Intellectual constructs

[Tom 1]

Re. This image, what it reminded me of was discussions I’ve either had or listened to with militant atheists who doggedly insist that their views are absolute, rational and fundamentally reflect reality. Pushed for detail however what I’ve usually come across are underlying arguments that essentially boil down to ‘I think this because such and such a person said so’, or arguments based on knowledge within a narrow field of scientific inquiry, extrapolated out to form a kind of simplified worldview. I’m not saying that is representative, that’s just my experience. I’m curious about atheism as a position though, to me it just seems like an intellectual construct of sorts, rooted in the various avenues of thought pursued to find or entirely reject meaning following (to put it simply for the sake of argument) Nietzsche’s ‘God is dead’. To me it seems hollow, without real substance or content, and I think that shows itself in a variety of ways, but I find it interesting to discuss as it fills out my own sense of what ‘meaning’ is all about.
Anyway, a bit of a ramble there but I’m interested to hear what people think about the idea summed up in his cartoon, i.e how people go about creating their own mini-realities and what the affects of this are on individuals and society.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

View attachment 218816Re. This image, what it reminded me of was discussions I’ve either had or listened to with militant atheists who doggedly insist that their views are absolute, rational and fundamentally reflect reality. Pushed for detail however what I’ve usually come across are underlying arguments that essentially boil down to ‘I think this because such and such a person said so’, or arguments based on knowledge within a narrow field of scientific inquiry, extrapolated out to form a kind of simplified worldview. I’m not saying that is representative, that’s just my experience. I’m curious about atheism as a position though, to me it just seems like an intellectual construct of sorts, rooted in the various avenues of thought pursued to find or entirely reject meaning following (to put it simply for the sake of argument) Nietzsche’s ‘God is dead’. To me it seems hollow, without real substance or content, and I think that shows itself in a variety of ways, but I find it interesting to discuss as it fills out my own sense of what ‘meaning’ is all about.
Anyway, a bit of a ramble there but I’m interested to hear what people think about the idea summed up in his cartoon, i.e how people go about creating their own mini-realities and what the affects of this are on individuals and society.

Hi Tom,

I'm not against having someone, even an atheist, tell me that he/she has been convinced by some particular scholar, assuming that he/she did the work and read, digested and understood that scholar's reasons and viewpoint. However, what I do get irritated with is when people, whether religious or irreligious, fail to triangulate their notions about truth, and they thus fail as well to do balanced research on any given subject.

So, I would say your cartoon is basically correct, but we should realize that more than just atheists do this. In fact, this kind of approach to holding a viewpoint becomes an excuse for a lot of things in life, and not just about religion.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Tom 1]

Hi Tom,

I'm not against having someone, even an atheist, tell me that he/she has been convinced by some particular scholar, assuming that he/she did the work and read, digested and understood that scholar's reasons and viewpoint. However, what I do get irritated with is when people, whether religious or irreligious, fail to triangulate their notions about truth, and they thus fail as well to do balanced research on any given subject.

So, I would say your cartoon is basically correct, but we should realize that more than just atheists do this. In fact, this kind of approach to holding a viewpoint becomes an excuse for a lot of things in life, and not just about religion.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

True, yes. That was just the first thing that came to mind.

 

[Little Lantern]

we should realize that more than just atheists do this. In fact, this kind of approach to holding a viewpoint becomes an excuse for a lot of things in life, and not just about religion.

I actually initially read the cartoon from a "religious" perspective because the first thing that came to my mind was denominations . . . Substantiates your comment 2PhiloVoid. Mindset has great influence over interpretation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

True, yes. That was just the first thing that came to mind.

On the other side of the equation, we might also consider the "emotional burden" that may be involved with a person's motivation to learn some subject matter, or to consider or re-consider the value of the Christian faith. So, for instance, if a person was a Christian but experienced some kind of emotional trauma in his life that was perhaps brought on by involvement with the Christian faith, it isn't uncommon for such a person to develop an avoidance of the faith as well as a lack of motivation (or resentment) to reconsider his understanding of it. This avoidance can also manifest itself as a kind of bias where that person ONLY seeks out sources/literature that buttress that atheist's point of view and dismisses all those of Christians.

 

[Tom 1]

On the other side of the equation, we might also consider the "emotional burden" that may be involved with a person's motivation to learn some subject matter, or to consider or re-consider the value of the Christian faith. So, for instance, if a person was a Christian but experienced some kind of emotional trauma in his life that was perhaps brought on by involvement with the Christian faith, it isn't uncommon for such a person to develop an avoidance of the faith as well as a lack of motivation (or resentment) to reconsider his understanding of it. This avoidance can also manifest itself as a kind of bias where that person ONLY seeks out sources/literature that buttress that atheist's point of view and dismisses all those of Christians.

Yeah I wonder about that, the underlying motivations. My parents are/were atheists and, as I know them, I kind of get their reasons. In online discussions it often seems to come down to people getting stuck on particular ideas and the personal doesn’t often come through. Beyond that these kind of discussions get me thinking about how to identify and quantify meaning, as in the actual, real life effects that ideas and beliefs have.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yeah I wonder about that, the underlying motivations. My parents are/were atheists and, as I know them, I kind of get their reasons. In online discussions it often seems to come down to people getting stuck on particular ideas and the personal doesn’t often come through. Beyond that these kind of discussions get me thinking about how to identify and quantify meaning, as in the actual, real life effects that ideas and beliefs have.

I think that identifying and quantifying meaning is important, especially if we are running into various arguments posed by those who are atheists. But--and I think this is a big "but" that a lot of Christian miss--we need to keep in mind that despite however adept we may be at identifying and quantifying meaning within our interlocutions with atheists, we should always keep a "whole person" diagnosis in mind.

For instance, my wife won't go to church anymore. I try to get her to go, and I've tried to do so for years, but no matter how well I try to explain the essence of the Christian faith, she refuses. She'd rather "believe" at home. The reason this all came about is because she was verbally abused by her mother when she was young, and then later, at church, she happened to run into one or two Christians who thought she wasn't "spiritual enough" and got in her face about her apparent lack of "spirituality." Well, needless to say, she thought to herself, "I don't have to put up with this, and I'm not going to....period."

Obviously, you and I can say to her, "Well, we feel bad that you were abused as a child and that some Christians in the church made you feel similar feelings, but the Bible says we shouldn't neglect the gathering of ourselves since it's God's Will for us to do so, and He knows best," or something similar to that.

Now, take the kind of thing that resembles my wife's emotional state, and heighten that to a more massive level, and we can see an atheist emerge if the right 'ideas' are added to the mixture from atheist sources that tell the person something to the effect that, "...you don't have to put up with this any longer."

So, we need to be constantly aware that there is more than just sinful resistance involved with the typical atheist. Sure, some of these folks are just corrupt; but some of them are emotionally struggling individuals who have been damaged by the Church or have experienced deep letdowns in life that play into their un-conversion and holding strongly to atheism.

 

[Tom 1]

I actually initially read the cartoon from a "religious" perspective because the first thing that came to my mind was denominations . . . Substantiates your comment 2PhiloVoid. Mindset has great influence over interpretation.

I suppose I find the idea of denominations, and issues like the weight of tradition in some churches and the ‘thin’ theology in others, less of an issue because there is so much room for opinion and differences in practice. It does cause a lot of friction for some people though, I agree.

 

[Tom 1]

I think that identifying and quantifying meaning is important, especially if we are running into various arguments posed by those who are atheists. But--and I think this is a big "but" that a lot of Christian miss--we need to keep in mind that despite however adept we may be at identifying and quantifying meaning within our interlocutions with atheists, we should always keep a "whole person" diagnosis in mind.

For instance, my wife won't go to church anymore. I try to get her to go, and I've tried to do so for years, but no matter how well I try to explain the essence of the Christian faith, she refuses. She'd rather "believe" at home. The reason this all came about is because she was verbally abused by her mother when she was young, and then later, at church, she happened to run into one or two Christians who thought she wasn't "spiritual enough" and got in her face about her apparent lack of "spirituality." Well, needless to say, she thought to herself, "I don't have to put up with this, and I'm not going to....period."

Obviously, you and I can say to her, "Well, we feel bad that you were abused as a child and that some Christians in the church made you feel similar feelings, but the Bible says we shouldn't neglect the gathering of ourselves since it's God's Will for us to do so, and He knows best," or something similar to that.

Now, take the kind of thing that resembles my wife's emotional state, and heighten that to a more massive level, and we can see an atheist emerge if the right 'ideas' are added to the mixture from atheist sources that tell the person something to the effect that, "...you don't have to put up with this any longer."

So, we need to be constantly aware that there is more than just sinful resistance involved with the typical atheist. Sure, some of these folks are just corrupt; but some of them are emotionally struggling individuals who have been damaged by the Church or have experienced deep letdowns in life that play into their un-conversion and holding strongly to atheism.

Yes you’re right - do you think my post is too provocative? I wanted it to come across that way to some extent to draw out a variety of responses, but maybe I overdid it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes you’re right - do you think my post is too provocative? I wanted it to come across that way to some extent to draw out a variety of responses, but maybe I overdid it.

No, I think your post is really good for the sake of discussion. I have no criticism of it really. My responses have been simply given to offer some "fleshing out" of the subject. But, this isn't to say that what I've offered is in some way exhaustive. There are other aspects of it that can be delved into. There is the original point that you made that people (atheists) seem to be selective in the defense of their atheism. So, if you want to continue on that strand of the overall issue, I see no reason why not. ...besides, I do believe that despite various emotional complications, people are culpable to various levels for what they believe.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

View attachment 218816Re. This image, what it reminded me of was discussions I’ve either had or listened to with militant atheists who doggedly insist that their views are absolute, rational and fundamentally reflect reality. Pushed for detail however what I’ve usually come across are underlying arguments that essentially boil down to ‘I think this because such and such a person said so’, or arguments based on knowledge within a narrow field of scientific inquiry, extrapolated out to form a kind of simplified worldview. I’m not saying that is representative, that’s just my experience. I’m curious about atheism as a position though, to me it just seems like an intellectual construct of sorts, rooted in the various avenues of thought pursued to find or entirely reject meaning following (to put it simply for the sake of argument) Nietzsche’s ‘God is dead’. To me it seems hollow, without real substance or content, and I think that shows itself in a variety of ways, but I find it interesting to discuss as it fills out my own sense of what ‘meaning’ is all about.
Anyway, a bit of a ramble there but I’m interested to hear what people think about the idea summed up in his cartoon, i.e how people go about creating their own mini-realities and what the affects of this are on individuals and society.

...I think we've both experienced this, Tom, especially over in the Christian Apologetics section here at CF.

The cartoon you chose does seem to hit the nail on the head, especially that third panel. But, of course, then we begin to get into all of those various substrata within the field of epistemology, and it's a mess, really. I'm not surprised that in today's (postmodern) world that atheists do what they do. We Christians do some of the same thing ...