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Intelligence Inquiry

The Righterzpen

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Right now the state of ID is a failed scientific hypothesis and equally failed political movement.

The current state of ID isn't pretty.

Evolutionary theory is (also) a failed hypothesis based on your own definition, because you can not prove life came about by random chance any more than someone else can prove life came about on account of intelligent design.

Now philosophically, if you look at the evidence collected and what direction does it point you? That's another issue. And based on your observer bias; you would never admit that it points you in the direction of intelligent design. (Now would you?)

So....

This basically boils down to the philosophical argument between the theist and the atheist of: "It doesn't matter if your right, it only matters if I'm right."
 
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VirOptimus

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Evolutionary theory is (also) a failed hypothesis based on your own definition, because you can not prove life came about by random chance any more than someone else can prove life came about on account of intelligent design.

Now philosophically, if you look at the evidence collected and what direction does it point you? That's another issue. And based on your observer bias; you would never admit that it points you in the direction of intelligent design. (Now would you?)

So....

This basically boils down to the philosophical argument between the theist and the atheist of: "It doesn't matter if your right, it only matters if I'm right."

The ToE is seperate from abiogenesis.
 
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The Righterzpen

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That's not at all how this works. Theories do not become "laws" in science. In fact, the very term "law" is a somewhat archaic term within science.

LOL - "theories" move to "law" when an observable occurrence bears 100% consistency in all experiments. (I.E. you drop a rock from a building it always falls down. That's the "law of gravity".)

The term "law" is a very valid term within science. This is why mathematical therms consistently produce the same end result. When ever you get on your computer and access the web; that is all only possible because of "law". Planets maintain orbits, they shift and reestablish orbits. All of their interactions as items moving within a solar system are based on the laws of physics. Law is the absolute that makes any of this possible and honest scientists acknowledge that.

Again, observational bias. If what you consistently observe is ordered and law based, how is an archaic theory based on random chance still around?

(Want to talk about political agendas.....)
 
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The Righterzpen

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The ToE is seperate from abiogenesis.

No it's not, because you can not get away from the fact that what you are observing is still ordered. TOE is based in chaotic chance; and it does not matter what aspect (or how minuscule) of a portion of at the timeline you are looking at.
 
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VirOptimus

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No it's not, because you can not get away from the fact that what you are observing is still ordered. TOE is based in chaotic chance; and it does not matter what aspect (or how minuscule) of a portion of at the timeline you are looking at.

Are you a sockpuppet of Kennys ID? You have all the same incorrect ”points”.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Are you a sockpuppet of Kennys ID? You have all the same incorrect ”points”.

..... Because you can't answer rational debate???

Maybe you need to "evolve" a little more?
 
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VirOptimus

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..... Because you can't answer rational debate???

Maybe you need to "evolve" a little more?

Uhm, your posts isnr ”rational”, they are misinformed. You seem to know nothing about science and the ToE.

The debate is also long gone, the ToE is established science, YEC ands its ilk (ID) is just a silly fringe group mostly located in tje US thats wholly irrelevant to science and academia.
 
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pitabread

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Evolutionary theory is (also) a failed hypothesis based on your own definition

I didn't provide a definition, but I would refer to the definition of "hypothesis" per any college science textbook.

LOL - "theories" move to "law" when an observable occurrence bears 100% consistency in all experiments. (I.E. you drop a rock from a building it always falls down. That's the "law of gravity".)

This is completely incorrect.

Laws in science are highly specific descriptions of certain phenomena, typically expressed mathematically.

Theories in science are broad explanatory descriptions of phenomena. Laws may be part of a scientific theory (e.g. there is Newton's theory of gravity of which Netwton's laws of gravity are part). But again, theories in no way "graduate" to become scientific laws.

The term "law" is a very valid term within science.

I never said it wasn't valid. I said the term is archaic.

Again, observational bias. If what you consistently observe is ordered and law based, how is an archaic theory based on random chance still around?

Your question is framed around an incomplete understanding of scientific law, theory and the theory of evolution.
 
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pitabread

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Evolutionary theory is (also) a failed hypothesis based on your own definition

I didn't give a definition. For the record, I would refer to the definition of hypothesis as can be found in any science textbook.

, because you can not prove life came about by random chance any more than someone else can prove life came about on account of intelligent design.

Science is not about strictly "proving" things though. It's about the relative weight of evidence that supports a particular hypothesis or collection of hypotheses.

ID currently does not have any empirically validated methods of detecting biological design. There have been some attempts put forth, but nothing empirically validated. You can search the ID literature (and I have); you won't find any.

And based on your observer bias; you would never admit that it points you in the direction of intelligent design. (Now would you?)

If the evidence supported ID, then I would support ID. I actually think ID is an incredibly intriguing idea. The problem is that at the moment that is all it is: just an idea.

This is why I'm highly critical of what ID proponents put forth scientifically, because it order to support ID (especially in lieu of biological evolution), they need a coherent, testable scientific hypothesis for ID. And that would include a process/methodology by which ID was effected on biological organisms on this planet.

ID proponents don't have any of that. This is why I repeat myself when I say that creationists advocating ID appear to know little to nothing about it. Certainly the OP doesn't and from their own words, they have no interest in critically examining ID to see if its even valid science.

This basically boils down to the philosophical argument between the theist and the atheist of: "It doesn't matter if your right, it only matters if I'm right."

Incorrect. It boils down to what the evidence shows. Right now, all investigation points to the theory of evolution.

Also, this is NOT about atheism vs theism. Plenty of theists also accept the theory of evolution as an explanation for the diversity of life on Earth.
 
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inquiring mind

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ID proponents don't have any of that. This is why I repeat myself when I say that creationists advocating ID appear to know little to nothing about it. Certainly the OP doesn't and from their own words, they have no interest in critically examining ID to see if its even valid science.
Let me remind you, the OP title and all my OP comments were questions, and stated as such. So, you can refrain from your standard playbook comments.
 
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Yttrium

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i will give you 2. the first one is a minimal complexity. this protein for instance has a minimal barrier of about 310 amino acids:

Construction of a minimum-size functional flagellin of Escherichia coli.

it means that even if you will remove\change a single amino acid the protein will not function anymore.

Are you suggesting that this particular protein is a barrier for evolutionary change in all living things?

the second barrier is the design itself. a wing for instance is clearly a product of design. therefore only design can explain the existence of a code for a wing in the first place (even if evolution is possible).

Weren't you the one that several of us already talked about the wing with? You know, how it was something very easy for evolution to handle? Because all the parts were already there, they just had to be modified a bit? Please go back to the Venus fly trap. You were much better off with that one.

In any case, you're back to an argument from incredulity, not a mechanism.
 
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pitabread

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Let me remind you, the OP title and all my OP comments were questions, and stated as such. So, you can refrain from your standard playbook comments.

Was it not you that wrote this earlier in the thread?

Validating ID is not what I'm concerned about.

If you've changed your mind since that quote, then by all means I will update my post. But I can only go by things you have stated in this thread.
 
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inquiring mind

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Was it not you that wrote this earlier in the thread?



If you've changed your mind since that quote, then by all means I will update my post. But I can only go by things you have stated in this thread.
Yes, I wrote that because I'm not qualified to validate ID. I'm interested in discussion and other's opinion on the matter.
 
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pitabread

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Yes, I wrote that because I'm not qualified to validate ID. I'm interested in discussion and other's opinion on the matter.

My opinion is that if one is wondering why ID is not taught as a scientific alternative to evolution, they should start by evaluating the scientific state of ID. And if that individual states they have no interest in doing so, then in my opinion they are missing a big piece of the picture.
 
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pitabread

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Evolution assumes that organisms exist with all the complexity that they have and how those complexities interact with the environment (i.e. their "application") - all by chance.

First of all there's a lot of confusion in this sentence.

The theory of evolution is not about pure chance. I don't know where you learned about evolution, while the processes may be unpredictable, they also are not purely random. Natural selection for example is the exact opposite of random chance, as selective pressures can "direct" a population's evolution in response to environmental pressures.

Second, when I say "application", I'm specifically referring to the application of knowledge based on the theory of evolution to solve real-world problems.

For example:

  • The aforementioned scenario I described where the knowledge of the evolution of genomes is applied to detect functional regions of said genomes.
  • The construction of phylogenetic trees to track pathogens and determine the origin of disease outbreaks.
  • Utilizing an understanding of selective pressures on populations of organisms in the administration of antibiotics, pesticides, etc.
If what is observed <snip>

Your example effectively implies that those involved in the diagnosis of human remains have no understanding of physiology of human beings. It's an incredibly odd example given that those trained in the study of human remains, the recognition of things like diseases or variations in populations is precisely something they would be scrutinizing.

I took a paleontology course in University and one of the things I remember being most impressed with was the sheer amount of analytical work that goes into scrutinizing the remains of organisms. This includes not only the study of the bones themselves, but studying behaviors (via analysis of trace fossils), population sizes, environmental conditions, and so on.

I think you're not giving the fictional paleontologists in your scenario any credit.

So moral of the story is you can not make assumptions on evidence you don't have. Thus the same thing you accuse the ID people of not having - (by the way).

I never accused "ID people" of not having evidence. And I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth to that effect.

What I said, for clarity's sake, is the current state of ID science sits at a failed hypothesis. And that IDists have yet to come up with an empirically verified methodology for detection of biological design in organisms.

If you believe otherwise, point me to where they have done so. And for the record, I've read literature by Behe, Dembski and Meyer, so I'm familiar with their respective works.
 
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inquiring mind

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My opinion is that if one is wondering why ID is not taught as a scientific alternative to evolution, they should start by evaluating the scientific state of ID. And if that individual states they have no interest in doing so, then in my opinion they are missing a big piece of the picture.
As they say, opinions are plentiful.
 
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