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Interesting Hadith!

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LittleLambofJesus

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And how do you know that chapter 2 is not poetic? Have you read it in the original ancient Arabic?
Haven't you read our Bible in the Ancient Hebrew as much of our Bible is also Poetry. :thumbsup:

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

In the world, past and present, there are two major types of cultures; the Hebrew (or eastern) culture and the Greek (or western) culture. Both of these cultures view their surroundings, lives, and purpose in ways which would seem foreign to the other. With the exception of a few Bedouin nomadic tribes living in the Near East today, the ancient Hebrew culture has disappeared.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/23_parallel.html

As Hebrew poetry is written much differently than our own Western style of poetry, many do not recognize the poetry which can cause problems when translating or interpreting these passages.
Approximately 75% of the Tenach (Old Testament) is poetry. All of Psalms and Proverbs are Hebrew poetry. Even the book of Genesis is full of Poetry.

There are several reasons the Hebrews used poetry, much of the Torah was sung and was easier to sing too, poetry and songs are easier to memorize than straight texts, Parallel poetry (as in Genesis 1) emphasizes something of great importance, as the creation story is.
 
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sur

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Provide some other material that will help us to get a better context for this hadith. There is no need to charge any of us with half knowledge if all we have to use is this one piece of information. Its funny how quick you are to charge us with half knowledge when you and other Muslims are notorious in using half knowledge (that is being very generous) in speaking to us about the Bible.
No context is needed.
Hadith is self explanatory.
Man spoke a LIE despite knowing the TRUTH.
Earth refused to accept this liar.
u ppl often ask about MIRACLEs of Muhammad(pbuh), this is one of them.
Miracles r SIGNs that testify that this person is sent by God, so that was a SIGN.
 
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Bookofknowledge

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Why should we have stopped? I did explain that the hadith was ambiguous and needed more context. That is why I asked if there was more information for us to put it in context.

Allah has used different methods in Qur'aan to make people understand clearly and there is a methodology used by Al-Bukhari in his Hadith.

To get masters in Qur'aan and Hadith there is a course which takes 4-12 years of study depending on what one wants to achieve.

I am not a scholar and I can give you information based on my limited knowledge and certainly you are asking for more which is good and we thank you for the effort put into Understanding Islam.


I don't understand what you mean; but it is totally irrevelant anyway.

If you couldn't understand what I meant how did you come to the conclusion it's irrevelant?

I agree, but the hadith does not make that claim, and does not addrese the issue at all. This is irrelevant.

I am sure that I made of point of stating that. In fact, I remember asking a question about that specifically. I am trying to stay neutral on that issue. As I have said already, the hadith is ambiguous.

Some times a peable gives way for what is normally not seen as worthy.

All of that is based upon Mohammad's memory being infallable and whether he understood what Gabriel actually said. Remember only Mohammad got the revelation and no one else was able to hear Gabriel and confirm it. Any errors that Mohamamd could have made in the beginning would have been propagated and produced consistent errors throughout. Anyway, this is irrelevant to the hadith.


Prophet Muhammad (SAW) taught Qur'aan to many people not just one which is why there is no connection between him being dependent on what some one else wrote.... Prophet Muhammad (SAW) couldn't read so there would be no point in him teaching from what is written by others.

Think out of the box.

Fair enough; but we have not established that Allah actually punished him with death because of what you purport as a lie. The hadith is too ambiguous for us to make this claim. I think that I stated this from the beginning.

Much of what you are saying is speculation. I asked for you to show me more information that will help us to understand the hadith in a broader context. I did not ask for your opinions. I already pointed out that there are multiple interpretations of what the hadith could mean, and all of the interpreatations can be viewed as equally valild unless we have more information. I don't think that anyone is trying to attack Islam or Mohammad (but I can't be 100%); so, there is no need to defend. All I ask for is more information to give us a better context.

You guys started this thread with a Hadith and now you are saying that you don't have enough information to conclude then why in the world start something which you don't have enough knowledge?

Consult scholars if you need more information.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Allah has used different methods in Qur'aan to make people understand clearly and there is a methodology used by Al-Bukhari in his Hadith.

To get masters in Qur'aan and Hadith there is a course which takes 4-12 years of study depending on what one wants to achieve.
:eek:
No context is needed.
Hadith is self explanatory.
Man spoke a LIE despite knowing the TRUTH.
Earth refused to accept this liar.
u ppl often ask about MIRACLEs of Muhammad(pbuh), this is one of them.
Miracles r SIGNs that testify that this person is sent by God, so that was a SIGN.
Then the Muslims would love our Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation. :thumbsup:

Revelation 12:1 And a Sign, Great, was seen in the Heaven. A woman having been about-cast/clothed the sun, and the moon underneath of the feet of her and on the head of her a crown of-stars, twelve. 2 and having in belly And she is crying-out, trevailing, and being tormented to be bringing forth.
3 And was seen another Sign in the Heaven, and Behold! A great fiery red Dragon having heads, seven, and horns, ten,

Reve 15:1 And I perceived another Sign in the heaven, Great and Marvelous. Messengers, seven, having stripes, seven, the last, that in them are comsummated the wrath of the God.
 
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Oxy2Hydr0

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Secundulus said:
The Hadith doesn't say that what he said was false. It simply claims that he said it and that he died.

Whenever I see your name I read Scandalous instead of Secundulus, woosh !

Anyhow, yes your presentation of the hadeeth in the OP makes it void that the Christian was a lier. That other half of the hadeeth that you ommitted makes it very clear by the phenominal event that took place "against" the Christian for the words he uttered about the Prophet implies a negative notation that his words were false.

Secundulus said:
Imam Al-Bukhari ranks as one of the most eminent scholars who have conferred endless bliss upon the Ummah. The greatest evidence of this is the book of Hadith he compiled, commonly known as Sahih Al-Bukhari, which is universally acknowledged as the most authentic book after the Qur’an.

No one is questioning the hadeeth's authenticity or reliability. All of us understand the hadeeth you posted in its proper CONTEXT that G-d caused the Christian to die for the words he uttered, which then lead to the earth rejecting the body of the man three times

These events in whole give the notion that the Christian was a lier for such a omen phenomenon to occure against him in such an negative fashion.

It would be like someone saying something about Jesus like "Jesus was an imposter Messiah" then the next day he died in his sleep and then his body exploded from combustion, you would see this as a bad omen

Secundulus said:
The entire verse is quoted. There is no other context.

This is the OP:

Interesting Hadith!


The true source of Mohammeds verses

Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814:

Narrated Anas: There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: "Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him."​

You then posted a link to usc.edu that only shows an index of Bukhari hadeeths and not directly to the actual hadeeth it self :

This is straight out of the Hadith by Bukhari. It is from the database at the University of Southern California. You may view it here.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...unnah/bukhari/

If you say that I am making this up, then please post what that particular Hadith actually says.

Now I figure you had no idea how to look up Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814 so you just posted a link to Bukhari index preface.

usc.edu shows the hadeeth in FULL CONTEXT:
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814:

Narrated Anas:​
There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: "Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him." Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is the act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away from them." They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is an act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them." They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and had to leave him thrown (on the ground).​
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html

Here are the facts. You never got your quote directly from usc.edu you got it from some other source (Christian) that TOOK the hadeeth out of context that you copy and pasted from. Of course you didnt have the ardacity to verify what you were reading was true or not before you ran off with it. You thought just because it came from a brethren and it was agaisnt Islam then it was true.
 
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français

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oxy2hydro - It doesn't matter. Even when you read it in context, it still does not says that the Christian didn't write things for him. It just says that somehow or another the person was thrown out of the earth LOL

EDIT: also, you should not be making fun of others and personally insulting them. Just so you know, I could call you a "terrorist." on freejesus.net there was a post about muslims who killed this Dutch guy who had wrote a book on islam. It said how they killed him by slitting is throat and you know what your response was? "CLAP great work!" or something like that. It's all in the archives at freejesus.net.. Give me a few days and I can dig it up for you :)
 
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Oxy2Hydr0

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français said:
Maybe that is why the style of the quran changes dramatically? I mean come on now.. surah 96 is a poetic surah, whereas in surah 2 it is like blunt and not poetic!

Certainly, if the quran were from God, all surahs would be poetic and not just a few select short ones that mohammad could have easily made.

How many times have I told you to stop guessing when you dont know the answer about the Quran ?

The style of the Quran is consistant and does not change.

Now if you feel totally confident and understood what you said do you mind showing some examples using the verses from Surah 96 and comparing them with other verses in the Quran ?

Here, let me help you a bit http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=96&translator=7&mac=&font_name=1&font_size=8
 
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français

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How many times have I told you to stop guessing when you dont know the answer about the Quran ?
Well, considering that I ignore half your posts, I would say 0 times(that I have paid attention with at least.)
The style of the Quran is consistant and does not change.
Wow, well, many people disagree with you. Even islamic sites disagree with you. understanding-islam.com speaks a lot about the meccan and medinan verses, and one of the differences they say is the meccan are short and poetic whereas the medinan are long and not nearly as poetic.

Now if you feel totally confident and understood what you said do you mind showing some examples using the verses from Surah 96 and comparing them with other verses in the Quran ?

Here, let me help you a bit http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=96&translator=7&mac=&font_name=1&font_size=8

Yes.. 96 sounds a lot nice then surah 2 in arabic!
 
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français

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Other than a general change of length, the Medinan Surahs being more prolonged and extensive than the Meccan ones, the character of the Surahs also changed.
http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/essays/cot/t1w11meccasurahmedinian.htm

The sentences are long and unwieldly so that the hearer has to listen carefully or he will miss the rhyme altogether; the language has become prose with rhyming words at intervals. The subject matter is laws, comments on public events, statements of policy, rebukes to those who did not see eye to eye with the prophet, Jews especially, and references to his domestic troubles. Here imagination is weak and stock phrases are dragged in to conceal the poverty of ideas though occasionally the earlier enthusiasm bursts out. (Tritton, Islam, p. 16).


A voice is crying from the very depths of life and impinging forcefully on the Prophet's mind in order to make itself explicit at the level of consciousness. This tone gradually gives way, especially in the Medina period, to a more fluent and easy style as the legal content increases for the detailed organization and direction of the nascent community-state. (Rahman, lslam, p. 30).

Yet the revelations which he received, in Mecca so passionate and overwhelming, seemed in Medina to become increasingly, though perhaps unconsciously, the result of reason and thought. (Glubb, The Life and Times of Muhammad, p. 231).

In the earlier chapters these verses are short, just as the style is living and fiery; in the later chapters they are of lumbering length, prosaic and slow, and the rhyme comes in with often a most absurd effect. (MacDonald, The Religious Attitude and Life in Islam, p. 31).

Yet the style of the Koran shows the change for the worse. As its sincerity, in the deepest sense of the word, seems to diminish, its subject-matter gets more and more mundane and prosaic; and with that the fire, the terseness, the rhymed beauty of the style gradually fades away into prolixity, tameness, obscurity, wearying repetitiousness. (Gairdner, The Reproach of Islam, p. 48).


The style of the Koran, though varying greatly in force and vigour, has for the most part lost the stamp of vivid imagination and poetic fire which marks the earlier Suras. It becomes, as a rule, tame and ordinary both in thought and language. Occasionally, indeed, we still find traces of the former spirit. (Muir, The Life of Mahomet, p. 328).




In Mecca Mohammed was weak, struggling to be accepted, often mocked at and ridiculed. He tried to appeal to the people of Mecca by being compassionate and loving. His teachings condemned violence, injustice, neglect of the poor.
However, after he moved to Medina and his followers grew in strength and number, he became a relentless warrior, intent on spreading his religion by the sword.
http://www.omegaletter.com/articles/articles.asp?ArticleID=5900
 
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Oxy2Hydr0

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français said:
oxy2hydro - It doesn't matter. Even when you read it in context, it still does not says that the Christian didn't write things for him.

If you talked less and listened more you would be dangerous.

Were in the world did you see in my post contesting that the christian wasnt a scribe of our Prophet ? We contested his statement implying that the Quranic revelation came from him, not that he was never a scribe of our prophet.
 
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français

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If you talked less and listened more you would be dangerous.

Were in the world did you see in my post contesting that the christian wasnt a scribe of our Prophet ? We contested his statement implying that the Quranic revelation came from him, not that he was never a scribe of our prophet.

Ok it's not were in the world it's WHERE. If you are constantly showing arabic meanings and such you should at least know basic English first. I have only spoken fluent English for about half my life, and even I knew that.

And secondly, if he was a scribe of the false prophet, it would not be a surprise if he changed things here and there.
 
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peaceful soul

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Originally posted by Oxy2Hydr0

I am responding to this post although it was not directly addressed to me rather than respond to several posts individually.

Anyhow, yes your presentation of the hadeeth in the OP makes it void that the Christian was a lier. That other half of the hadeeth that you ommitted makes it very clear by the phenominal event that took place "against" the Christian for the words he uttered about the Prophet implies a negative notation that his words were false.

What you don't seem to understand is that although it seems rational to believe this, certain words are missing that are needed to link one event to the others. The statement made by the Christian is not directly linked to the action of Allah. We should not conclude 100%, as you have done, that this was some kind of punishment by Allah. Additionally, we should not try to conclude 100% that the 2 events are interconnected. We don't have any conjunctions, adverbs, or prepositions, or adjectives that link. If we had other hadiths concerning this incident, for example, we could do a better job of figuring out what is fact.

No one is questioning the hadeeth's authenticity or reliability. All of us understand the hadeeth you posted in its proper CONTEXT that G-d caused the Christian to die for the words he uttered, which then lead to the earth rejecting the body of the man three times

As I have stated, we should not jump to conclusions without other things considered as stated my paragraph immediately above. If you want to conclude this; so, can I conclude that this hadith is an indictment on Mohammad and his revelation. Both interpretations are just as valid.

These events in whole give the notion that the Christian was a lier for such a omen phenomenon to occure against him in such an negative fashion.

As previously stated, this is very reasonable, but the text is too ambiguous for us to conclude 100% without looking at other equally valid interpretations. Where is the cause and effect ?

It would be like someone saying something about Jesus like "Jesus was an imposter Messiah" then the next day he died in his sleep and then his body exploded from combustion, you would see this as a bad omen

But, if the cause of death was never given in the text, we would not be able to say with 100% certainty that the two were linked. Prove cause and effect.

This is the OP:
You then posted a link to usc.edu that only shows an index of Bukhari hadeeths and not directly to the actual hadeeth it self :



Now I figure you had no idea how to look up Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814 so you just posted a link to Bukhari index preface.

usc.edu shows the hadeeth in FULL CONTEXT:


Here are the facts. You never got your quote directly from usc.edu you got it from some other source (Christian) that TOOK the hadeeth out of context that you copy and pasted from. Of course you didnt have the ardacity to verify what you were reading was true or not before you ran off with it. You thought just because it came from a brethren and it was agaisnt Islam then it was true.

The OP did not post the hadith, but I did; so, it was visible for inspection by everyone. In this particular situation, the part that was posted had no link to the missing part. It did not change its meaning at all since there is no cause and effect. The rest of hadith does not link the two incidents together. It basically tells of two independent events without a connection. This is why other interpretations are equally valid. What I saw were Muslims making the link themselves to make it only one interpretation. Although it is reasonable to believe that this is punishment for the man, it is not conclusive since there is no cause and effect between the statement made by the Christian and his death. This should hopefully be very clear.

I took all of this time to say this so that hopefully everyone, especially Muslims, will give equal interpretation to the potentially negative aspects the statement given by the Christian. Unless one can find a cause and effect between the two parts, the statement made by the Christian presents a negative statement about Mohammad regarding his revelation. Does this mean that the revelation is not true? No, but it equally does not make the possibility go away. This is the last that I will mention about it, hopefully.
 
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peaceful soul

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No context is needed.
Hadith is self explanatory.
Man spoke a LIE despite knowing the TRUTH.
Earth refused to accept this liar.
u ppl often ask about MIRACLEs of Muhammad(pbuh), this is one of them.
Miracles r SIGNs that testify that this person is sent by God, so that was a SIGN.

This is conjecture. Show cause and effect. I posted another post above this one that gives more explanation.
 
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Oxy2Hydr0

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français said:
Ok it's not were in the world it's WHERE. If you are constantly showing arabic meanings and such you should at least know basic English first. I have only spoken fluent English for about half my life, and even I knew that.

Its called the left index finger missing the H key
 
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Islam_mulia

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The true source of Mohammeds verses

Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814:

Narrated Anas: There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: "Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him."​

1. This is unacceptable. You quoted only part of the full hadith and then make an unjustified claim in bold (blue).

2. The context of the full hadith is to show that a person who lied to God would get his punishment (either on earth and the herefafter or both)

3. There is nothing much to assume that the Christian was making a intelligent remark. Muhammad (pbuh) has many scribes, including the Christian, and there could be no chance that the Christian could have invented new things into the written Quran as

3.1 The Quran is read daily at mosques, homes during prayers and gatherings. Any error in reading will immediately be detected by the Prophet himself, his Comapnions or the Muslims.

3.2 The Quran is memorised by many Muslims. In fact, Abu Bakr, the first Caliph, decided to collect the various written Quran right after the demise of the Prophet, because some Muslims who memorised the Quran has been killed in battles.

3.3 The hadith further highlighted to those who thought that the Quran was only written 200 years ago to be in error. The Quran was written during the Prophet's time although the collection of the Quran as a mushaf was made by Zaid, under the direction of Abu Bakr, after the Prophet's demise.

3.4 The written Quran plus the memorisation of the Quran together form a unique check and counter-check that no error could crept into the Quran.

3.5 The name of the Christian in the above was not mentioned. It could be possible that he made the remark in anger or some personal differences he had with the Prophet or the Muslims. No other hadith substantiate his claims that there was other things written by him and was discarded by the Prophet, Abu Bakr, the Companions, other scribes or other Muslims. The hadith and Sirah collected have some that might 'interest' the Christians, and Christian had used them against the Prophet, Islam and the Muslims.... but never found anything about this Chrsitian.

3.6 Without any other evidence, I conclude that the Christian said those things in anger or bec of his differences with the Muslims.
 
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