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Interesting
- Thread starter King Mob
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There is no contradiction here. Remember, I am referring to a relationship between God and a creature He created, not a relationship between two created beings (ie. human love). God's glory would be a prominent feature of this loving relationship. The creature in love and awe of it's Creator and the Creator in love with the creature He created. This is perfectly compatible...
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So is man's only purpose to love God or to be his glory? Wait, let's just move the goalposts to accommodate your response...
Why must God's glory be a part of a loving relationship? Just how vain and arrogant does that make your god anyway? I don't expect glory and awe from anyone who loves me. In fact I don't expect it from anyone at all - I'm not that needy or shallow
Besides which, if it were a truly mutual relationship God would be in awe of, and glorying, his creation. Which he apparently isn't, so yet another of your arguments founders.
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Is this the same relationship that you have with your children (that you created)?
Did you create them for your own glory?
Are your children in awe of you, and is this necessary for you to love them?
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I did not create my children - apart from supplying the seed, they were created by God in my wife's womb...an amazing process!
No, I am not God, so I don't deserve glory and I did not create my children - God designed and created the mechanics for me and my kids to exist.
Don't think so (they are still very young so any impressions of me being awesome will quickly disappear!). This is not necessary for me to love them but again, I am not a God who created three children. I am simply a created being myself (unlike God) who used the processes provided by a Creator God to enjoy the privilege of parenthood. Any credit for creating my children should rightly go to God - I did not design the mechanics of bringing children into the world...I am simply a participant. For this, I thank God every day because it is amazing!
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ianb321red
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Based on love not being a conscious choice
Throwing out baseless assertions doesn't do anything other than weaken your already weak argument(s).....
You throw out "Love does not demonstrate free will" - what is this? Your opinion? What is it based on?
You throw out "love not being a conscious choice" - is this a fact then? Is it possible that love COULD be a conscious choice?
To quote CS Lewis on this matter:
" Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having."
Quoted from "The Case for Christianity".....
Danny is spot on here - genuine love and a love that God wants is ONLY possible because of free will. If a person is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible and has made love possible...
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ianb321red
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There's no contradiction here - it doesn't repeat verbatim what Danny wrote, but contradiction there is not...
A contradiction means it would have to be either at odds or the opposite, and this is clearly not the case
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ianb321red
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So is man's only purpose to love God or to be his glory? Wait, let's just move the goalposts to accommodate your response...
Why must God's glory be a part of a loving relationship? Just how vain and arrogant does that make your god anyway? I don't expect glory and awe from anyone who loves me. In fact I don't expect it from anyone at all - I'm not that needy or shallow
Boring special pleading argument.
Danny's response is consistent with an array of biblical texts to support his position.
Your retort insists that despite what we DO reliably know about God, we should disregard it simply to support an argument from your own opinion backed up by....well your own opinion.
Further - you impose your own set of rules (e.g. "I don't expect glory and awe from anyone who loves me") on the issue- but do you really think this is a solid argument from a single individual pleading on their personal preferences?
Why must God's glory be a part of a loving relationship? Because Danny just made this up off the top of head??
The entire bible narrative fundamentally makes this point - it is one of the properly basic aspects of Christian theology....
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Do you understand what a baseless assertion is? It's one where the person making the assertion cannot provide any support for that assertion. If you paid attention to what was being said, you'd understand that one of those statements is the support for the other i.e. it is the base for the "baseless" assertion
You have done nothing to demonstrate that either is incorrect. If you want to challenge them, go ahead.
Your support for Danny's claim is the exact same, unsupported claim from a different source. That's pretty laughable, really.
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I already demonstrated the contradiction in this post.
But let's make it clear again. Danny's claim was "We were created ONLY for the purpose of a mutually loving relationship with God." A contradiction of that claim would be a claim that said we were created for anything other than ONLY a mutually loving relationship with God.
So, what was your claim? "We were created for the glory of God." That, Ian, is something other than "ONLY.....a loving relationship with God." In other words, it is a contradiction.
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Do you even know what special pleading is?
That's funny. You know nothing reliably about God, but I could find millions of people who would agree with my opinion that awe and glorification are not prerequisites of a loving relationship - I suspect that if you're honest you agree with that opinion, too. Why do those millions of opinions agree? Common experience. I challenge you to find anyone who thinks a loving relationship requires glorification and awe.
Actually, you and Danny are imposing the rule "God must have glory and awe from those who love him". You really need to take responsibility for your own arguments rather than trying to pass them off as mine, especially when I specifically oppose them.
No, you don't get to move the goalposts again. Let's stick to the point being discussed. A truly mutual loving relationship is not one sided (that's what mutual means). So, does God hold you in awe and glorify you? No? Then your argument fails.
FYI - this insistence that a loving relationship with God must be different to any other loving relationship simply because you say so is an example of special pleading.
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