Innocence

[GreenMunchkin]

Is innocence an important part of Christianity? Or rather, is innocence an important part of being a Christian?

 

[Hentenza]

Hey GM,

You might want to describe what you mean by innocence. The fact is that most of us old timers are not innocent to much but we try to keep an innocent heart. I struggle with that daily but my faith makes it easier. God loves us, each one of us. He sent his son to die for us because of the love that He has for us. We are his.

 

[Latreia]

Matthew 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.


This speaks to me that we are to be innocent in the way that children are
open and trusting.

We are to be as little children to God, our heavenly Father and to trust in Jesus Christ completely.

I do not take this to mean innocence or lacking understanding of the world of man.

For Christians, there is only one Teacher.

He Who died on the Cross for us.

 

[Tenebrae]

If this is off beam, please tell me.

When we come to faith, into a relationship with God, all the things we have done, get removed as far as the east is from the west. In other words, once we've repented God remembers it no more.


However unfortunately we still have memories of our old lives, and the enemy relishes in sticking the knife in especially when we are down, which often involves dragging up all those things that we have done, and especially the ones we would rather forget.


In Christ, we are a new creation, which IMO means that the old is gone, and been replaced by the new. Alot of the time, I simply stick my hand in my Fathers hand, and tell Him exactly whats going on telling Him, that I'm trusting in Him. if thats innocence then there you go if not, *shrugs*

I think the scriptures Latreia posted are great


Praying for you Sis

 

[Angel4Truth]

Dear sister the only one innocent before the Father is Jesus Christ and its him whose life we exchange ours for - righteousness has nothing to do with us - it has everything to do with Him.

Romans 3:10. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11. there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.
12. They have all gone out of the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one.''
13. "Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit''; "The poison of asps is under their lips'';
14. "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.''
15. "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16. destruction and misery are in their ways;
17. and the way of peace they have not known.''
18. "There is no fear of God before their eyes.''
19. Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22. even the righteousness of God which is through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24. being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

My sister let your joy come from the only one who can give it and thats Him - let Him define you no one else. We all get disapointed sometimes by the examples shown by others - by selfrighteousness - by poor witness but we cannot place our faith in THAT - those people didnt save us nor will they be with us when we stand before God. They will each have to give their own account before Him - Hebrews 4:13. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

And these my sister are for you:

Romans 8: 36. As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.''

Jesus said it would be so.

1st Peter:4:14. If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified.
15. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.
16. Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
17. For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18. Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?''
19. Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

God sees all dear sister - and just because we may not see what is happening in full we can trust that He is in control. ((((((((((((you are loved)))))))))))

 

[Criada]

Is innocence an important part of Christianity? Or rather, is innocence an important part of being a Christian?

It's not important to be innocent in ourselves, naturally ... I wouldn't be here if it were. Nor would any of us.

It's of vital importance to let Him *make* us innocent - to allow Him to take away the things that 'dirty' us. And He does that - every day.
Because He loves us so enormously!
When God looks at us, He sees the righteousness of Jesus.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Is innocence an important part of Christianity? Or rather, is innocence an important part of being a Christian?

Christians need not be innocent in the sense of being naive about the ways of the world. But we are innocent in that whatever we've done wrong, it's forgiven and forgotten ("I will remember your iniquities no more"), washed away by the blood of Christ. Sometimes the hardest thing is to forgive ourselves, but we must... it would be arrogance and folly to hold ourselves to a higher standard than God Himself does!

 

[Latreia]

Christians need not be innocent in the sense of being naive about the ways of the world. But we are innocent in that whatever we've done wrong, it's forgiven and forgotten ("I will remember your iniquities no more"), washed away by the blood of Christ. Sometimes the hardest thing is to forgive ourselves, but we must... it would be arrogance and folly to hold ourselves to a higher standard than God Himself does!

You seem to be strongly advising other Christians how to understand repentance. Are you trying to inform us about what God thinks about sin and repentance?

If you are referring to one's sins as simply having "done wrong" and then all is "forgiven and forgotten" by God, there seems to be something left out of this happy solution.

Sins include real damage to other people.
How can one simply shrug off the effects of one's sins upon others, saying, "All my guilt is vanished, and God does not hold me to the "higher standards" than His Own....assuming that we also have attained complete familiarity with the mind of God.

Regardless of what pain and tragedy sins have inflicted upon others, now we can just happily put our hand in our Heavenly Father's and be favored as good children.

But what about those real persons we have given various amounts of grief and pain?

What of those who, in our sin, listened to us and followed us then? Do we not owe them confessions that what we spoke in sin was vain and false? Moreso, outright admission that those things uttered in our sin we now revoke?

If we now have such favor in God's eyes, are we so covered if we just need to "vent" or to treat others with contempt so long as we hide this behind a cover of humor and fun?



This post is addressed to the post by Izdaari.

It is not in any way meant to demean any CF member.

It is a conservative inquiry into interpretations of scriptures that do not adhere to traditional values.

If Izdaari cares to withdraw her post, as I am asked to do with my reply to hers, I shall immediately.

Green Munchkin posted the Statement of Faith and Guidelines for this forum. I respect that she is not betrayed any who honor that.

 

[Tenebrae]

Christians need not be innocent in the sense of being naive about the ways of the world. But we are innocent in that whatever we've done wrong, it's forgiven and forgotten ("I will remember your iniquities no more"), washed away by the blood of Christ. Sometimes the hardest thing is to forgive ourselves, but we must... it would be arrogance and folly to hold ourselves to a higher standard than God Himself does!

Quoted for truth


Well said

 

[Latreia]

http://foru.ms/t6377207-cc-statement-of-faith-and-guidelines.html

 

[Latreia]

Criada, your pm sounded urgent, but you have not even read my reply. I need your reply, please.

Please do not assume that I know everything you know.

I am Traditional conservative, not a member of clubs or little insider cliques. As such, my own feelings rarely concern others and I continue to be deliberately criticised.

Compassion is not a one-way street that only liberals may walk.

 

[Criada]

Sis - I had no intention of criticising. Am very sorry if that is how it came across - please forgive me.
I was away from the computer - only just got your PM. Sorry.

And your feelings do concern me - I am sorry if I have given the impression that they don't.

 

[Latreia]

You seem to be strongly advising other Christians how to understand repentance. Are you trying to inform us about what God thinks about sin and repentance?

If you are referring to one's sins as simply having "done wrong" and then all is "forgiven and forgotten" by God, there seems to be something left out of this happy solution.

Sins include real damage to other people.
How can one simply shrug off the effects of one's sins upon others, saying, "All my guilt is vanished, and God does not hold me to the "higher standards" than His Own....assuming that we also have attained complete familiarity with the mind of God.

Regardless of what pain and tragedy sins have inflicted upon others, now we can just happily put our hand in our Heavenly Father's and be favored as good children.

But what about those real persons we have given various amounts of grief and pain?

What of those who, in our sin, listened to us and followed us then? Do we not owe them confessions that what we spoke in sin was vain and false? Moreso, outright admission that those things uttered in our sin we now revoke?

If we now have such favor in God's eyes, are we so covered if we just need to "vent" or to treat others with contempt so long as we hide this behind a cover of humor and fun?



This post is addressed to the post by Izdaari.

It is not in any way meant to demean any CF member.

It is a conservative inquiry into interpretations of scriptures that do not adhere to traditional values.

If Izdaari cares to withdraw her post, as I am asked to do with my reply to hers, I shall immediately.

Green Munchkin posted the Statement of Faith and Guidelines for this forum. I respect that she is not betrayed any who honor that.

Edited prior post.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Hey GM,

You might want to describe what you mean by innocence.

Been reading a book called Hardness of the Heart by Andrew Wommack, and he's cited Smith Wigglesworth a lot. Neither of them watch/ed tv, or read newspapers; Andrew Wommack has never sworn or smoked or tasted alcohol. Both live/d purely (innocently?) and both have been used greatly by God and witnessed hundreds of miracles and healings.

I heard a while ago that Satan actually appeared to Smith Wigglesworth once. Smith was asleep and he woke up in the middle of the night and saw Satan standing at the foot of his bed. Apparently he looked at him and went, "Oh, it's you." and went back to sleep. Being that assured of your authority and safety in Christ... can you imagine?

Anyway, both of these men have little to do with the world in terms of acknowledging it - I guess I equate that with innocence. Like how children know nothing of the world. Is that why children are the Lord's beloved? It seems to me that it's exposure to the world that destroys our innocence, and am just wondering whether that innocence is a necessary part of being a Christian.

 

[Latreia]

GM, if I understand about your book, you seem to be asking if one can only be a Christian if innocent of the world of man.

Perhaps it is equating with innocence with purity.

Jesus came to answer that question when He came into this world at a most brutal and uncivilized time. Does that sound like God decided to wait until the world was innocent enough for His Son?

With the full knowledge of the consequences, God sent His Son to us that we may become Christians by turning to Christ for our hope of purity.

The answer is not whether only the innocent can be Christians, but whether God's plans included many more than the pure on earth.

The Bible says Christ is the Savior of the world. Period.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

GM, if I understand about your book, you seem to be asking if one can only be a Christian if innocent of the world of man.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

The Bible is full of miracles and healings. Christians are supposed to have the authority to lay hands on people; to cast out demons... and yet very few Christians in the western world actually experince it. Have personally only witnessed one miracle. So am wondering what it is we're doing wrong, or missing.

Most Christians have the God-given authority, but not the faith, or the "innocence", because Christians are so invested in the world. By being so, hearts are hardened to God.

 

[Latreia]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

The Bible is full of miracles and healings. Christians are supposed to have the authority to lay hands on people; to cast out demons... and yet very few Christians in the western world actually experince it. Have personally only witnessed one miracle. So am wondering what it is we're doing wrong, or missing.

Most Christians have the God-given authority, but not the faith, or the "innocence", because Christians are so invested in the world. By being so, hearts are hardened to God.

It is really tougher, I think, when we start building a case against faith based on failed expectations that we have gathered from the false negativity of the material world.

What you seem to say here is that you cannot see the proof that you need to think that God's will is being done.

But, goodness sakes, the world has always been filled with miracles known only to those whose lives were made radiant by small wonders.

God does not advertise the same ways that men do. Spiritual gifts are seldom purchased and driven down the street for all to see.



"And, therefore, since amongst these philosophers are things uncertain, we must come to the true Prophet.

Him whom God the Father wished to be loved by all, and accordingly He has been pleased wholly to extinguish those opinions which have originated with men,
and in regard to which there is nothing like certainty

- that He the true Prophet might be the more sought after, and that He whom they had obscured should show to men the way of truth.

For on this account also God made the world, and by Him the world is filled; whence also He is everywhere near to them who seek Him, though He be sought in the remotest ends of the earth.

But if any one seek Him not purely, nor holily, nor faithfully, He is indeed within him, because He is everywhere, and is found within the minds of all men;

but, as we have said before,
He is dormant to the unbelieving
and is held to be absent from those by whom His existence is not believed".

Source: Clement of Alexandria

 

[rmw8855]

I think the real difference with men like Smith Wigglesworth is not "innocence" per se, but focus. Smith Wigglesworth was married, worked, had friends, etc. but he was focused on the things of God.

The more time we spend with God in prayer & in his word, the more assured we become of our authority in him. Faith is NOW and must constantly be renewed by time in the word; it can't be stored up for if you need it. Kind of like a rechargeable battery, even if you don't use it the charge drains away and must be recharged.

To have that kind of focus in today's world requires daily choices. Is God more important than this TV program? Will this book build my faith or tear it down? on & on

We can't act like the world and then expect to have results different from the world.

Does that answer your question GM?

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

You seem to be strongly advising other Christians how to understand repentance. Are you trying to inform us about what God thinks about sin and repentance?

If you are referring to one's sins as simply having "done wrong" and then all is "forgiven and forgotten" by God, there seems to be something left out of this happy solution.

Sins include real damage to other people.
How can one simply shrug off the effects of one's sins upon others, saying, "All my guilt is vanished, and God does not hold me to the "higher standards" than His Own....assuming that we also have attained complete familiarity with the mind of God.

Regardless of what pain and tragedy sins have inflicted upon others, now we can just happily put our hand in our Heavenly Father's and be favored as good children.

But what about those real persons we have given various amounts of grief and pain?

What of those who, in our sin, listened to us and followed us then? Do we not owe them confessions that what we spoke in sin was vain and false? Moreso, outright admission that those things uttered in our sin we now revoke?

If we now have such favor in God's eyes, are we so covered if we just need to "vent" or to treat others with contempt so long as we hide this behind a cover of humor and fun?



This post is addressed to the post by Izdaari.

It is not in any way meant to demean any CF member.

It is a conservative inquiry into interpretations of scriptures that do not adhere to traditional values.

If Izdaari cares to withdraw her post, as I am asked to do with my reply to hers, I shall immediately.

Green Munchkin posted the Statement of Faith and Guidelines for this forum. I respect that she is not betrayed any who honor that.

:o

I think you're reading into what I wrote rather more than my words say. When did I say that if you've injured someone or led someone astray, you don't need to try to make it right? That you don't need to repent or confess? I said none of that and implied none of that. I am frankly bewildered by all the stuff you seem to have read into it. It is not my way to write things "between the lines": If I have something to say, I will state it plainly. My intent was simply this: Once you've repented and been forgiven, and also done what you can to make things right, it is wrong and foolish to continue to beat oneself up with guilt. There is nothing at all unorthodox or unscriptural about that, though it may run counter to the cultures of certain traditions.

 

[Criada]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

The Bible is full of miracles and healings. Christians are supposed to have the authority to lay hands on people; to cast out demons... and yet very few Christians in the western world actually experince it. Have personally only witnessed one miracle. So am wondering what it is we're doing wrong, or missing.

Most Christians have the God-given authority, but not the faith, or the "innocence", because Christians are so invested in the world. By being so, hearts are hardened to God.

I agree with this, though I think perhaps what you are talking about is what the Bible calls holiness - being separated for and to God.
And more and more, I can see God dealing with this in people - teaching us in different ways that He is all that matters, and that nothing else is worth being attached to.
But that is something only He can do - we can't achieve it by our own efforts, only wait for Him to do it in us, and trust Him to know how. Because He deals with us as individuals - and that is different for each of us.
But if we wait, and trust Him, He will make us holy - because He has promised to!

Hebrews 10:14
because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.