Instigating Headship/Submission?

[whatseekye]

I disagree. My husband is a non-believer yet he is the head and he loves me as Christ loves the church. He may not know what exactly that means and he may not know Christ but he still does it. And though he does not believe I should still submit.

I know what you are saying. I thought of this shortly after I posted but was busy with something for a few minutes. I would say in this case, it's a special case of how a believing wife submits in a marriage to a nonbelieving husband. I would say that if the husband is a nonbeliever, then he doesn't know what it means to love his wife as Christ loves the church. But the nonbelieving husband can love his wife with the most beautiful and profound love. The believing wife in that marriage is truely blessed, because it seems to be the grace of God in the situation.

 

[Svt4Him]

First and foremost, the husband must be submitted to Christ in a personal relationship with him.

Actually we have to obey God in spite of what other do. To say I need to love my wife like Christ loves the church WHEN she does something isn't really loving her like Christ loved the church. We obey God because we realize what He's done for us.

 

[whatseekye]

Actually we have to obey God in spite of what other do. To say I need to love my wife like Christ loves the church WHEN she does something isn't really loving her like Christ loved the church. We obey God because we realize what He's done for us.

I agree with you. For the woman to submit to her husband as to the Lord, the woman must be in a relationship with Jesus Christ (but it doesn't mean her husband has to know Jesus).

In order for the husband to love his wife as Jesus loves the church, the husband must know Jesus and be submitted to him.

Each of these things can be separate. But we are talking in the specific case of a young woman who believes in Jesus and wants to know how to instigate headship in her fiancee and/or husband. I think she wants to know how the relationship works when it's working well.

But seriously, I do agree with what you are saying. Because what you describe easily turns in to a game where you say "I'll do what's right when you deserve it". That's fundamentally opposed to any sense of Christian love in marriage.

 

[whatseekye]

I agree with you. For the woman to submit to her husband as to the Lord, the woman must be in a relationship with Jesus Christ (but it doesn't mean her husband has to know Jesus).

In order for the husband to love his wife as Jesus loves the church, the husband must know Jesus and be submitted to him.

Each of these things can be separate. But we are talking in the specific case of a young woman who believes in Jesus and wants to know how to instigate headship in her fiancee and/or husband. I think she wants to know how the relationship works when it's working well.

But seriously, I do agree with what you are saying. Because what you describe easily turns in to a game where you say "I'll do what's right when you deserve it". That's fundamentally opposed to any sense of Christian love in marriage.

I'd like to add something here. We are talking about the man being the head in the marriage in a Christian sense aren't we? We aren't talking about male-dominated marriage as the model for Christian marriage. We all know what male-dominated marriage looks like. It's a cultural stereotype and a cultural reality in some cases of marriages we witness. But that's not what we are talking about here, is it?

If we are talking about the husband being the head in a Christian marriage, then isn't it based upon the husband *really* being the head as Christ is the head?

Eph 5:23-24

For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

A woman can submit to a nonbeliever, even if he behaves selfishly and cruelly to her, but she needs to have her relationship to Jesus very strong in order to have the grace to do it. She therefore submits to her husband based not on his behavior or his faith, but as an act of faith in Jesus Christ.

But if we are talking about the man truly being the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, doesn't this mean the man really has to know Jesus? Otherwise, aren't we turning the Word of God in to just empty words?

Let me put it this way: What if the Christian wife chooses to not submit in any form or fashion to her husband? Is her salvation called in to question? I don't think so. It's not: Faith + submission to the husband = salvation

But we know that God loves us and has a plan for our marriage that is perfect and beautiful. In the light of the agape love of Christ, how does marriage look and feel? This highest is the true Will of God. The highest plan of God for our marriages is not, "How does the wife do what the husband wants when he's being selfish, and she's struggling with her own selfish feelings."

How can both the husband and the wife be of the same will? Answer: They both have taken the Will of God as their will. How can that be possible? They both know God and walk with him daily. I don't see this really being possible without both walking in it. This is the meaning of the highest possible form of Christian marriage. And if we are talking about the case of only one of them believing, then we are talking about a special case where God gives the grace to the believing spouse to do what is right and pleasing to Him.

 

[hazeleyes80]

In looking at submission and marriage, it seems clear to me that scripturally women are called to submit to the leadership and direction of their husbands. Given the number of scriptures that spell this out so simply in black and white, I find it difficult to see that the scriptures could mean anything other that what they actually say. Although this area of submission can affect more personal issues (and, yes, be a bit scary), I see submitting to a husband as similar to submitting to any other authority. Trusting that a husband is called and anointed to direct the home is no different than trusting that a pastor or elder is called and anointed to direct a church (or a scout master to direct a troop, or a teacher to direct the Bible study etc.). None will be perfect, but each person is called to do a particular job and will be enabled by God to do so.

www.themarriagebed.com

I still don't see how the husband always deciding/getting his way jives with "submit to each other" or to "love does not seek its own." If a Christian marriage is truly the egalitarian parenting relationship you've described, then I will never get married. As a woman, I pride myself on being able to make tough, logical decisions. Taking away my decision-making/leadership power is like taking away my identity. At this point, I am sooooo happy that I feel no pressing need to get married. I refuse to do so if it means living in the perpetual state of childhood that you've described.

To those of you who don't see how it's a parent/child relationship, consider this: Egalitarian parenting involves the parents taking the child's wishes and opinions into consideration but making the final decision as to what happens (regardless of whether or not the child knows more about the particular topic than the parents). From what most of you on this site have described, a Christian marriage involves the husband taking the wife's wishes and opinions into consideration and then making the final decision (regardless of the fact that his wife might be a lot more knowledgable in the particular area than him).

 

[hazeleyes80]

A woman can submit to a nonbeliever, even if he behaves selfishly and cruelly to her, but she needs to have her relationship to Jesus very strong in order to have the grace to do it. She therefore submits to her husband based not on his behavior or his faith, but as an act of faith in Jesus Christ.

But if we are talking about the man truly being the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, doesn't this mean the man really has to know Jesus? Otherwise, aren't we turning the Word of God in to just empty words?

Let me put it this way: What if the Christian wife chooses to not submit in any form or fashion to her husband? Is her salvation called in to question? I don't think so. It's not: Faith + submission to the husband = salvation

But we know that God loves us and has a plan for our marriage that is perfect and beautiful. In the light of the agape love of Christ, how does marriage look and feel? This highest is the true Will of God. The highest plan of God for our marriages is not, "How does the wife do what the husband wants when he's being selfish, and she's struggling with her own selfish feelings."

How can both the husband and the wife be of the same will? Answer: They both have taken the Will of God as their will. How can that be possible? They both know God and walk with him daily. I don't see this really being possible without both walking in it. This is the meaning of the highest possible form of Christian marriage. And if we are talking about the case of only one of them believing, then we are talking about a special case where God gives the grace to the believing spouse to do what is right and pleasing to Him.

To be honest, the only marriages that I have seen that involve two happy spouses are the ones where they're equal partners. In all other senarios I've seen (ex. husband with ultimate power or wife with ultimate power), one spouse always feels stepped on. If they don't admit it outright, then their passive agression screams it. Like I said in my most recent post: I am sooooo happy that I feel no pressing need to marry. I don't understand how married Christian women can put up with never having any power.

 

[alaskamolly]

I don't understand how married Christian women can put up with never having any power.

I would say that's because you don't understand what true power is.

Would you say that Jesus, when on earth, had no power? He was in total submission to His Father (read the book of John, if you have any doubts about the depth of His submission--whew!), yet weilded amazing power.

There is a great power in being covered, one that cannot be explained because it is understood as it is experienced, not read about in a textbook manual.


Blessings to you,
Molly

 

[whatseekye]

To be honest, the only marriages that I have seen that involve two happy spouses are the ones where they're equal partners. In all other senarios I've seen (ex. husband with ultimate power or wife with ultimate power), one spouse always feels stepped on. If they don't admit it outright, then their passive agression screams it. Like I said in my most recent post: I am sooooo happy that I feel no pressing need to marry. I don't understand how married Christian women can put up with never having any power.

I fully intend to take some later (or perhaps tomorrow) to try to respond to your thoughts here because I think you raise some really good points. First of all, I want to say that I share your feelings of misgiving, and I think there is a reason for it. First of all, there is a tendency in these discussions to make gender roles in marriage out to be something so huge, so burdensome, and so important...and it's not only personally dishonest, it's also potentially misleading. I believe it's personally dishonest because there is a tendency in me (and I'm sure others too) to make it seem like I've got it "all together" in my marriage, and I'm *really* living a righteous marital life that pleases the Lord. (I'm sure you can guess the truth here....the truth being, everyone has troubles in their marriage and finds plenty to repent of, or plenty that they should repent of.) Secondly, when we make this seem like such a HUGE thing, we make it seem like a salvation issue. Let me tell you right now, you could get married and decide you want to be completely self ruled, and that in and of itself would have no bearing on whether God loves you and whether you are going to heaven. Your salvation depends on one person alone, and we all know who He is. Also, it makes it seem like your value as a woman depends on your performance being sufficiently "submissive' (whatever that means), which it doesn't. Also, it makes it seem like you, being born a woman, were automatically relegated a step below all men, and I mean, all men...the lazy men, the boring men, the men without a sense of humor, the men without any wit or wisdom in the least, the men who kick their shorts off in the morning and leave them where they fall, and the men who....

I'm getting carried away now. hehe. Well, maybe I can tell you something more later on the topic. Because I really do think you have right to question and will come to a deeper understanding through it.

 

[mghalpern]

I fully intend to take some later (or perhaps tomorrow) to try to respond to your thoughts here because I think you raise some really good points. First of all, I want to say that I share your feelings of misgiving, and I think there is a reason for it. First of all, there is a tendency in these discussions to make gender roles in marriage out to be something so huge, so burdensome, and so important...and it's not only personally dishonest, it's also potentially misleading. I believe it's personally dishonest because there is a tendency in me (and I'm sure others too) to make it seem like I've got it "all together" in my marriage, and I'm *really* living a righteous marital life that pleases the Lord. (I'm sure you can guess the truth here....the truth being, everyone has troubles in their marriage and finds plenty to repent of, or plenty that they should repent of.) Secondly, when we make this seem like such a HUGE thing, we make it seem like a salvation issue. Let me tell you right now, you could get married and decide you want to be completely self ruled, and that in and of itself would have no bearing on whether God loves you and whether you are going to heaven. Your salvation depends on one person alone, and we all know who He is. Also, it makes it seem like your value as a woman depends on your performance being sufficiently "submissive' (whatever that means), which it doesn't. Also, it makes it seem like you, being born a woman, were automatically relegated a step below all men, and I mean, all men...the lazy men, the boring men, the men without a sense of humor, the men without any wit or wisdom in the least, the men who kick their shorts off in the morning and leave them where they fall, and the men who....

I'm getting carried away now. hehe. Well, maybe I can tell you something more later on the topic. Because I really do think you have right to question and will come to a deeper understanding through it.

whatseekye... That's all pretty interesting. Now since this IS a Christian forum I would like you to please provide some biblical support for your arguments for or against something, so that we have a reference point, or so we can have a better sense of "where you are coming from." There are people on these forums who don't think that what they believe needs to be supported by scripture (whether or not it is a direct biblical quote, or a "spirit of the text" perspective). I look forward to your next response on this issue...Thank you...Michael

 

[hazeleyes80]

I would say that's because you don't understand what true power is.

Would you say that Jesus, when on earth, had no power? He was in total submission to His Father (read the book of John, if you have any doubts about the depth of His submission--whew!), yet weilded amazing power.

There is a great power in being covered, one that cannot be explained because it is understood as it is experienced, not read about in a textbook manual.


Blessings to you,
Molly

I meant decision-making power. Sorry, I should have specified.

 

[hazeleyes80]

I fully intend to take some later (or perhaps tomorrow) to try to respond to your thoughts here because I think you raise some really good points. First of all, I want to say that I share your feelings of misgiving, and I think there is a reason for it. First of all, there is a tendency in these discussions to make gender roles in marriage out to be something so huge, so burdensome, and so important...and it's not only personally dishonest, it's also potentially misleading. I believe it's personally dishonest because there is a tendency in me (and I'm sure others too) to make it seem like I've got it "all together" in my marriage, and I'm *really* living a righteous marital life that pleases the Lord. (I'm sure you can guess the truth here....the truth being, everyone has troubles in their marriage and finds plenty to repent of, or plenty that they should repent of.) Secondly, when we make this seem like such a HUGE thing, we make it seem like a salvation issue. Let me tell you right now, you could get married and decide you want to be completely self ruled, and that in and of itself would have no bearing on whether God loves you and whether you are going to heaven. Your salvation depends on one person alone, and we all know who He is. Also, it makes it seem like your value as a woman depends on your performance being sufficiently "submissive' (whatever that means), which it doesn't. Also, it makes it seem like you, being born a woman, were automatically relegated a step below all men, and I mean, all men...the lazy men, the boring men, the men without a sense of humor, the men without any wit or wisdom in the least, the men who kick their shorts off in the morning and leave them where they fall, and the men who....

I'm getting carried away now. hehe. Well, maybe I can tell you something more later on the topic. Because I really do think you have right to question and will come to a deeper understanding through it.

Thank you for your response. I have prayed about this issue many times. I have asked Jesus to help me to feel about this topic the way He wants me to feel. So far, I've only been pointed to the scriptures I've mentioned (submitting to each other and love not wanting its own) and wondering why those passages are not given equal weight to "wives be submissive to your husbands." To be honest though, I don't look to how submissive I would be to a husband to find my self-worth (actually, I get my self-worth/self-esteem from making intelligent, logical decisions). My big issues are: 1) the fact that wifely submission only doesn't seem to jive with other passages if you give them the same weight as the "wives submit to your husbands" passage; and 2) the fact that some people's interpretation of scripture relegates women to a second childhood (please see my post on the similarity of Christian marriages to egalitarian parenting). Hypothetically (extremely hypothetically), if I ever did get married, the only way I would want my husband to make the final decision on a matter in which he had very little knowldege/expertise and I had a lot of expertise is if I was angry at him and wanted to see him fall flat on his face. I know that vindictiveness like that would have to be a sin. I don't need a Bible quote to tell me that.

In addition to mutual submission being in the Bible ("submit to each other..."), it also makes logical sense. For instance: A couple's child has autism. The wife is a special education teacher. The husband is a contractor and is in denial about the child's disability and wants him/her in no special classes. Who should really decide whether or not the kid should be in special education, the special ed. teacher wife or the contractor-in-denial husband? Same couple...They are building a new house and live in an earthquake-prone area. The wife wants a house on the beach. The husband knows better than to do that because of his contracting decision. Who should make the final decision as to where the house is built? The answer to both senarios are very clear to me.

Mutual submission ---> better decision being made ---> neither person feels stepped on.

 

[InTheFlame]

Mmmm... interesting CGS. To my mind love involves respect for a person and appreciation of their knowledge and skills. So if two people love each other, they'll recognise when the other is more knowledgable or skilled in a particular area, and that will weight their discussion. Eg. I know more about cooking than my husband. He defers to my opinion on how difficult/expensive/time-consuming it would be to cater for a specific thing.. like a picnic. He knows more than me about running a business - so if we were in business together, his opinions would be given more weight than mine. Hmmm what was my point... that's right... 'making the final decision' and 'giving the man's opinion greater weight' aren't equal actions.

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

ITF,

You just said what I'm trying to say with my posting in here - didn't mean to get everyone so inflamed about it - sorry bout that!

Yeah - basically what she said ^

Same thing with what I was saying about the fridge - B ended up deferring to me on it, cos he knew I knew more about the cleaning aspect of it, whereas computer stuff I'm more inclined to defer to him about it (so long as the financial aspect is reasonable) cos I know he knows more on what is good/bad about particular products.

If there was blatant ignorance of me on his part in an area that I knew HEAPS more about than him (ie healthcare, in my case) then I wouldn't be feeling much love from him - and I think sometimes that commandment is a lot tougher than the submit one!

Sasch

 

[Svt4Him]

So my children want McDonalds. I mutually submit to them, and we eat Mickey D's every night.

So wife is a doctor. They come across a dying person, and the husband, a welder says to jump-start him with the battery cables, but the wife says no. Therefore the husband should submit. Sure, but that is a different level of authority. Dying person wants to come live in my house. My wife says yes, I say no. Do I mutually submit? And it amazes me how all the clear verses about this issue are ignored because of one verse, and that one verse when it's only applied in one area.

 

[shania]

Yup, that's right SVET4HIM.

Now I'm surprised there aren't more Christians who think all men should have blue collar jobs and own farms since in the creation story men were supposed to sweat and work hard in the fields.....But that would be focusing on a few lines in the bible and missing the point.

But everyone picks and choses what scripture they want to focus on and we often read it using 20th/21st century eyeglasses. In this day and age this particular verse about submission is focused on and we can see why it's a really sensitive issue for some people due the women's rights movement and how men's power has been abused in the past.

Most of us continue on to read about husbands being as Christ was for the church but think the main thing he did was die for us and make our decisions for us so that we would be right with God.

But according to what we read in the bible, did Jesus do this? He was not concerned with worldy things but with matters relating to our salvation and God.

The way I see it is if Jesus was asked "Lord, I need to buy goats and cattle and am not sure if I should buy more goats or cattle what do you think?" Do you believe that Christ would give him an answer to his question or give an answer like one we find in the parables and focus the man back onto things relating to the kingdom of God?

If anything, I think Jesus would end up letting the other person decide those kinds of things because they wouldn't even be important to him in the first place because they are worldly and focus on the work of God. "Let the dead bury the dead."

Jesus did many things to bring women up...like allowing women to sit at his feet to listen to his teachings and be disciples like the men. Wow, what a radical statement he was making!

He even talked to the Samaritan woman at the well. Wow! That was very radical because at the time woman could only speak to their husbands in public.

Even more so, when Jesus rose from the dead he appeared to woman. Again, what a HUGE statement! A woman's testimony wasn't legitimate at the time but he was saying allow the women to speak and testify. They are worthy of giving testomonies.

So man has been head of the woman even up until today. This is not only biblical but very true in our society for Christians and non-Christians. Men rule in many areas, and this happens even in marriages.

Due to our sinful natures from Adam and Eve, some men will overextend their headship into all areas and wish to make all the decisions in the family. Some men will do this out of love. Other men sometimes do it out of love but not always. Some men will pretty much always do it for selfish reasons, which is not biblical at all. And some women will submit because they have been taught it is biblically correct to do so by the church.

I believe if a woman marries someone who believes he is to make all of the decisions for the family this is her choice. But some husbands chose a different marriage model to follow because Jesus did not make our decisios, but was a teacher, disciple, servant, and follower of God.

Personally I believe that couples should submit to one another when making material and worldly decisions, but if others prefer the traditional model then so be it.

What I don't agree with is when people tell others how their relationships should be as a couple because every relationship is different.

 

[Svt4Him]

What I don't agree with is when people tell others how their relationships should be as a couple because every relationship is different and what works for you might not work for someone else

As long as they don't violate the Scriptures. And because some men abuse authority, or a lot have heard about how men abuse their authority, we don't throw out the kingdom principle with everything else. Grace can be misused in the same way, but I don't hear people say grace is bad.

But again from http://www.themarriagebed.com/submission.shtml

What submission is not ...

• mindless obedience
  I think this is covered by understanding Godly disobedience. If someone, anyone, asks you to do wrong, respectfully and graciously say, "No." You are accountable before God for what you say and do.
• chunking your intellect and individuality in the waste basket
  Submitting to a husband isn't about giving up your individuality, your personal tastes or your dreams. It's not about following your husband around drooling "yes man" phrases.

God created husbands and wives to be a team. Husbands are the leader, but their input alone is not enough (see Headship). The team needs your intelligence, your experience and your perspective also.
Submission is choosing to step into agreement with God's structure of order and trusting Him to work it for everyone's good.

 

[hazeleyes80]

edited

 

[hazeleyes80]

So my children want McDonalds. I mutually submit to them, and we eat Mickey D's every night.

So wife is a doctor. They come across a dying person, and the husband, a welder says to jump-start him with the battery cables, but the wife says no. Therefore the husband should submit. Sure, but that is a different level of authority. Dying person wants to come live in my house. My wife says yes, I say no. Do I mutually submit? And it amazes me how all the clear verses about this issue are ignored because of one verse, and that one verse when it's only applied in one area.

One person cannot "mutually" submit. It takes 2. Love not seeking its own goes both ways. That means compromise. For instance, in the case of the dying man that wants to live with you, your wife insisting that he live there would be her seeking her own, and you insisting that nothing is done would be you seeking your own. Rather than argue over whether or not he can live there, the logical thing to do would be to compromise. Maybe he wouldn't be allowed to move in, but you would assist your wife in finding a good Christian hospice that would see to his needs (and maybe even allow him to stay free if he couldn't pay for it), find or help him to reconcile with next of kin, etc. That way you're helping the man (what your wife wants), but he's not living with you (what you want). Isn't that so much better than one person asserting dominance (i.e. putting their foot down) and making the other feel like they don't matter?

The situation with the kids shouldn't even be compared to the situation with the wife. Would it be nice for you to take your kids' desire to eat at McDonalds into consideration? Yes. However, in the case of the kids, you don't technically have to. Mutual submission is only mentioned in the context of the husband/wife relationship. In 1 Corinthians 13, it seems clear to me that the "love" being talked about is that of a husband and wife (does not envy, etc.). I actually find the fact that you would compare a husband/wife relationship to a parent/child relationship like that to be scary (though it proves the point I made in one of my earlier posts).

 

[Svt4Him]

Just so I understand what you are afraid of, mutual submission is only applicable in a husband wife relationship. Well, I guess we'll throw out:

... and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. Eph. 5:21
clothe yourself with humility toward one another 1 Pet. 5:5
be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor; Rom. 12:10

Ya, I could see how that would be scary. And again, since submission only happens when there is disagreement, a wife submits to the husbands will, a husband submits to the wife's will (in order for there to be mutual, or does mutual mean a trade off? This time it's yours, next time mine?) so neither gets done? Scary indeed.

Now to address the words you added. For some reason whenever submission comes up, it's always the man who is a tyrant, never listens, and abuses his power. I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but this is not the case.

How God calls me to lead: It's not about doing it my way, and it's not about doing it her way. Try thinking of it as being the head of the marriage; the goal is not to rule her, but to guide and direct "us" as a couple. Sometimes what's best for the marriage happens to be what I'd like; sometimes it happens to be what she'd like; sometimes it's something that neither of us really want to do. In short, it's not what either of us wants, it's about what God wants.

Why I'm a fool if I ignore my wife's input: Okay, fool is a strong word, but what else would you call someone who makes decisions without getting all the information? My wife has a different perspective than I do, and that perspective can be extremely valuable. I should not only listen to my wife, I should seek her thoughts and feelings before I make decisions. Peter suggests that men who don't pay attention to their wives are crippling themselves in more ways than one:

Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with
understanding, giving honor to the wife,
... that your prayers may not be hindered. 1 Pet. 3:7

Why being the head doesn't entitle me to demand anything: Free will is real big with God; He even gave us the free will to reject Him and His love. If God gave us that kind of free will with Him, how could He expect anything less in our relationships with other humans? It's one thing to tell my wife what I think should be done, but I see no scriptural support for demanding or forcing her to comply. Jesus never treated people that way, so how can I treat my wife that way?

I'm responsible to lead; I'm not responsible for her following. When the Church fails to follow the Lord, does that mean Jesus has failed? NO!! Similarly, I'm not a failure if my wife chooses not to follow what I say. That's between her and God; it's not my place to make her comply, and it's not my place to take punitive measures.

Being the head is not the cushy perk -illed job some men and women think it is, at least not if we do it God's way. I understand the men who abdicate their duty as head; headship is just plain hard! Still, we're called to do it, and we'll be judged for our obedience or lack of obedience. Failing to be the head God called us to be brings a curse on us and our entire family, but obedience brings blessings to all. As I walk in it, He is with me, guiding me. When I'm not sure how I should proceed, I always think about what Jesus would do with the Church; He is my example and guide.

http://www.themarriagebed.com/headship.shtml

As for 1 Cor. 13 and love being b/t a husband and wife, I think that's adding something that isn't there. Love does not envy. Where there's envy, love is lacking, whether it's between a husband/wife or two friends. That is love, and nowhere is it limited to love in a marriage. But that just confirms what I wrote before. ( )

And compromise is not submission.

 

[alaskamolly]

I meant decision-making power. Sorry, I should have specified.

Well, that's actually what I was referring to, too.

I actually find the fact that you would compare a husband/wife relationship to a parent/child relationship like that to be scary (though it proves the point I made in one of my earlier posts).

Why? God uses many different analogies to describe His relationship with us--parent/child, master/slave, husband/wife, sheperd/sheep, head/body, vine/branch--all of them having a degree of mutual submission involved, BUT all of them also having a strong degree of AUTHORITY relationship as well.

It's sad how many of you seem to be thinking that only one aspect can be true at a time: for you, it's either mutual submission or it's authority roles, and "ne'er the twain shall meet." Well...not so in God's World (and not so in my marraige, either--heehee!)...

But back to your issue of "scary..."

What's scary about using an analogy? Nobody suggests it conforms completely to the subject, but there are related similarities, and that's all the analogy is trying to bring out.

I would say that you find it scary because you have a false definition of authority and submission, and possibly also because there is rebellion in your own heart that you have yet to deal with. I know that's a very bold thing to say, but please don't think I say it with evil intent--and I do admit that it's only a possibility (because how can I know your heart?! ).

I just know that for me, marital authority issues in Scripture had a very distasteful feel, almost made me sick to my stomach, actually, but all that was resolved when I finally had my eyes opened (by God, of course!) to what God's definition of all of it meant, to what God's definition of authority meant, of it's purpose and design...and opened to the rebellion nurtured in my own heart towards my Yahweh... Your comments on this thread are almost identical to my former thoughts...I just always find that interesting.

But anyways...
(And this is a question not just for ChristianGradStudent but for all egalitarians):


God Himself likens the marraige relationship to a shepherd (the husband) and a sheep/lamb (the wife).

[See Nathan's "analogy" to David, regarding the sin of Uriah and Bathsheba]. Just out of curiousity, if how do you deal with that? If husbands and wives operate in mutual submission ONLY, then how do you deal with God's choice of analogy in 2 Samuel?


Warm Regards,
Molly