Intelligent Design - can it even be called science? (*moved thread*)

[Ukrainia]

either evolution works on its own..... or it fails. either it has no external intelligence from start to finish or it needs intelligence IN ITS DESIGN.... so by your own words you are leaning towards ID.

I guess here, we might have a misunderstanding in definitions. I'm leaning toward God using natural selection to design human beings exactly the way he wanted to.

If you want to call that ID, then I'm leaning towards ID. If you want to call that theistic evolution, then I'm leaning towards theistic evolution.

 

[kevlite2020]

semi-blind post: here's my take. Either ID and evolution theory are both science, or they are both religion. Neither of them can be scientifically proven right or wrong. (Can't prove evolution theory wrong because they can just say that it will take more time for something to evolve and we gotta keep waiting and observing for it to happen. Proving evolution theory right would mean seeing something give birth to something else, which is just as scientific as waiting for God to come to earth and reveal Himself to the world).

 

[Blackguard_]

ID is a theory and theories are part of science therefore it is just as much science as the theory of evolution.

But it's not a scientific theory. Science deals in theories about patterns in the observable i.e. material world, and God is neither a pattern nor material.

Not all theories are science. Science has limits.

 

[Sophrosyne]

The point is, can we PROVE that God is doing it? If you try to involve God, you're crossing the line into including personal beliefs. Thats not science.

As it stands, scientifically, its happening by itself.

and who made it to work by itself? nobody or an intelligent designer (God) I believe God made all the species to survive as they have been from the start. My God is very smart and could easily program DNA to do what it is already doing and if he wants to, tweak it and help a species survive that man needs here on earth for his survival until his plans for his creation is complete.

 

[K9_Trainer]

Can you prove it?

The OP is asking if its science or not. I don't doubt what you believe, nor am I trying to say your wrong. But this is where faith comes in. You have faith that God is back there controlling it, that God designed it, that its God's work. You can't scientifically prove it. We can only prove that species do adapt to their environment and it has to do with genetics.

 

[Ukrainia]

semi-blind post: here's my take. Either ID and evolution theory are both science, or they are both religion. Neither of them can be scientifically proven right or wrong. (Can't prove evolution theory wrong because they can just say that it will take more time for something to evolve and we gotta keep waiting and observing for it to happen. Proving evolution theory right would mean seeing something give birth to something else, which is just as scientific as waiting for God to come to earth and reveal Himself to the world).

I agree with some of this but...

That also means nothing in history can be proven. Did the Revolutionary War happen? I am 100% sure it did happen because there are thousands upon thousands of documents that say it did. However, can it be proven through a scientific expirement? No. Science could only say the chance of it happening was of an extremely high liklihood.

Evolution is similar (although obviously the evidence for evolution is not as solid as it is for the Revolutionary War). There is a high degree of evidence for it.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I guess here, we might have a misunderstanding in definitions. I'm leaning toward God using natural selection to design human beings exactly the way he wanted to.

If you want to call that ID, then I'm leaning towards ID. If you want to call that theistic evolution, then I'm leaning towards theistic evolution.

theistic evolution has many facets... some believe God created everything to evolve, some believe God created the universe to evolve life from a single cell and all over the place. Most people want to believe evolution on some level. I think the biggest problem is the force leap from micro to macro evolution that evolutions must have to explain away ID from the process some. I do not believe in macro evolution but I do believe species are designed to adapt or survive I do not believe by error or random chance we get cat from fishes if we just roll the random dice for a billion eons or whatever it takes to satisfy the odds against it happening.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Can you prove it?

The OP is asking if its science or not. I don't doubt what you believe, nor am I trying to say your wrong. But this is where faith comes in. You have faith that God is back there controlling it, that God designed it, that its God's work. You can't scientifically prove it. We can only prove that species do adapt to their environment and it has to do with genetics.

can you prove macroevolution without using examples of microevolution and exaggerating upon them without evidence of actual species inbetween?

 

[Sophrosyne]

my problem with evolution is the lack of a zillion inbetween species muddling things up enough you cannot tell an ape from a man a cat from a dog or a plant from an animal. If evolution where entirely true I would think it would be near impossible to divide anything into species at all. there would be constantly changing species of everything everywhere and there would be men with 4 legs animals with arms and legs... arachnids with 2 legs.... it would look like a random chaotic mess which is what evolution is based upon..... no intelligent driving for or design just chaos, and random luck involved. ever wonder which came first.... the bee or the flower?

 

[BRISH]

A philosophy of science question: Intelligent Design

Hey, I know there is a section on here that deals more with philosophy/science than the singles section (ok, the singles section doesn’t deal with philosophy or science at all) but there are many people here with many interests so I’m posting it here. I’m obviously a Christian, and I do believe God created us, and all things. Other people who believe similarly believe in intelligent design as a view that has scientific potential. By this I mean many scientists who believe in intelligent design believe they can find evidence of a designer through the scientific method.

One of the main analogies that intelligent design proponents have used is the watch analogy. The idea is if a man is walking in the woods and comes upon a watch, the watch has certain characteristics that make it apparent that the watch was created by a person (an intelligent designer). Similarly, humans (and all life) are very complex and therefore also must have been created by an intelligent designer. Here’s the basic logic behind it.

1. A watch is complex.
2. A watch has an intelligent designer.
3. Life is complex.
4. Therefore, life also has an intelligent designer.

Personally, one problem I’ve always had with intelligent design (obviously I believe God created everything, I just don’t believe there a very good scientific argument to show this – or at least I haven’t seen one) is the fact that there would be no point of comparison with anything not designed.

Here’s what I mean. Basically, the watch idea works because we know that there are things created by humans and there are things not created by humans. If some alien life form came to earth and really studied human things made by humans, it would theoretically be able to differentiate human made stuff like a watch, from non-human made stuff like a stone. However, since God has created everything, we can’t say a living creature looks like it was created because when you look at a non-created thing like a stone they are different. No, they’re both created. Or if for instance if we believed God only created the earth, and the rest of the universe was not created, one could create tests to see if there is an actual material difference. But since everything is created by God it is all intelligently designed material so determining what’s intelligently designed isn’t feasible – there is just nothing that is not created to compare it to.

I don’t see how one could test to see if something is intelligently designed if every single thing in the universe is intelligently designed.

Therefore, since there is no way to test intelligent design, even theoretically, it cannot be considered science.

Is my thinking off? Am I thinking about intelligent design all wrong? If intelligent design had some serious science supporting it, I would have no problem accepting it. However, it doesn’t matter to me too much. My Christianity is based off of my faith, and has nothing to do with science experiments. Still, intelligent design is intriguing.

Ok

Now wait...

who'sonsecond?

 

[Blackguard_]

That also means nothing in history can be proven.

...scientifically.

Science is not the only way of gaining knowledge.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Deleted.

 

[Ukrainia]

...scientifically.

Science is not the only way of gaining knowledge.

Yeah, good point. That's what I should have said.

 

[Ukrainia]

Also, I think it's kind of funny that this thread is a million times more popular than my Christmas thread.

You know what this means of course - it's time for an holiday celebrating intelligent design.

Or maybe people just like controversy.

 

[Blackguard_]

it's time for an holiday celebrating intelligent design.

We already have the week, but now an excuse to party all week long.
"I'm celebrating the third day of creation"
"...you mean Wednsday?"

 

[puffca]

Neither ID nor Evolution is science. They are philosophies.
Something, if called science, must be falsifiable. For example, F=MA, is science. The potential way to prove it wrong is to measure F, M and A, and multiply M and A, and see if it is equal to F.

Christianity is not science. There's no way to prove it wrong (or right). This is where faith kicks in.

By the way, I believe in both ID and Evolution, and don't find them contradictary with each other.

 

[smacarena]

I thought it was a political party.

 

[Teufelhund]

I know almost nothing about the teleological argument, I admit. However, isn't that more of a philosophical argument for God, than a scientific argument?

I'm asking if ID can be considered good science. I already know it has poked holes in evolutionary theory, and has produced some really interesting philosophy.

You quoted the watchmaker argument which is a part of the teleological argument. Which is also a philosophical argument for God. ID which is in fact a flawed system of reasoning with a veneer of science is very separate from this. I just wanted to avoid you attacking Aquinas' reasoning which is very good, and lumping it in with the reasoning of those responsible for ID.

 

[Brad2009]

The main underpinning of geologic time-scales that is the weakest IMO is uniformitarianism. A few hundred years of observations on universal 'constants' at a steady state can tell us nothing of any transients that may have occurred or when.

 

[newbeliever02072005]

Mod Hat ON! ​

Thread has been moved from Singles forum to here.​

Here is a copy of the OP to refresh everyone:​

A philosophy of science question: Intelligent Design

Hey, I know there is a section on here that deals more with philosophy/science than the singles section (ok, the singles section doesn’t deal with philosophy or science at all) but there are many people here with many interests so I’m posting it here. I’m obviously a Christian, and I do believe God created us, and all things. Other people who believe similarly believe in intelligent design as a view that has scientific potential. By this I mean many scientists who believe in intelligent design believe they can find evidence of a designer through the scientific method.

One of the main analogies that intelligent design proponents have used is the watch analogy. The idea is if a man is walking in the woods and comes upon a watch, the watch has certain characteristics that make it apparent that the watch was created by a person (an intelligent designer). Similarly, humans (and all life) are very complex and therefore also must have been created by an intelligent designer. Here’s the basic logic behind it.​

1. A watch is complex.
2. A watch has an intelligent designer.
3. Life is complex.
4. Therefore, life also has an intelligent designer.​

Personally, one problem I’ve always had with intelligent design (obviously I believe God created everything, I just don’t believe there a very good scientific argument to show this – or at least I haven’t seen one) is the fact that there would be no point of comparison with anything not designed.​

Here’s what I mean. Basically, the watch idea works because we know that there are things created by humans and there are things not created by humans. If some alien life form came to earth and really studied human things made by humans, it would theoretically be able to differentiate human made stuff like a watch, from non-human made stuff like a stone. However, since God has created everything, we can’t say a living creature looks like it was created because when you look at a non-created thing like a stone they are different. No, they’re both created. Or if for instance if we believed God only created the earth, and the rest of the universe was not created, one could create tests to see if there is an actual material difference. But since everything is created by God it is all intelligently designed material so determining what’s intelligently designed isn’t feasible – there is just nothing that is not created to compare it to.​

I don’t see how one could test to see if something is intelligently designed if every single thing in the universe is intelligently designed.​

Therefore, since there is no way to test intelligent design, even theoretically, it cannot be considered science.​

Is my thinking off? Am I thinking about intelligent design all wrong? If intelligent design had some serious science supporting it, I would have no problem accepting it. However, it doesn’t matter to me too much. My Christianity is based off of my faith, and has nothing to do with science experiments. Still, intelligent design is intriguing.​

Please keep in mind the CF rules and if you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.


God bless,




Mod Hat Off!
​