Instantaneous Conversion by Faith Alone

[FieryMethodist]

I was challenged by John Wesley's and Methodist view of evangelical instantaneous conversions.

I found out, conversion is not a long process of: water baptism in Jesus' name, Holy Spirit while waiting for evidence of speaking in tongues, standards of holiness, legalism, rituals, etc. etc.

I found out after looking at numerous conversion examples when people received assurance, forgiveness, was at the moment of belief and oral confession of faith. At one point is someone justified? At one point does someone receive the assurance, "Shall Be Saved?" At one point does one access grace? Receive the peace of God? Here is some additional Scriptures and points:

Romans 3:28 (NIV) - For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

-some refer to "works of the law" here as just Judaic legalism, but "works of the law" in the context of this verse is any legalism [standards].

Romans 5:1 (NIV) - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:2 (NIV) - through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

1. Faith alone justifies a man
2. we have peace with God because of the justification
3. we access grace by faith only

Romans Chs. 1-6 dealt with justification by faith only Romans 10 dealt with the practical and pastoral aspect of justification. The how someone is justified?

I used to be KJV only, but the NIV made it clear to me:

That if you confess with you mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with the heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Belief in heart = justification
confess with mouth = saved
justification and saved are symotaneous, and the belief and confessioni are instantaneous presents in the Greek New Testament.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord - Romans 10:13 is also instantaneous. Therefore, conversion is not a process of (water baptism, ritual, more ritual, speaking in tongues, standards, or legalism).

That is why I believe that conversion occurs at the moment of faith and belief when we, call upon the name of the Lord. That is the reason we call upon the name of the Lord for conversion without the requirement of water baptism, speaking in tongues, standards, and legalism. We are saved by grace through faith [only] without legalism. To God be the Glory!

What do you have to say about all this?
God Bless,

PS: I was UPCI, and now I am United Methodist. I inquired about instantaneous conversion and got it

 

[Gods4Life4Ever]

I believe you got it right, finally.

Be blessed in all that you do.

 

[food4thought]

Sounds to me like you are right on. Wesley would say that we are touched by grace even before we are saved (called prevenient grace), and that our justification is only the starting point of our sanctification, which is also a part of our overall salvation process... I think the whole thing can get lost in semantics, honestly. We are justified by grace through faith, we are sanctified by grace through faith... the only question would be can a person lose salvation once they have been justified?

The technical answer for that would be: "uhh... Idunno"

 

[Gods4Life4Ever]

"lose" NO

Give up salvation YES, though I believe that to be a very foolish endeavor.

 

[Steve.Page]

I was challenged by John Wesley's and Methodist view of evangelical instantaneous conversions.

I found out, conversion is not a long process of: water baptism in Jesus' name, Holy Spirit while waiting for evidence of speaking in tongues, standards of holiness, legalism, rituals, etc. etc.

I found out after looking at numerous conversion examples when people received assurance, forgiveness, was at the moment of belief and oral confession of faith. At one point is someone justified? At one point does someone receive the assurance, "Shall Be Saved?" At one point does one access grace? Receive the peace of God? Here is some additional Scriptures and points:

Romans 3:28 (NIV) - For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

-some refer to "works of the law" here as just Judaic legalism, but "works of the law" in the context of this verse is any legalism [standards].

Romans 5:1 (NIV) - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:2 (NIV) - through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

1. Faith alone justifies a man
2. we have peace with God because of the justification
3. we access grace by faith only

Romans Chs. 1-6 dealt with justification by faith only Romans 10 dealt with the practical and pastoral aspect of justification. The how someone is justified?

I used to be KJV only, but the NIV made it clear to me:

That if you confess with you mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with the heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Belief in heart = justification
confess with mouth = saved
justification and saved are symotaneous, and the belief and confessioni are instantaneous presents in the Greek New Testament.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord - Romans 10:13 is also instantaneous. Therefore, conversion is not a process of (water baptism, ritual, more ritual, speaking in tongues, standards, or legalism).

That is why I believe that conversion occurs at the moment of faith and belief when we, call upon the name of the Lord. That is the reason we call upon the name of the Lord for conversion without the requirement of water baptism, speaking in tongues, standards, and legalism. We are saved by grace through faith [only] without legalism. To God be the Glory!

What do you have to say about all this?
God Bless,

PS: I was UPCI, and now I am United Methodist. I inquired about instantaneous conversion and got it

I was in a non-denominational church and then attended a Wesleyan Church and went through much of their ordination education. I think Wesley got more things right than he got wrong. But, I think he suffered from some of the same problems that much of the church does, that is he viewed scripture from the perspective of the Reformers.

Let's try to look at conversion from the perspective of all the covenants in scripture between the Lord and men instead. We can enter into covenant through faith, but then we must choose to be faithful to that covenant by our free will. Look at it this way. You can instantly sign the contract to buy a car, but then you are obligated to make the payments.The payments are a condition of the contract.

This is not a perfect example because we can't buy our salvation. We go to a dealership with money and good credit to buy a car, but forgiveness of sin is not like that because we don't have what's needed to pay that debt. Jesus comes to us having already paid the debt for our sin, and He offers to pay our debt if we'll trust him and be obedient to him. (I believe that this is part of what Jesus was explaining in John 14:15 - 15:17.)

So we enter the covenant or sign the contract "at the moment of faith" but we still must meet the conditions of the covenant. When we bought the car we had faith they'd give us the car and they had faith we'd make the payment. (I only mention that to point out that faith is present in every covenant and contract.)

Praise God that in His love and grace he offered this covenant to us. We can choose to enter the covenant with Christ and we can choose to break that covenant. If we break the covenant or parts of the covenant we can be forgiven if we repent. If we break covenant and do not repent…….

Wesley understood the need for holiness and what it gains a Christian better than any of his contemporaries. I do think, however, that he never made the connection that holiness is a New Covenant condition, just as repentance and baptism are. (Or at least I've never seen any writings of Wesley's that referred to covenants, so I could be wrong.) Wesley realized that salvation is not unconditional and he was right, what I'm saying is that the New Covenant (New Testament) is not unconditional. We must meet our obligations. Notice the conditional nature of what Jesus said.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 15:9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.

Matthew 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

 

[Gods4Life4Ever]

Excellent post Steve!

Some additional thoughts on your car purchase example:

Jesus paid for the car with the understanding that the car is free to anyone, however, maintenance is on the person who takes possession of the car. There is no cost to the maintenance, it is a matter of physically bringing the car to the dealership on a regular basis for tuneups and oil changes. These are not mandatory, but they will help the car to continue in tip-top shape throughout its lifetime of faithful service. If the user of the car does not submit it for the routine maintenance on schedule, some things in the vehicle will be in jeopardy of continued tip-top performance. At some point in time, due to neglect of maintenance, the car may finally be in such a state of disrepair that the user abandons it along the road............

 

[BryanW92]

What do you have to say about all this?

My conversion experience was sudden, like a bolt from the blue. It was a little more than Wesley's "Strangely warmed" experience, but far from Paul's Damascus Road experience. My whole world changed in an instant and I wasn't asking for anything.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Steve, one of the most famous of all of Wesley's structured services is his Covenant Service. If Wesley did not understand holiness to be part of the New Covenant, then I don't know where he saw it stemming from. It is clearly all over in his writings a continuation of the process of salvation that is secured for us by the work of Christ. We are may be instanteously justified and made right with God, but there is still a need to work out our salvation and to grow in righteousness. This is a process known as sanctification, and the theme which made Wesleyan teaching unique And while we are involved in the process of growing in holiness, this too is not of our own efforts, but a work of God in us according to his Spirit -- that gift which we receive in our lives as partakers of the New Covenant.

 

[Holyroller125]

Hey; on February 17, Sunday, one of the scriptures recommended to preach is: Romans 10:8b-13

Some that I would like to prreach, and some of my district superintendents and lay ministers in my church are giving me the go and encouraging me.

1. Wesley mentioned a Methodist essential. Notice, he said "essential" and not "distinction." An essential is different than a distinction in that distinctions is ONLY your group while essentials are universal CHRISTIAN truths. An essential is what everyone should believe. The essentials is what you should believe and preach in order to be a Methodist preacher and elder. The essential that I am talking about is: #2. Salvation by faith only #1 is original sin, #3 is holiness of heart and life
2. We are absolutely convinced that we are saved by grace through faith without legalism.
3. We are saved by faith from start to finish.
4. One must experience the new birth: Romans 10:9-10, 13 - That if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with the heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. And, at the moment you call upon the name of the Lord, you are saved, the conversion occurs. The moment you beilevest in your heart and confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and make the faith statement, calling on the name of the Lord, the conversion occurs. By faith only witout tongues, without legalism, without rules, without the ritual. Just the faith statement.

How about this,
To God Be the Glory,
Holyroller125

 

[GraceSeeker]

Interesting that you chose to count 2, 1, 3. Would be curious why?

Also the emphasis on faith is good, but what is faith? Is it not trusting? What does trust look like? Is it not risking to do something? We must avoid in saying that we are saved by faith alone to have people conclude that such faith is without any action on our part. James tells us that faith without works is dead. More importantly, Jesus tells us that we are known by our fruit.

Part of the passage indicates that we are not just believing, but we are also confessing that "Jesus is Lord." That is we are saying that Jesus is our master, he is in charge. Do we suppose that our master looks at all of his followers and says, "OK, now all I want you to do is believe and sit there." "Believe, but don't do anything to act out your faith." Does that sound like the Jesus we read about in the scriptures?

So, yes, believe. And in believing, show you have faith in the one you confess as your Lord. And follow him. Get off your butts, and follow him into service in his kingdom, for Jesus came not to be served but to serve and to give his life for others. He calls those of us who are known by his name to nothing less than the same.

 

[Holyroller125]

Interesting that you chose to count 2, 1, 3. Would be curious why?

Also the emphasis on faith is good, but what is faith? Is it not trusting? What does trust look like? Is it not risking to do something? We must avoid in saying that we are saved by faith alone to have people conclude that such faith is without any action on our part. James tells us that faith without works is dead. More importantly, Jesus tells us that we are known by our fruit.

Part of the passage indicates that we are not just believing, but we are also confessing that "Jesus is Lord." That is we are saying that Jesus is our master, he is in charge. Do we suppose that our master looks at all of his followers and says, "OK, now all I want you to do is believe and sit there." "Believe, but don't do anything to act out your faith." Does that sound like the Jesus we read about in the scriptures?

So, yes, believe. And in believing, show you have faith in the one you confess as your Lord. And follow him. Get off your butts, and follow him into service in his kingdom, for Jesus came not to be served but to serve and to give his life for others. He calls those of us who are known by his name to nothing less than the same.

I do not think you interpreted correctly what I was getting at:

In the context of the new birth = becoming a new person, absolutely yes. That is the sanctifying grace peace. My discussion is about justification by faith. The works that James talks about is a result of our faith. Works do not produce faith. Faith produces fruitful works. I had it the other way around when back in the rigid Apostolic Pentecostal group. Believe is a trust in the finished work of and authority of Christ alone for our salvation.

Now, for the order 2, 1, 3. #2 was John Wesley's immediate essential for the discussion. I mentioned the other two for reference. That was John Wesley's two other essentials. Conversion is based on #2 (the first one I mentioned). The works that you are talking about is under #3: Holiness of Heart and Life. This is a result of the new birth. The holiness, our holiness, our life, does not produce justification. Justification is God's/Christ's unmerited acceptance, forgiveness to a lost sinner. Then, because of that, we are to convey the character of Christ to lost and lonely people in need, provide their needs, etc. etc.

 

[GraceSeeker]

The works that James talks about is a result of our faith. Works do not produce faith. Faith produces fruitful works. I had it the other way around when back in the rigid Apostolic Pentecostal group.

I remember. Just be aware that you're on a pendelum swing right now. Many people have the opposite problem. They fully trust in Christ for their salvation, but fail to give any evidence in their life because to their way of thinking they are saved and works mean nothing for salvation -- which is all that they care about.

 

[Holyroller125]

Many people have the opposite problem. They fully trust in Christ for their salvation, but fail to give any evidence in their life because to their way of thinking they are saved and works mean nothing for salvation -- which is all that they care about.

Exactly why I came to the Methodist Church instead of going back to the Baptist church. Too many pastors in that group have the attitude and way of thinking that you are talking about. I was challenged to become a better disciple of Jesus Christ by coming into the United Methodist Church, became more rounded, more fruitful, producing the fruitfulness = the real evidence of the new birth. Not speaking in tongues, not tooting my horn about the rules I keep, not tooting my horn. Fruit is real hard to fake

Been growing in leeps and bounds ever since. My family and immediate family, sister, has recognized just how healthier I got spiritually, emotionally, relationally. The benefits are limitless and always getting better. All because it is good to plant youreelf in healthy soil (Matthew 5) for producing healthy fruit. Also, I am not as depressed and anxious, was able to gain some weight, and now I look healthy. I believe the healthy fruitful good theology that I am into had a lot to do with that.

I tried to write this to talk about fruit, to uplift, and encourage others.
To God be the Glory!

 

[GraceSeeker]

You know, your own story that you just shared here is pretty compelling. You might use that narrative as illustrative of the larger meta-narrative that you're proclaiming.

 

[Emmy]

Dear FieryMethodist. You are right in all you say, but where does the Love come in? Jesus told us in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: Love our neighbour as we love ourselves."
Then Jesus states this great fact: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Love is very important to our Heavenly Father, God is Love and God wants Loving children/sons and daughters. Yet where and when comes Love into action? Do we just twiddle our thumbs and carry on being selfish and filled with our own importance?
We have to learn to love and care for our brothers and sisters, to show God that we follow His Commandments to Love God and love each other. We have to learn to treat all we know and all we meet as we ourselves want to be loved and accepted, as being made in the image of God. God will see our sincere efforts to " Love and Obey," to show the world that our great weapon is Love: Love to overcome all enmity and wrong behaviour.
We know that Jesus our Saviour will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love, also. But we have to " Ask and we will receive," ( Matthew 7: 7-8) then thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. We have to keep asking God and thanking God and sharing all Love and Joy with our neighbour. This might not come easy to us to start, but God wants it from us, and a Christian`s role is to show the world what God wants from us.
1) To Love God with all our beings, and to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on Loving and caring. God will see our efforts and God will Bless us. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy your sister in Christ.

 

[Holyroller125]

Dear FieryMethodist. You are right in all you say, but where does the Love come in? Jesus told us in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: Love our neighbour as we love ourselves."
Then Jesus states this great fact: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Love is very important to our Heavenly Father, God is Love and God wants Loving children/sons and daughters. Yet where and when comes Love into action? Do we just twiddle our thumbs and carry on being selfish and filled with our own importance?
We have to learn to love and care for our brothers and sisters, to show God that we follow His Commandments to Love God and love each other. We have to learn to treat all we know and all we meet as we ourselves want to be loved and accepted, as being made in the image of God. God will see our sincere efforts to " Love and Obey," to show the world that our great weapon is Love: Love to overcome all enmity and wrong behaviour.
We know that Jesus our Saviour will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love, also. But we have to " Ask and we will receive," ( Matthew 7: 7-8) then thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. We have to keep asking God and thanking God and sharing all Love and Joy with our neighbour. This might not come easy to us to start, but God wants it from us, and a Christian`s role is to show the world what God wants from us.
1) To Love God with all our beings, and to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on Loving and caring. God will see our efforts and God will Bless us. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy your sister in Christ.

One of my favorite scriptures is Matthew 5:43-48: And if you love those who only love you, what good is that, even the pagans do that. And if you respect [salute] only your brethren, what good is that, even the tax collectors do that. But I say unto you, be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly father in heaven is perfect.

Not love you because you look like, think like, act like, believe like me. Love you unconditionally and without reservation. Since coming into my new faith, I love this scripture.

Not be respectful and kind to you because your just like me, agree just like me, or think just like me, or act just like me, or live just like me, we are to respect people unconditionally and without reservation. We are supposed to love people without: checking the brain at the door mentality, feed them, cloth them, give them whatever they need without reservation, and without favoritism.

And, let me tell you something in love. Please be careful about not assuming before really getting to know the person. YOu came across like I was ignorant, and yet, the scripture above is my motivater in how I relate with people. Generally, it was a good motivator. However, I have learned not to assume too much. When I assume too much, I am not really listening, being attentive, or really showing I love and care for the person. Just wanted to also tell you something in love.

God Bless

 

[Holyroller125]

I took one of these online quizzes: What denomination are you?

The result was: I came out Methodist.

A question on salvation had 3 choices:
A. Faith [only]
B. Faith and the essentiality of water baptism
C. Faith, water baptism, and good works of piety

I chose: A - Faith [only] - conversion without the essentiality of water baptism

Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward grace that has already been done in you. It is symbolic of what is done. However, water baptism is not the means of someone going from an unbeliever to a Christian.

How about all this? The quiz's question on salvation?

Thank You

 

[food4thought]

I took one of these online quizzes: What denomination are you?

The result was: I came out Methodist.

A question on salvation had 3 choices:
A. Faith [only]
B. Faith and the essentiality of water baptism
C. Faith, water baptism, and good works of piety

I chose: A - Faith [only] - conversion without the essentiality of water baptism

Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward grace that has already been done in you. It is symbolic of what is done. However, water baptism is not the means of someone going from an unbeliever to a Christian.

How about all this? The quiz's question on salvation?

Thank You

This can get really confusing and really divisive, really quickly... really

The problem is what do we mean when we say "saved" and "salvation"? This is why I like Wesley's way of seeing things... he did a good job of making it clear that "salvation" is a process that includes justification (and regeneration), sanctification, and glorification. Yet He was very clear that justification (and regeneration) is by grace through faith; and that sanctification is only the process that follows true faith, and it is accomplished by God's grace as well (water baptism is part of the process of sanctification); and that glorification is the ultimate fulfillment of all that we had faith in God (and His grace) for. In the Bible, if I am not mistaken, all three are referred to as "salvation" or "being saved".

When the vast majority of Christians say "saved", what they really mean is have you been "born again" (IE, justified and regenerated by the indwelling Holy Spirit through faith)... If someone asks you if you are saved, try not to cause unnecessary confusion and just say yes. Unless of course you feel led to indulge in a little theological discussion.

Wow... just read over my post and realized I might need to add a glossary of Christian-eze terms down here lol

 

[FieryMethodist]

This can get really confusing and really divisive, really quickly... really

The problem is what do we mean when we say "saved" and "salvation"? This is why I like Wesley's way of seeing things... he did a good job of making it clear that "salvation" is a process that includes justification (and regeneration), sanctification, and glorification. Yet He was very clear that justification (and regeneration) is by grace through faith; and that sanctification is only the process that follows true faith, and it is accomplished by God's grace as well (water baptism is part of the process of sanctification); and that glorification is the ultimate fulfillment of all that we had faith in God (and His grace) for. In the Bible, if I am not mistaken, all three are referred to as "salvation" or "being saved".

When the vast majority of Christians say "saved", what they really mean is have you been "born again" (IE, justified and regenerated by the indwelling Holy Spirit through faith)... If someone asks you if you are saved, try not to cause unnecessary confusion and just say yes. Unless of course you feel led to indulge in a little theological discussion.

Wow... just read over my post and realized I might need to add a glossary of Christian-eze terms down here lol

The doctrine of salvation by faith alone has always been devisive to people who try to maintain their golden calves. And, people get sanctification confused with conversion. We are justified at conversion with the promise of forgiveness, salvation. When we are justified; we are justified. Then, we go through the process of sanctification/discipleship. A lot of people get sanctification confused with conversion. For the people who have maintained the disciplines all there life, they are liberated knowing God unconditionally accepts, forgives, justifies, and saves them from their sin and from the world.

God Bless

 

[GraceSeeker]

I took one of these online quizzes: What denomination are you?

The result was: I came out Methodist.

A question on salvation had 3 choices:
A. Faith [only]
B. Faith and the essentiality of water baptism
C. Faith, water baptism, and good works of piety

I chose: A - Faith [only] - conversion without the essentiality of water baptism

Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward grace that has already been done in you. It is symbolic of what is done. However, water baptism is not the means of someone going from an unbeliever to a Christian.

How about all this? The quiz's question on salvation?

Thank You

How about it? I think you answered well, and explain your reasons for so answer here very adquately.