Institutionalization of MJ Started the Change....

[annier]

In Deuteronomy this passage is speaking of the king people of Israel had, from choosing a king, and it fits Zedekiah, as well as a couple of other kings of the Kingdom of Judah, in that general period of time, as well as a king over the Kingdom of Israel earlier, to the north. David, who was the start of that line of kings in Judah, was put in the place of king after the people had made the demand, with Yahweh's own choice for the man after God's own heart, and it was within the covenant, which David as king promoted to the people, while Yahweh then made a distinct covenant with David for an heir of his line to always be king that is enthroned.

It is the Davidic covenant that makes the Davidic line propsper, Not the covenant made at Sinai. That is the point of my post. To put it in context of the book of Hebrews. Hebrews asks why another priest is called, by another order? Because the priesthood which the law gives is WEAK. If the kings which the law gives had been sufficient, then there would be no need for another covenant. Quite simple really.

 

[FredVB]

Okay I guess I understand, but I still point out that the Law as I mentioned provided for a king over the people of Israel, and Saul was put in place for that, and with his disobedience David was selected for it. There would still be a king from the Law that way. The covenant Yahweh had with David did provide for the kings of his line.

 

[annier]

Okay I guess I understand, but I still point out that the Law as I mentioned provided for a king over the people of Israel, and Saul was put in place for that, and with his disobedience David was selected for it. There would still be a king from the Law that way.

Ok, let me put it in terms of new covenant teachings of Paul. The latter covenant made with the David and the Davidic throne, does not nullify a previous covenant.
Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

The covenant Yahweh had with David did provide for the kings of his line.

But it did not disannul the previous requirement of the law is all.

 

[FredVB]

Indeed, the law was not nullified, but those with their life in Messiah are not under it, that is, to be condemned, as that would come from any shortcoming in obedience, and Messiah took care of that for his redeemed. And David himself was promoting the covenant of Yahweh with the people of Israel to the kingdom as the king, even with traveling around the land to do that. That he did that did an important job in preserving the observation of the covenant, even when it would later only be continued with a remnant. And Jews indeed continue as is proper with being Jews even with coming to Christian belief.

 

[FredVB]

The Torah is immutable. His law is law, yesterday, today and forever. Yeshua is my king, and he will reign as such over all the world, whether the world like it or not.

Christ is returning to reign as king, and with full authority. What Christ has accomplished is for fulfillment of all the requirement for the sacrifice, the priesthood, and the way to be made clean with regard to sin, which is what separates any from Yahweh. Ceremonies that may continue are for Jews, gentiles do not need to become Jews and so observe those. The Law for any is for the morality to be lived, this never changes, and it is in Bible teaching. And it is required for all under his lordship though it is not all observed now to avoid idolatry, sexual immorality, meat from animals that were strangled, and the blood.

 

[visionary]

Christ is returning to reign as king, and with full authority. What Christ has accomplished is for fulfillment of all the requirement for the sacrifice, the priesthood, and the way to be made clean with regard to sin, which is what separates any from Yahweh. Ceremonies that may continue are for Jews, gentiles do not need to become Jews and so observe those. The Law for any is for the morality to be lived, this never changes, and it is in Bible teaching. And it is required for all under his lordship though it is not all observed now to avoid idolatry, sexual immorality, meat from animals that were strangled, and the blood.

Ahhhh... so now that which God has called His Law??

Ex 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to His Commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

is now the Jew's law....really??

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning The Feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are My Feasts.

Why did Yeshua say the Sabbath which is at the heart of the TEN is "made for man" instead of saying "made for the Jew"? And why doesn't all believers believe it is for them?

Ps 1:2 But his delight is in the Law of the LORD; and in His Law doth he meditate day and night.
Ps 78:10 They kept not the Covenant of God, and refused to walk in His Law;
Deu 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and His Commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever.

Just how many times does scripture have to say "HIS COMMANDMENTS" before believers acknowledge His sovereignty and obey??

1 Jon 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep His Commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not His Commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. .... 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep His Commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. ... 3:24 And he that keepeth His Commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us..... 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His Commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments: and His Commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after His Commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Please note that all these statements were written and sent to all the believers after the Acts 15 incident you quoted.

 

[FredVB]

Ahhhh... so now that which God has called His Law is now the Jew's law....really?? Why did Yeshua say the Sabbath which is at the heart of the TEN is "made for man" instead of saying "made for the Jew"? And why doesn't all believers believe it is for them? Just how many times does scripture have to say "HIS COMMANDMENTS" before believers acknowledge His sovereignty and obey??
Please note that all these statements were written and sent to all the believers after the Acts 15 incident you quoted.

Of course any thing Christ or his apostles said to do is for all believers to do. The commandments are left for believers to do, for morality to Yahweh in living. Why don't all believers believe that resting on the holy day that Yahweh said he gave, for more opportunity for coming to him, is better? You would have to ask those who don't believe that. Yet they can say from Romans 14:5-6 that they can follow their conscience and you or others shouldn't judge them, or because of Colossians 2:16-17. The Law is still the real law from Yahweh. But there aren't Levites and a Levitical priesthood active for it now, with their sacrifices, or any way to be made clean from sin through them, Christ is the one who is really fulfilling it. If gentile believers are not to be expected to become Jewish from what was said from the apostles and God's Spirit in Acts 15, what do you think there still is to keep Jews distinct?

 

[mishkan]

It is the Davidic covenant that makes the Davidic line propsper, Not the covenant made at Sinai.

Not true. Ever read a little piece of poetry called Psalm 119?

EVERYTHING to do with the success of Israel is contingent upon the Torah.

To put it in context of the book of Hebrews.

Have you ever noticed that Hebrews starts out focusing on the Davidic dynasty, and how everything is about David?

Hebrews asks why another priest is called, by another order? Because the priesthood which the law gives is WEAK.

I think this whole "priesthood" thing is completely misunderstood. We are taught to put the cart before the horse when reading Hebrews. The goal of that discussion in Hebrews is to point us back to David. He is the key to interpreting almost everything in the Bible.

If the kings which the law gives had been sufficient, then there would be no need for another covenant. Quite simple really.

Whaaaat???

 

[visionary]

Of course any thing Christ or his apostles said to do is for all believers to do. The commandments are left for believers to do, for morality to Yahweh in living. Why don't all believers believe that resting on the holy day that Yahweh said he gave, for more opportunity for coming to him, is better? You would have to ask those who don't believe that. Yet they can say from Romans 14:5-6 that they can follow their conscience and you or others shouldn't judge them, or because of Colossians 2:16-17. The Law is still the real law from Yahweh. But there aren't Levites and a Levitical priesthood active for it now, with their sacrifices, or any way to be made clean from sin through them, Christ is the one who is really fulfilling it. If gentile believers are not to be expected to become Jewish from what was said from the apostles and God's Spirit in Acts 15, what do you think there still is to keep Jews distinct?

You missed the point. God never called His Laws or Commandments the Jew's Laws. Yeshua didn't either. Col 2:16-17 is not a negative in relationship to the feasts. Just a Halacha on how you relate to others who are keeping it differently but not changing times or laws..

 

[annier]

Not true. Ever read a little piece of poetry called Psalm 119?

What???? Psalm 119 was written after the Davidic covenant was made. So this proves nothing at all.

EVERYTHING to do with the success of Israel is contingent upon the Torah.

My post spoke of covenants, so your response using "torah" does not address anything. Torah spans several covenants Mishkan. Which as we are taught by Paul,
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Have you ever noticed that Hebrews starts out focusing on the Davidic dynasty, and how everything is about David?

Neither does this address anything I said.

I think this whole "priesthood" thing is completely misunderstood. We are taught to put the cart before the horse when reading Hebrews. The goal of that discussion in Hebrews is to point us back to David. He is the key to interpreting almost everything in the Bible.

Again, this doesn't answer my post either.




Mishkan, I spoke distinctly of covenant. Mainly the Sinai covenant vs the covenant made with David. The Davidic covenant was not in violation of the law given through Moses, does not mean it is put into effect by the Mosaic covenant. As I believe Hebrews above teaches, The covenant law given at Sinai by the hand of Moses, could not disannul the promises. This is different than thinking, or saying that the law through Moses put into effect the Davidic promises. The same is true for the covenant which was before the law through Moses.

 

[FredVB]

You missed the point. God never called His Laws or Commandments the Jew's Laws. Yeshua didn't either. Col 2:16-17 is not a negative in relationship to the feasts. Just a Halacha on how you relate to others who are keeping it differently but not changing times or laws..

I don't think of the ten commandments as the Jews' Law. Yet in light of what of what we are told to do, in Acts 15, what specifically would you say some, gentile believers, are not to be required to do? Consider that the Passover as said in Exodus 12:43-48 is to be observed as it is by those who are people of Israel, not others.

 

[AbbaLove]

Have you ever noticed that Hebrews starts out focusing on the Davidic dynasty, and how everything is about David?

Not True! What translation are you reading? Hebrews is all about Yeshua, the Great High Priest. The only mention of David is in Hebrews 11:32 - "And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets,"

I think this whole "priesthood" thing is completely misunderstood. We are taught to put the cart before the horse when reading Hebrews. The goal of that discussion in Hebrews is to point us back to David. He is the key to interpreting almost everything in the Bible.

Not true! If this viewpoint isn't representative of orthodox Judaism then i'm not a Messianic Christian.

The goal of "interpreting almost everything in the Bible" and especially the book of Hebrews is to point us to Yeshua and Adonai Elohim. Elohim is the aspect of justice, Adonai the aspect of mercy. David was never called a "Wonderful Counselor," the "KING of kings," the "Prince of Peace," or "High Priest."

Isaiah 9:6-7 NKJV
6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

To surmise that the "throne of David" is reserved for only David to occupy and not Yeshua is nowhere even eluded to in the Book of Hebrews. It is the zeal of the Lord of hosts that will perform the following Himself ~ "the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end" ... "upon His kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

Revelation 19:16
And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING Of Kings, And LORD Of Lords.

 

[Meowzltov]

HUH? RCC authority? Um are you being snide Vis? And there is no Sanhedrin today. The rabbinate remains to uphold the teachings and authority of that Sanhedrin.

Actually the Sanhedron has been reestablished.

 

[Meowzltov]

I have no problem with institutional Christianity.

 

[FredVB]

I didn't name this thread actually. I used the word institutionalization in a response to a post, when it was spit from that thread, it was used in the phrase for the title to this thread. I do not say institutionalization itself is bad, but that process was losing things originally present of the followers of Christ.