inherently evil?

[want2change]

if we are born sinners [as I've been told, but where is this in the Bible?], are we then inherently evil? or do we start out at "neutral" and then make our way from there?

I guess this is part of a bigger question I've been thinking about and maybe I should explain. a friend of mine who believes in communism told me she was sure it would work eventually because "people are inherently good." I told her I simply don't think we are, then she asked me if I then thought that we are basically evil at heart. well, selfish for sure, but evil? evil seems like such a strong word - just bad and selfish maybe?

I hope that makes some sense. if anyone needs some clarification or more info, just ask.

 

[armothe]

If your definition of Selfish means "Self Preservation" then yes, we are born that way.

I was once told by a pastor that nature affirms creation is born in sin because we see newborn siblings fighting to suckle.

I personally believe we are born without sin, and that through observation and experience we learn to sin and do bad things, however; we can also learn to remove sin from our lives and do good things as well.

-A

 

[holyrokker]

I also believe that we are NOT born sinful.

If a "sinful nature" is inherited, that would make sin a genetic problem, not a moral problem.

If sin were a genetic problem, there would have been no need for Christ to die. He could have simply healed everyone.

 

[Deren]

if we are born sinners [as I've been told, but where is this in the Bible?], are we then inherently evil? or do we start out at "neutral" and then make our way from there?

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.​

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

No one starts out "neutral" and then just kind of/sort of slips into sinning. A person sins because he/she has inherited the sin nature that became Adam's when he rebelled against God.

I guess this is part of a bigger question I've been thinking about and maybe I should explain. a friend of mine who believes in communism told me she was sure it would work eventually because "people are inherently good." I told her I simply don't think we are, then she asked me if I then thought that we are basically evil at heart. well, selfish for sure, but evil? evil seems like such a strong word - just bad and selfish maybe?

Sinners is perhaps the more accurate word to use, since in spite of being sinners, we all have still been created in God's image, which is why we still perform acts of benevolence. So, we're not necessarily inherently evil, per se, as much as we are inherently sinners capable of perpetrating great evil if we allow our sin nature to run rampant.

I hope that makes some sense. if anyone needs some clarification or more info, just ask.

Likewise.

 

[Deren]

I also believe that we are NOT born sinful.

If a "sinful nature" is inherited, that would make sin a genetic problem, not a moral problem.

If sin were a genetic problem, there would have been no need for Christ to die. He could have simply healed everyone.

Sin is not only a genetic problem, it is an ancestral, moral, and spiritual problem as well. As pointed out in another post, we inherited Adam's sin nature, which had a direct effect upon everything, including the whole cosmos. And everytime we commit an act contrary to God's law and God's being, we are merely acting in accord with the sin nature that we possess. So, I'm sorry to inform you my Baptist brother, but we are born in sin, just like David addresses in Ps. 51:5 and Paul in Romans 5:12. To say otherwise is to ignore God's revelation on the matter.

 

[Aibrean]

Romans 3:10 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:23
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;[/FONT]

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.​

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

 

[holyrokker]

Romans 5:12 doesn't say that sin entered humanity through Adam, it says it entered the world.

Psalm 51:5 says more about David's mother than it does making a general statement that applies to all mankind.

David's mother was likely the second wife of Jesse, and had likely been previously married herself to an Ammonite. This would have made her "unclean" in the eyes of the law.
1 Chron 2:13-16 mentions David's half-sisters. They were not the daughters of Jesse, but rather of Nahash, an Ammonite king (1 Sam 11:1, 2 Sam 7:25).

 

[Deren]

Romans 5:12 doesn't say that sin entered humanity through Adam, it says it entered the world.

And yet the whole passage that Paul is writing about is about what? The cosmos entering into sin, or humanity's entrance into sin, via Adam, and its need of redemption through the blood of Christ?

Psalm 51:5 says more about David's mother than it does making a general statement that applies to all mankind.

And David's mother came from a different ancestral lineage than that of Adam? I mean, if just look at Jesus' family tree, both David and Adam are in it. And we know that the only person in that geneaological list that did not sin was Jesus. So, Ps. 51:5 is saying something about what happens to everybody, and not just some off-the-cuff comment about David's mother.

David's mother was likely the second wife of Jesse, and had likely been previously married herself to an Ammonite. This would have made her "unclean" in the eyes of the law.
1 Chron 2:13-16 mentions David's half-sisters. They were not the daughters of Jesse, but rather of Nahash, an Ammonite king (1 Sam 11:1, 2 Sam 7:25).

But, the subject of the Psalm is not David's mother. It is David and his plea that God would have compassion on him amid his sin, which is only committed because a person has a sin nature.

 

[holyrokker]

Romans 5 is comparing Adam's sin with Christ's obedience. Just as sin entered the world through Adam, righteousness comes through Christ.

If you hold that all mankind is automatically sinful due to Adam, based on this passage, you'd also have to hold that all mankind is automatically made righteous through Christ.

 

[Deren]

Romans 5 is comparing Adam's sin with Christ's obedience. Just as sin entered the world through Adam, righteousness comes through Christ.

If you hold that all mankind is automatically sinful due to Adam, based on this passage, you'd also have to hold that all mankind is automatically made righteous through Christ.

Non-sequitur, as well as poor hermeneutical observation, since we know from the rest of Scripture that redemptive righteousness has not been extended to all of humanity. Yet, we know that everyone has sinned, barring the person of Jesus. So, once again, Romans 5:12 teaches the inherent sinfulness of all human beings stemming from their relationship to Adam, as even you point out above.

 

[armothe]

Non-sequitur, as well as poor hermeneutical observation, since we know from the rest of Scripture that redemptive righteousness has not been extended to all of humanity. Yet, we know that everyone has sinned, barring the person of Jesus. So, once again, Romans 5:12 teaches the inherent sinfulness of all human beings stemming from their relationship to Adam, as even you point out above.

Holyrokker's point still stands, though. If sin is a physical/genetic issue, and Christ has removed that sin from both the life of myself and my wife, then our child should be born without a genetic disposition to sin.

-A

 

[Deren]

Holyrokker's point still stands, though. If sin is a physical/genetic issue, and Christ has removed that sin from both the life of myself and my wife, then our child should be born without a genetic disposition to sin.

-A

No, holyr's point does not stand, because it never got on its feet to begin with due to a serious misunderstanding of what the Bible says on the subject. And Christ did not remove the sin nature of you or your wife, if you're a Christian. Jesus removed the penalty and the guilt of your sin, and made you legally righteous before God. Now, later on, when your bodies are glorified, then sure; the sin nature will be removed as well. Until then, you're no different than any other Christian who continues to wrestle with the temptations, and actualizations of sin, in life, as the apostle Paul addressed in Romans 7. Furthermore, your children are born just like all children are, who are the progeny of Adam, with a sin nature, which is why they sin as well. So, unless you're some kind of Neo-Pelagian, then the point or case that people are not born with sin natures, as the Bible speaks to that reality, fails miserably.

 

[holyrokker]

Non-sequitur, as well as poor hermeneutical observation, since we know from the rest of Scripture that redemptive righteousness has not been extended to all of humanity. Yet, we know that everyone has sinned, barring the person of Jesus. So, once again, Romans 5:12 teaches the inherent sinfulness of all human beings stemming from their relationship to Adam, as even you point out above.

You are correct that the righteuosness of Christ does not automatically extend to all mankind. So why do you insist upon interpreting the passage to say that Adam's sin automatically extends to all mankind?

Chapter 5 of Romans is making a case for the superior work of Christ in redemption.

Sin entered the world through a man, thereby righteousness re-enters the world through a Man.

The text does not make all mankind automatically sinful through Adam, just as it does not make all mankind automatically righteous through Christ.

To hold this text as evidence of inherited sin, you must first assume that idea to be true.

THAT is poor hermeneutics.

 

[armothe]

And Christ did not remove the sin nature of you or your wife, if you're a Christian.

Romans 11:27 - " THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

John 1:29 - The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 8:12 - " FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

Hebrews 9:26 - Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Romans 4:8 - " BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

Romans 6:18 - and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

1 John 5:18 - We know that no one who is born of God sins;

You say that Christ's blood was only sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins and it isn't only until we die we become sinless. Are Christians sinless in God's eyes or not?

-A

 

[Deren]

Romans 11:27 - " THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Sins is not the sin nature.

John 1:29

- The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Sin of the world is not the sin nature.

Hebrews 8:12

- " FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

Sins is not the sin nature.

Hebrews 9:26

- Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Putting away sin is not putting away the sin nature.

Romans 4:8

- " BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

Sin is not the sin nature.

Romans 6:18

- and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Being freed from sin is not being freed from the sin nature.

1 John 5:18

- We know that no one who is born of God sins;

Habitually sinning is the context here, and says nothing about the Christian who still has the sin nature (please see Romans 7).

You say that Christ's blood was only sufficient to pay the penalty for our sins and it isn't only until we die we become sinless. Are Christians sinless in God's eyes or not?

Christians have a legal standing, in Christ, as being righteous before God. But, that does not mean that they no longer possess a sin nature, which is why they continue to sin after becoming Christians.

So, nice try, but you have not presented a biblical case which says that Christ's death on the cross did away with the sin nature that all human beings possess, whether Christian or not.

 

[holyrokker]

It seems a bit too convenient to discard armothe's points simply by saying "That's sin, not the sin nature" etc.
You are assuming the existence of a "sin nature".

 

[Deren]

It seems a bit too convenient to discard armothe's points simply by saying "That's sin, not the sin nature" etc.
You are assuming the existence of a "sin nature".

Yeah, it's part of being a "natural man" who cannot or will not accept the spiritual things of God, or "by nature a child of wrath" (cf. 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:3). And since it seems that you still have not looked at what Romans 7 has to say on the subject, here it is for your perusal. Notice how many times that Paul discusses the inherent sin that is still a part of him, and yet he is an apostle of Jesus Christ!

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
​

 

[Your Neighbor]

"Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Job 14:4; Romans 8:7.

"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:7

 

[holyrokker]

Yeah, it's part of being a "natural man" who cannot or will not accept the spiritual things of God, or "by nature a child of wrath" (cf. 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:3). And since it seems that you still have not looked at what Romans 7 has to say on the subject, here it is for your perusal. Notice how many times that Paul discusses the inherent sin that is still a part of him, and yet he is an apostle of Jesus Christ!

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
​

Again - you are assuming that this "sin nature" is inherited. Romans 7 says nothing about sin being inherited.

I don't deny that we struggle with sin. I don't deny that all flesh is ruled by sin.

I deny the teaching that all mankind inherits sin.

We are slaves to sin because we obey the promptings of the flesh rather than the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6:16 "Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?"

Romans 6:19-23 "Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."