sleep pondering the answers to those kinds of questions, LOL.
But basically I can either go along with what my church teaches about them (and wonder why the church across the street has the opposite teaching), or I can try to come up with my own answers. Either way, I could be wishy-washy and think that *maybe* I'm understanding correctly, or I could be pig-headed and argumentative (I see plenty of that here and in other Christian circles), or I could be confident but gracious toward other interpretations.

I find myself in a church that teaches/preaches its interpretations of various things pretty adamantly. For years I liked that aspect. I liked that everything was black and white, and that our preacher would "tell it like it is." But the more I realized how many other Christians believe differently, and the more I realized that scripture really is complicated and can easily lead to different interpretations, the more I started thinking things like "How dare our preacher act like there's no way he could be wrong on these things he's saying. How dare *I* think that I must be correct about xyz doctrine and that my neighbor who attends the church across the street is wrong."

Crazy Liz, you said sometimes it's not a matter of one person being wrong, but just being at different places in their spiritual growth. But I think most of the questions I listed above must have a single answer; one side must be wrong.

I just feel that despite all of my praying, all of my trying to read scripture within context, all of my careful study, etc, I will never arrive at absolutely clear understanding of many many issues. Yet churches teach as though they do have that certainty. We have denominations and sub-denominations and sub-groups of those, and every group that breaks off from the former thinks they have something figured out better than the group before. We have people here on these various forums who will argue forever that "abc" is true, and someone else equally determined to prove that "xyz" is true (and the 2 viewpoints are in complete opposition).

Which brings me back to my earlier comment about catholics and how they believe that their understanding of scripture goes back to the apostles and the early church. We know that for centuries, Christians did have to rely on oral teaching and tradition, because they didn't have Bibles. Maybe there are things we could learn from the catholics, who see personal interpretation of scripture as a slippery slope toward wrong thinking and division.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Crazy Liz, you said sometimes it's not a matter of one person being wrong, but just being at different places in their spiritual growth. But I think most of the questions I listed above must have a single answer; one side must be wrong.

Or both may be wrong. Or both may be different attempts to answer a poorly-framed question.

Which brings me back to my earlier comment about catholics and how they believe that their understanding of scripture goes back to the apostles and the early church. We know that for centuries, Christians did have to rely on oral teaching and tradition, because they didn't have Bibles. Maybe there are things we could learn from the catholics, who see personal interpretation of scripture as a slippery slope toward wrong thinking and division.

I think you have a good point here. Anabaptists are also cautious about personal interpretation of scripture. While Catholics focus on Tradition (giving due consideration and deference to the interpretations of Christians earlier in history) Anabaptists focus on interpreting scripture together within a covenanted congregation. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but each helps to overcome the danger of independent personal interpretation.

 

[Savedsis]

Great thread.....I too for a while struggled with the same kinds of questions....I was going to another denomination in the evenings on sunday and my home church Baptist in the mornings......My home church is dead..NO it is dead....No life....The other church was more lively...
I still need help in the area of the dead church.....