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Ingratitude

Mark.E

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One of my problems is that I'm 'ungrateful' for religion in general. I first took a look at Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism in 2016, essentially flipped a coin and decided to visit an EO church for the first time, which started my years-long interest in it.

That's not the full truth. I was prejudiced for EO because it was exotic, exotic contrasted to my Protestant but nonattending upbringing, exotic contrasted to closest-church-down-the-street Evangelicalism, exotic contrasted to the inland American culture I'm familiar with.

Now for months I've been piqued specifically by Twelver Shi'a Islam. Five years ago I would have had a very hard time believing that I would fall this far, but I did, and one of the reasons I'm interested in it is because it's exotic relative to Christianity.

I'm facing more and more evidence that I don't really care about the Truth, that I wouldn't know it if it hid me in the face. I'm ungrateful for the ancient and sturdy Christian practices that I've exposed myself too, rather I'm mostly just interested in culturally and theologically 'shiny things', akin to a begpacker in India or Thailand.

What am I doing wrong, what should I be looking for?
 
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Pavel Mosko

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As much as your determined to frame things negatively, I'm not that convinced that it is negative or unusual. Their is a lot of subjective stuff to people's spiritual experiences etc. And I think modern people often under estimate things, like the importance of other worldlyness of worship aesthetics etc. And seeing how God made use of those things when laying out the temple and tabernacle worship, and those kind of themes also appear in prophetic visions of the worship taking place in heaven.... I think there is something to this. Mostly because I got something similar going on, but don't feel bad about it. :)


I do believe artistic sensibilities very much have their place in worship. Of course in the end they need to be for the right reasons as far as giving glory to God, but we are the ones who really benefit from worship (God enjoys it but doesn't need it).


But on the other hand and in the short term, God often uses our motives, even ones that are more selfish or less noble for his glory and to further us in our journey of Faith. If you look in the Bible for the people seeking to be followers of both King David in his early career, and the multitudes seeking out Jesus they were people with needs. Anyway God meets us where we are in many ways including this one.
 
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jacks

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What am I doing wrong, what should I be looking for?
I don't think you're doing anything wrong, keep seeking with an open mind and the truth will find you. (Praying for guidance helps too.) What should you be looking for? I'd say a trip to some exotic land. Your post is full of references to the unusual and travel.
 
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Sabertooth

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I'm facing more and more evidence that I don't really care about the Truth, that I wouldn't know it if it hid me in the face.
Not just hit us, Truth must break us.
You are not a sinner because you sin;
you sin because you are a sinner.
And you need Someone Else to rescue you from yourself.
Scandalon, Michael Card (1986)
 
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Sketcher

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One of my problems is that I'm 'ungrateful' for religion in general. I first took a look at Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism in 2016, essentially flipped a coin and decided to visit an EO church for the first time, which started my years-long interest in it.

That's not the full truth. I was prejudiced for EO because it was exotic, exotic contrasted to my Protestant but nonattending upbringing, exotic contrasted to closest-church-down-the-street Evangelicalism, exotic contrasted to the inland American culture I'm familiar with.

Now for months I've been piqued specifically by Twelver Shi'a Islam. Five years ago I would have had a very hard time believing that I would fall this far, but I did, and one of the reasons I'm interested in it is because it's exotic relative to Christianity.

I'm facing more and more evidence that I don't really care about the Truth, that I wouldn't know it if it hid me in the face. I'm ungrateful for the ancient and sturdy Christian practices that I've exposed myself too, rather I'm mostly just interested in culturally and theologically 'shiny things', akin to a begpacker in India or Thailand.

What am I doing wrong, what should I be looking for?
Not uncommon. Seems like that's why some Americans get interested in Eastern religions, and why some Americans get tattoos in languages they don't understand.

I'm a Protestant, so I'm biased towards recommending looking into Protestant Christianity in depth. It sounds like your upbringing didn't engage you with that depth.
 
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Mark.E

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Not uncommon. Seems like that's why some Americans get interested in Eastern religions, and why some Americans get tattoos in languages they don't understand.
It sucks to realize that I'm shallow and prone to behavior based on contrarianism, but it helps to be self-aware.

I'm a Protestant, so I'm biased towards recommending looking into Protestant Christianity in depth. It sounds like your upbringing didn't engage you with that depth.
Certain components do set me off about it. Predestination, for example: God already knows where we'll end up, but it's in the same way that He already knows what we'll all have for lunch tomorrow with our free will, so there's no point in us ourselves trying to count those chickens. I'll still take your suggestion seriously and read into Protestantism. Those sects have a combined hundreds of millions of followers, so they must have detailed arguments in defense of their views.
 
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Sketcher

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It sucks to realize that I'm shallow and prone to behavior based on contrarianism, but it helps to be self-aware.
That it does.

Certain components do set me off about it. Predestination, for example: God already knows where we'll end up, but it's in the same way that He already knows what we'll all have for lunch tomorrow with our free will, so there's no point in us ourselves trying to count those chickens. I'll still take your suggestion seriously and read into Protestantism. Those sects have a combined hundreds of millions of followers, so they must have detailed arguments in defense of their views.
Protestants have differing traditions and schools of thought. Some don't believe in any more predestination than Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox accept, others believe everything is predestined. And that's just one issue.
 
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1watchman

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One of my problems is that I'm 'ungrateful' for religion in general. I first took a look at Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism in 2016, essentially flipped a coin and decided to visit an EO church for the first time, which started my years-long interest in it.

That's not the full truth. I was prejudiced for EO because it was exotic, exotic contrasted to my Protestant but nonattending upbringing, exotic contrasted to closest-church-down-the-street Evangelicalism, exotic contrasted to the inland American culture I'm familiar with.

Now for months I've been piqued specifically by Twelver Shi'a Islam. Five years ago I would have had a very hard time believing that I would fall this far, but I did, and one of the reasons I'm interested in it is because it's exotic relative to Christianity.

I'm facing more and more evidence that I don't really care about the Truth, that I wouldn't know it if it hid me in the face. I'm ungrateful for the ancient and sturdy Christian practices that I've exposed myself too, rather I'm mostly just interested in culturally and theologically 'shiny things', akin to a begpacker in India or Thailand.

What am I doing wrong, what should I be looking for?

The big 'error', as you say, was in "flipping a coin", which you apprarently did.
Why did you think that was more a way to Bible truth than reading the Gospels in the New Testament? God speaks to an ernest seeker in such as John 3; John 14; John 17; Romans 8; etc. We need to hear God speaking to us personally, and that is found in the "Word Of God": our Holy Bible; beginning in the New Testament at the four Gospels to learn of REDEMPTION for our eternal soul.
I always recommend the KJV Bible as the best message and most clear to seekers. I use the Scofield KJV Study Bible, which holds to the KJV and shows understandings in the margins of difficult words, with many footnotes to explain meanings for difficult passages. There is, of course, NO difficult passages concerning the four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

If you start reading the Gospels you will learn of redemption and the way to Heaven; and one can learn about Church Truth in the Epistles therein which follows. You need to stop reasoning and read what God wants to say to you --for salvation now and for eternity in Heaven. Religions of men will not get you the full truth of God. It you need help, you can write me at Conversation page herein; and also might inquire at the website: Biblecounsel.net. Keep looking up, and I will pray for you, too. -1watchman
 
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James_Lai

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One of my problems is that I'm 'ungrateful' for religion in general. I first took a look at Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism in 2016, essentially flipped a coin and decided to visit an EO church for the first time, which started my years-long interest in it.

That's not the full truth. I was prejudiced for EO because it was exotic, exotic contrasted to my Protestant but nonattending upbringing, exotic contrasted to closest-church-down-the-street Evangelicalism, exotic contrasted to the inland American culture I'm familiar with.

Now for months I've been piqued specifically by Twelver Shi'a Islam. Five years ago I would have had a very hard time believing that I would fall this far, but I did, and one of the reasons I'm interested in it is because it's exotic relative to Christianity.

I'm facing more and more evidence that I don't really care about the Truth, that I wouldn't know it if it hid me in the face. I'm ungrateful for the ancient and sturdy Christian practices that I've exposed myself too, rather I'm mostly just interested in culturally and theologically 'shiny things', akin to a begpacker in India or Thailand.

What am I doing wrong, what should I be looking for?

So… apart from supermarket style shopping for religion, which is totally fine, what are your own thoughts about spiritual things? Is there God/Gods, do you believe in an eternal soul, dualism of the afterlife, judgement, sin, how about spirits of the deceased, what is our purpose on this earth etc etc or you might have your own ideas not along the above mentioned lines?
 
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Mark.E

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So… apart from supermarket style shopping for religion, which is totally fine, what are your own thoughts about spiritual things? Is there God/Gods, do you believe in an eternal soul, dualism of the afterlife, judgement, sin, how about spirits of the deceased, what is our purpose on this earth etc etc or you might have your own ideas not along the above mentioned lines?
Aquinas, Plotinus, and Avicenna made incredible arguments for the existence of a higher power. Either there's a singularity of creation, or everything that is something came from nothing, so it must be the former. I'm convinced totally that there is a God, that much I know. It's finding out what God expects of us, finding out what the "right" followers of Him practice, that's what frustrates me.
 
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James_Lai

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Aquinas, Plotinus, and Avicenna made incredible arguments for the existence of a higher power. Either there's a singularity of creation, or everything that is something came from nothing, so it must be the former. I'm convinced totally that there is a God, that much I know. It's finding out what God expects of us, finding out what the "right" followers of Him practice, that's what frustrates me.

Though I do respect those arguments, our mind, reach of our logic and sensory perception are so limited that I doubt our observation of the world is anywhere adequate to making any assumption about the higher power(s). A shadow of a line can be cast by a pole or by a wall depending on the position of the light source, a 2D creature would have absolutely no way of knowing it.

Nevertheless, I also see the hand of God/Gods in everything! I agree, the question is, what does She/He/It or do They want from us. I settle on Love for now, it’s the only thing that makes sense to me this far.

How about all the spiritual phenomena? Soul, spirits, jinns, Jannah and Jahannam etc etc? The lower level so to speak. Do you have an opinion?

I don’t understand why you feel ungrateful to EO for rejecting their centuries of knowledge and experience. There’s no obligation for us to accept anything
 
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ViaCrucis

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One of my problems is that I'm 'ungrateful' for religion in general. I first took a look at Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism in 2016, essentially flipped a coin and decided to visit an EO church for the first time, which started my years-long interest in it.

That's not the full truth. I was prejudiced for EO because it was exotic, exotic contrasted to my Protestant but nonattending upbringing, exotic contrasted to closest-church-down-the-street Evangelicalism, exotic contrasted to the inland American culture I'm familiar with.

Now for months I've been piqued specifically by Twelver Shi'a Islam. Five years ago I would have had a very hard time believing that I would fall this far, but I did, and one of the reasons I'm interested in it is because it's exotic relative to Christianity.

I'm facing more and more evidence that I don't really care about the Truth, that I wouldn't know it if it hid me in the face. I'm ungrateful for the ancient and sturdy Christian practices that I've exposed myself too, rather I'm mostly just interested in culturally and theologically 'shiny things', akin to a begpacker in India or Thailand.

What am I doing wrong, what should I be looking for?

It can be difficult to recognize the absence of something until we feel its loss.

In the Lutheran tradition we confess that we can't find God by looking for Him, because the places we look for God obscure Him, we try to find God either by looking at the shiny things out there, or by looking inside of ourselves; and either way we come against a wall.

St. Paul in his letter to the Church in Rome talks about the way creation bears witness to God's glory, His wisdom, power, and divine majesty--but that doesn't lead people to Him. Instead people fashion their own idols, their own ideas of God, worshiping created things rather than the Creator. As such we speak of God in His hiddenness (Deus Absconditus). God is said to be "hidden" behind His glory. This includes God hidden behind the glory of His own Law--to try and find God in God's commandments will result in a skewed and distorted image of God. Only God revealed (Deus Revelatus) lets us know God--God revealed and clothed in the flesh, weakness, and suffering of Jesus.

Lutherans argue that there is a vital distinction to be made between God's Law, and the Gospel; the Law is what human beings ought to do and be: reflect God's image and likeness by loving and serving others ("Love your neighbor as yourself"). The problem is that we don't do this, we don't love our neighbor, because our desires have been distorted, disordered, and bent inward rather than outward; we have become inwardly bent or curved persons. This inwardly-curved disordering of our desires or "passions" is often called "the flesh" in the New Testament; and is the reason why the Law even though it commands life and goodness that we might live and thrive in peace with God and neighbor instead brings condemnation, even death to me. For I behold what I should do, and indeed that it is right to do it, but yet I don't: the good that I want to do I don't do, and the evil I don't want to do is what I do anyway.

The end result of this is that whether we flagrantly disregard the way of life or try to live a good, moral, and righteous life according to it, we remain alienated from God, and alienated from one another, and we remain unjust in word, thought, and action. In this way the Law becomes a curse rather than a blessing, it becomes a hammer of death rather than an invitation to life. Because of sin, we are victims and held in bondage to those very sinful passions. Whether one chooses a life of hedonistic indulgence or a life of extreme rigorous asceticism, man remains helplessly captive to himself. So St. Paul writes in his first epistle to the Corinthians, "even if I sell all my possessions and give everything to the poor, or offer my body over to be burned in the fire, if I have not love, I gain nothing."

When the person becomes aware of this, as though a light in their conscience has lit up, the inevitable result is that beholding God in the Law produces fear, dread, the stark reality that I am not holy. I behold God through the Law and I am terrified. Seeing God through the Law results in us beholding an angry and wrathful God; so great is the guilt upon the conscience. The tragic reality is that many get stuck here, stuck in this place of fear and terror and only able to view God as angry. Some may get stuck here and come to resent and hate God--or at least come to hate those things which is associated with God because of this. Some instead come to lie to themselves, and they start to believe themselves good, righteous, holy--and they view the point of religion as a road toward glory--to be rewarded rather than punished--for having accrued the right number of brownie points with God by observing arbitrary moralistic rules; and so grows hypocrisy and arrogance and pride. Some, in their despair of this, live daily with immense guilt, guilt they cannot rid themselves of no matter how hard they try.

For Lutherans this is precisely what St. Paul himself writes in his letters in the New Testament: the person who tries to be justified by the Law is instead condemned by it, and that the Law is powerless to make anyone righteous. However, and this is the most important however, the Good News--the Gospel--is that God loves sinners and it is His will and His work, through Jesus Christ, to restore human beings to communion with Himself. By giving us His righteousness, as a gift. So that the one who trusts in Christ is justified in and by Christ--and the one who stands in Christ is righteous before God the Father. That is what forgiveness of sins means, we are forgiven, the record of wrongs is not reckoned against us; we are as prisoners set free from the dungeon cell, as slaves whose chains have been destroyed and we have been given freedom and liberty. So that, as Paul writes, "What the Law was powerless to do because of the weakness of our flesh, God has done by sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh in order that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans, Romans 8:3-4).

To quote Pastor Martin Luther,

"If you have faith in Christ your Savior, then at once you have a gracious God, for faith leads you in and opens up God's heart and will, that you should see pure grace and overflowing love. This it is to behold God in faith that you should look upon His fatherly, friendly heart, in which there is no anger nor ungraciousness. He who sees God as angry does not see Him rightly, but looks only on a curtain, as if a dark cloud had been drawn across His face."

-CryptoLutheran
 
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