Interesting Situation

[Seaside Mists]

Today, I decided to go to a local farmstand for some fresh vegetables. It's a nice place, one that I've been to several times. Since it's a Saturday, it was fairly busy. When I got what I needed, I got in line behind a woman, mid 30's to 40's, and her two young school age children. Boys, oldest couldn't have been more than 11 and the second couldn't have been older than 8 or 9. While I was waiting, I happened to notice the young lady, exotic looking lady in her early or mid 20's, was wearing several necklaces. One of them I recognized immediately to be the witch symbol (an "X" with a line over and under the X, and a line perfectly through the middle) and another longer necklace of a bird that had a small Pentagram in it. Although her dress and behavior was perfectly normal (a cheery gal wearing shorts and a tank top with a small American flag embroidered on it), I knew based on her jewelry that she was a Witch, probably Wiccan or another form of Paganism.

When the woman in front of me placed her basket on the table, she engaged in friendly chit-chat with the cashier. Until she noticed the Pentagram necklace. She called her husband out of the car to take the kids away, and then proceeded to berate the casheir for exposing her children to Satanism. The cashier, polite as can be, explained that she wasn't a Satanist, but she was Wiccan, but the woman continued to yell at her for flaunting her "ties with Satan" in front of young children. The cashier again said that she wasn't a Satanist, but that she was Wiccan. She said that she was sorry to offend her, but the Pentagram was the symbol of her faith, and she wears it all the time... Even at her regular job as an assistant teacher. This caused the woman to lose all control.

By this time, someone who I presume to be the manager or other boss, at least somebody above the cashier, came over to see what the fuss was over. The woman said she was offended by the cashier's Pentagram and she said that it was disturbing to her faith and her children, and she was disgusted that a farmstand she threw business at was employing people who "flaunted Satanic sinning." She went on and on for several minutes about how her children were damaged, her faith shaken, that people like the cashier were positioning themselves in mainstream society to destroy it, and so on and so forth (by this time, a large crowd of 15 people had formed to watch the exchange). While the woman ranted, the cashier was perfectly still and quiet, the manager listened and nodded her head, and there were expressions which ranged from shock to disgust to nods of agreement to what the woman was saying.

The manager told the cashier to remove or her Pentagram. The cashier said "I always wear this necklace, it's a sign of my faith. Out of respect to those who may not understand, I usually wear it under my shirt but this is my choice since legally I'm perfectly allowed to wear it proudly. It must have slipped out of my shirt while I was working today, I didn't take it out intentionally, but I'm not ashamed that people could see it." This irritated the woman even more, and the manager told her again to take it off. The cashier said, essentially, the same thing again. The manager told her to take it off or she'd have to talk to another person, who I assume to be another manager or boss. The cashier, calm as a cucumber said "This is a job, (pointing to her Pentagram) this is my faith... My faith is way more important than this job." and we watched as she picked up her bag, her keys, went to her car, and drove off... To the applause of several of the people there.

The manager apologized repeatedly to the woman, and offered her free food. This is about all I saw, as I put my basket down in the middle of the floor and said that the woman in front of me was out of line, the cashier was very polite and respectful, even in the face of a completely hostile and rude attack by this other woman, and the exchange has pretty much ruined any chance of me ever shopping there again. I left my basket in the middle of the floor and walked out the door, with several people hot on my heels.

My question is... do you think this woman was out of line for behaving like she did? For the Christians on the forum, would you have done what she did, or would you have thought nothing of it? Do you feel that it is right that people of religions who display symbols you find offensive (like the Pentagram or Pentacle) should have to hide them while they work with the public?

And, more importantly, since this is a topic that offended the woman greatly, do you believe people who are Wiccan, Pagan, Satanist, or even Gay or Lesbian, should be allowed to teach or work with children as teachers, teacher's aides, or otherwise?

 

[Gardenia]

If this lady says her faith is shaken from seeing a necklace, then I dont believe her faith was very strong at all. I think she was very much out of line. If I saw someone wearing a cross id never throw a fit and demand they remove it at once.

I keep my necklace under my shirt (an ankh and Heru hawk), but if they were to slip out id never be embarassed or take them off for anyone. I dont believe anyone should have to hide their faith, no matter what faith they are.

As for working with children? I see no problem with any of these people working with children.. except for maybe the woman who had an outburst in this story. Id be afraid of what would happen to the poor child who did not share her religious views..

 

[lifeis_myplayground]

Today, I decided to go to a local farmstand for some fresh vegetables. It's a nice place, one that I've been to several times. Since it's a Saturday, it was fairly busy. When I got what I needed, I got in line behind a woman, mid 30's to 40's, and her two young school age children. Boys, oldest couldn't have been more than 11 and the second couldn't have been older than 8 or 9. While I was waiting, I happened to notice the young lady, exotic looking lady in her early or mid 20's, was wearing several necklaces. One of them I recognized immediately to be the witch symbol (an "X" with a line over and under the X, and a line perfectly through the middle) and another longer necklace of a bird that had a small Pentagram in it. Although her dress and behavior was perfectly normal (a cheery gal wearing shorts and a tank top with a small American flag embroidered on it), I knew based on her jewelry that she was a Witch, probably Wiccan or another form of Paganism.

When the woman in front of me placed her basket on the table, she engaged in friendly chit-chat with the cashier. Until she noticed the Pentagram necklace. She called her husband out of the car to take the kids away, and then proceeded to berate the casheir for exposing her children to Satanism. The cashier, polite as can be, explained that she wasn't a Satanist, but she was Wiccan, but the woman continued to yell at her for flaunting her "ties with Satan" in front of young children. The cashier again said that she wasn't a Satanist, but that she was Wiccan. She said that she was sorry to offend her, but the Pentagram was the symbol of her faith, and she wears it all the time... Even at her regular job as an assistant teacher. This caused the woman to lose all control.

By this time, someone who I presume to be the manager or other boss, at least somebody above the cashier, came over to see what the fuss was over. The woman said she was offended by the cashier's Pentagram and she said that it was disturbing to her faith and her children, and she was disgusted that a farmstand she threw business at was employing people who "flaunted Satanic sinning." She went on and on for several minutes about how her children were damaged, her faith shaken, that people like the cashier were positioning themselves in mainstream society to destroy it, and so on and so forth (by this time, a large crowd of 15 people had formed to watch the exchange). While the woman ranted, the cashier was perfectly still and quiet, the manager listened and nodded her head, and there were expressions which ranged from shock to disgust to nods of agreement to what the woman was saying.

The manager told the cashier to remove or her Pentagram. The cashier said "I always wear this necklace, it's a sign of my faith. Out of respect to those who may not understand, I usually wear it under my shirt but this is my choice since legally I'm perfectly allowed to wear it proudly. It must have slipped out of my shirt while I was working today, I didn't take it out intentionally, but I'm not ashamed that people could see it." This irritated the woman even more, and the manager told her again to take it off. The cashier said, essentially, the same thing again. The manager told her to take it off or she'd have to talk to another person, who I assume to be another manager or boss. The cashier, calm as a cucumber said "This is a job, (pointing to her Pentagram) this is my faith... My faith is way more important than this job." and we watched as she picked up her bag, her keys, went to her car, and drove off... To the applause of several of the people there.

The manager apologized repeatedly to the woman, and offered her free food. This is about all I saw, as I put my basket down in the middle of the floor and said that the woman in front of me was out of line, the cashier was very polite and respectful, even in the face of a completely hostile and rude attack by this other woman, and the exchange has pretty much ruined any chance of me ever shopping there again. I left my basket in the middle of the floor and walked out the door, with several people hot on my heels.

My question is... do you think this woman was out of line for behaving like she did? For the Christians on the forum, would you have done what she did, or would you have thought nothing of it? Do you feel that it is right that people of religions who display symbols you find offensive (like the Pentagram or Pentacle) should have to hide them while they work with the public?

And, more importantly, since this is a topic that offended the woman greatly, do you believe people who are Wiccan, Pagan, Satanist, or even Gay or Lesbian, should be allowed to teach or work with children as teachers, teacher's aides, or otherwise?

Interesting siduation and the lady was completly out of line the cashier had everyright to wear her necklace as much as a christian has the right to wear a cross around thier neck or in thier ear or on thier shirt. And asking if wiccans should be alowed to teach is like asking if christians should be alowed to teach you cannot segregate on religion and/or sexual orientation. And if a christian can display a cross around thier neck I can display a pentacle and as for during work same applies. You dont see a wiccan throwing a hissy cause a christian is wearing a cross necklace do you?

 

[Alecto]

My question is... do you think this woman was out of line for behaving like she did?

Absolutely not, I would love to give that woman a high five for having a cool head and sticking up for herself.

Do you feel that it is right that people of religions who display symbols you find offensive (like the Pentagram or Pentacle) should have to hide them while they work with the public?

I dont know if this is still part of the question for Christians, but Ill answer anyways. No I dont, the Pentacle is just as much a symbol as the cross. If your going to make EVERYONE hide thier symbols, fine. If its just the pentacles, then no. All or nothing in my opinion.

And, more importantly, since this is a topic that offended the woman greatly, do you believe people who are Wiccan, Pagan, Satanist, or even Gay or Lesbian, should be allowed to teach or work with children as teachers, teacher's aides, or otherwise?

Most certainly not, Wiccans, Pagans, Gays, Lesbians, Satanists all have (Or are supposed to) the same rights in the workplace as you do. If they can do the job, arent intrusive about what they are, then I see no problems.

 

[urnotme]

If we're going to make people hide their symbols we might as well throw out the freedom of religion clause in the US constitution, or at least redefine it.

 

[pensive]

Absolutely not, I would love to give that woman a high five for having a cool head and sticking up for herself.

I think "the woman" in question was actually the customer who was making a scene.

But I agree with you, the cashier seemed to handle herself in a perfectly appropriate way. She should be commended for being able to maintain her own dignity in such a situation.

And Seaside Mists should be commended for sticking up for what she believes is right. If only more people were willing to walk out when situations like that arise.

 

[pensive]

Do you feel that it is right that people of religions who display symbols you find offensive (like the Pentagram or Pentacle) should have to hide them while they work with the public?

I think that "offensiveness" (at least in this context) is a bad indicator for appropriateness in the public sector. To be honest, people get offended over the silliest thing. In fact, next to law suits, I think getting offended is quickly becoming the number one way that we Americans entertain ourselves.

Having said that, I do think that there is room for questions of appropriateness when it comes to attire and accessories while working in the public sector. For example, it would most likely be highly inappropriate for me to go to a customer's site for a business presentation wearing a pentagram the size of a small hubcap. But again, this has to do with the fact that such a symbol (especially one of that size) would be gaudy rather than the religious connotations. (Similarly, I think that wearing a crucifix that was particularly gaudy would be equally inappropriate in such a scenario.)

And, more importantly, since this is a topic that offended the woman greatly, do you believe people who are Wiccan, Pagan, Satanist, or even Gay or Lesbian, should be allowed to teach or work with children as teachers, teacher's aides, or otherwise?

To me, one thing matters when it comes to teachers, teacher's aides, and other educational workers. It's the same question that matters to me when talking about any other pofession: Is the person qualified to perform the duties that the job entails? Is the person capable? Do they do a good job. Their religion (and their sexual orientation) should be irrelevant to the topic at the hand. It's the reason that it's generally illegal for employers to even inquire about these matters when interviewing potential employees.

 

[FadingWhispers3]

and another longer necklace of a bird that had a small Pentagram in it.

Did you know that the pentagram was at one time a christian symbol? The five points representing the five wounds of the Christ. Two in the hands/wrists, two for the feet, and one in the side.

My question is... do you think this woman was out of line for behaving like she did?

I am tempted to say that there is no justification for the buyer to have that kind of outburst. But unfortunately, I myself might also snap if someone displayed certain symbols which I believed to be against my beliefs. For instance, symbols promoting hatred, abuse, etc. I might be offended and be unable to control myself. That would not excuse the action, of course, but we might be able to empathize on some sort of level.

However, I think that people should not live in fear. If christians may wear crosses, then wiccans likewise should be able to wear pentagrams. If all symbols were banned then I believe it would be a boring world. And if only some subset of symbols were allowed, then we risk falling into tyranny.

I fully approve open dialogue, but the situation described does not show any. It is more akin to hysteria.

Do you feel that it is right that people of religions who display symbols you find offensive (like the Pentagram or Pentacle) should have to hide them while they work with the public?

The price we pay for freedom is that all must be free... even that which we may find offensive as long it does not do deliberate harm. Whoever is in power, should take care to tread with generousity and humility in the knowledge that one day they themselves may be the weaker party.

Do you believe people who are Wiccan, Pagan, Satanist, or even Gay or Lesbian, should be allowed to teach or work with children as teachers, teacher's aides, or otherwise?

Yes I do believe they should be allowed to work with and teach children. I believe we must be fair. We cannot allow people who wish to deliberately work harm. And it is our right to protect our children as we see fit. However, those of different ideologies cannot be denied the opportunity to teach children or work with them... regardless of how I or anyone else feels about their lifestyles, being, or beliefs.

 

[gwenmead]

Customers like the one in this situation are why I will never work retail again. They're probably also the inspiration for the bumper sticker, "I know there's a Hell: I work retail."

Yeah. So that customer was way out of line. It's perfectly acceptable to speak up politely and with civility about something that's bothering you - and I'd be willing to bet that if she'd had that attitude, and hadn't thrown a total cow, the cashier would have politely apologized, hidden her necklace, and not lost her job. In an ideal store, the manager would have told her to leave. (And such places exist; I worked at one for awhile!) It isn't okay to freak out and go postal on somebody. Period.

But man. Way to go for the cashier! Good on her for sticking up for herself.

 

[rowena]

My question is... do you think this woman was out of line for behaving like she did?Totally out of line, there is no question about it in my mind.

For the Christians on the forum, would you have done what she did, or would you have thought nothing of it?
I would have thought, "Hey thats pretty cool that she is comfortable enough with being a pagan to wear her necklaces." Then I would have commented on that in a postive way.

Do you feel that it is right that people of religions who display symbols you find offensive (like the Pentagram or Pentacle) should have to hide them while they work with the public?

If I can display my crucifix, then everyone else can display whatever they want. Even if I don't like it, they still have the right to wear it and I have the right to keep my mouth shut about it.

Do you believe people who are Wiccan, Pagan, Satanist, or even Gay or Lesbian, should be allowed to teach or work with children as teachers, teacher's aides, or otherwise?

Of course. Just because they arn't straight christians doesn't mean they are any less qualified to work with children, and are probley more qualified to do so then alot of the people working in the education system today.

 

[arunma]

My question is... do you think this woman was out of line for behaving like she did? For the Christians on the forum, would you have done what she did, or would you have thought nothing of it? Do you feel that it is right that people of religions who display symbols you find offensive (like the Pentagram or Pentacle) should have to hide them while they work with the public?

I think that this woman was extremely out of line. I'm not sure what her religion was (I'm guessing either Christianity or Islam). But if she's a Christian, she should know that Saint Paul taught the Thessalonians to live quiet lives. Yes, we Christians may protest against things that we find ungodly. But we must always do so from a spirit of humility. This takes the swagger out of our protests.

If I were in that same situation, I might have politely asked the cashier about her faith, and I might ask her what she thinks of Christ. But I certainly wouldn't do anything unfriendly or offensive. Assuming this woman is a Christian, I bet the cashier is now turned off to Christianity. She has sinned, to be sure. Christians aren't supposed to offend people with anything but the Gospel.

 

[Alecto]

I think "the woman" in question was actually the customer who was making a scene.

Splat, my bad. In that case, no she had no justification to throw a temper tantrum like a three year old

 

[TrueQ]

I usually don't wear my pentacle when I'm working, but that's not because of any shame or fear I have of Satanism. I work in a place where the uniform is period-appropriate costumes, a pentacle would not fit in and, since my employers deserve my respect (They didn't have to hire me, after all), I don't wear it. I dunno how I'd react if I happened to be wearing it and I got in a fight with a customer. Its pretty likely, though, that I'd be happy to pass off the argument to my manager, I'm a mellow guy by nature, not well-suited to shouting down fanatics, and I trust Boss-man to defend my honor just as well as I could.

Its my current goal in life to one day teach high-schoolers to appreciate the great works of literature that are written throughout the world. So yeah, I sure as sure think that folk of all different beliefs and lifestyles should be allowed to teach and work with kids. Younglings'll learn much, much more from access to as many philosophies about the world than they will from any textbook.

 

[ravenscape]

What a frightful scene. I'm glad that many customers followed your lead and left the store.

I hope the cashier will be able to find a replacement second job without too much difficulty. It's very unsettling to think that she was badgered into quitting. Maybe it will all blow over and her next level boss will make things right. I can hope anyway.

The customer was bad enough, but the boss was WAY over the line. He's lucky she quit. If she'd stayed and left him with the choice of either backing down or taking a formal disciplinary action, he would probably be in violation of at least a couple of fair labor laws.

 

[Bevlina]

What an absolutely ugly scene to witness. It often amazes to me what lengths some people will go just to belittle and ridicule another human being who has every right to her beliefs, and every right to wear whatever she wants to wear.

I am glad people left in disgust. The statement they made by leaving may wake the owner up a bit and make him realise a few things. He went over the top.
That scene, to me, was cruel and most unjust to the cashier.

 

[ContraMundum]

The Boss should be sued.

The woman should get a shrink.

The cashier should repent and turn to Christ.

 

[Alecto]

The Cashier should get a bloody medal

 

[sanaa]

what a disgusting incident . this is religious discrimination , the boss shouldnt have asked the cashier to take off the pentagram . hope she takes legal recourse

 

[urnotme]

I don't think the casheir should have worn a it in the first place but that woman shouldn't have reacted like she did.

 

[psychedelicist]

I've seen that kind of thing happen at my school. We didn't have any rules against wearing religious icons until a christian girl got angry at some wiccans wearing their pentagrams. It was kind of like the story in the OP. As a result, the next year, we were not allowed to wear any religious icons (except crosses of course...)

I can't say I would have reacted in the same way. I probably would have gotten mad after a while.