You think you do. I will post whatever links that I please. You don't get to say what I post.Oh boy, we gonna start this again?
FYI: when I researched this back in 2007, I did my research, I know what Catholicism teaches.
So please, no more links.
God Bless
Till all are one.
God's justice demands your destruction. God's mercy is his choice for all have sinned. Do a study on mercy. God will be merciful and compassionate to whom he will while hardening whom he will.
It is. God says the soul that sins shall dieDeuteronomy 10:18
He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing.
So, God demands destruction for the fatherless and the widow? My father died four years ago; does this mean He will administer justice for me and demand my destruction? My mother is a widow; will He administer justice for her and demand her destruction? What kind of sick person thinks this way?
Deuteronomy 16:19
You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous.
Oh yes, God tells us not to pervert justice and show partiality, but some will tell you God can pervert justice and show partiality. Sick thinking!
2 Samuel 8:15
So David reigned over all Israel; and David administered judgment and justice to all his people.
Here we have David administering justice to his people. According to some, that is demanding destruction to his people. Sick thinking!
2 Samuel 15:4
Moreover Absalom would say, “Oh, that I were made judge in the land, and everyone who has any suit or cause would come to me; then I would give him justice.”
Absalom desired to be a judge in the land, so that anyone who has a suit or cause would come to him that he would give him justice, that is, demand his destruction. Sick thinking!
Job 36:6
He does not preserve the life of the wicked, but gives justice to the oppressed.
Hmmm, God does not preserve the life of the wicked, but gives justice, that is, demands destruction to the oppressed. Sick thinking!
Psalm 25:9
The humble He guides in justice, and the humble He teaches His way.
To the humble, God guides in destruction. Sick thinking!
Psalm 72:4
He will bring justice to the poor of the people; He will save the children of the needy, And will break in pieces the oppressor.
Wow! God will bring justice, that is, demand destruction to the poor. Sick thinking!
Psalm 82:3
Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Here God tells us to demand destruction to the afflicted and needy. Sick thinking!
Psalm 119:149
Hear my voice according to Your lovingkindness; O Lord, revive me according to Your justice.
Here David asks God to revive him according to His demand for destruction. Sick thinking!
Isaiah 1:27
Zion shall be redeemed with justice, And her penitents with righteousness.
What do you know? Zion will be redeemed with a demand of destruction. Sick thinking!
Isaiah 42:1
“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Jesus, will bring forth justice, that is, demand destruction to the Gentiles. Sick thinking!
Jeremiah 10:24
O Lord, correct me, but with justice; not in Your anger, lest You bring me to nothing.
Jeremiah asked God to correct him with justice, that is, demanding destruction. Sick thinking!
Hosea 2:19
“I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me In righteousness and justice, In loving kindness and mercy;
How about that? God will betroth us forever in justice, that is, demanding destruction. Sick thinking!
Zechariah 7:9
Thus says the Lord of hosts: execute true justice, show mercy and compassion everyone to his brother.
God tells us to show mercy and compassion to our brother, BUT execute true justice, that is, demand destruction for them. Sick thinking!
There you have Calvinist thinking on justice. To them, justice is destruction.
Deuteronomy 10:18
He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing.
So, God demands destruction for the fatherless and the widow? My father died four years ago; does this mean He will administer justice for me and demand my destruction? My mother is a widow; will He administer justice for her and demand her destruction? What kind of sick person thinks this way?
Deuteronomy 16:19
You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous.
Oh yes, God tells us not to pervert justice and show partiality, but some will tell you God can pervert justice and show partiality. Sick thinking!
2 Samuel 8:15
So David reigned over all Israel; and David administered judgment and justice to all his people.
Here we have David administering justice to his people. According to some, that is demanding destruction to his people. Sick thinking!
2 Samuel 15:4
Moreover Absalom would say, “Oh, that I were made judge in the land, and everyone who has any suit or cause would come to me; then I would give him justice.”
Absalom desired to be a judge in the land, so that anyone who has a suit or cause would come to him that he would give him justice, that is, demand his destruction. Sick thinking!
Job 36:6
He does not preserve the life of the wicked, but gives justice to the oppressed.
Hmmm, God does not preserve the life of the wicked, but gives justice, that is, demands destruction to the oppressed. Sick thinking!
Psalm 25:9
The humble He guides in justice, and the humble He teaches His way.
To the humble, God guides in destruction. Sick thinking!
Psalm 72:4
He will bring justice to the poor of the people; He will save the children of the needy, And will break in pieces the oppressor.
Wow! God will bring justice, that is, demand destruction to the poor. Sick thinking!
Psalm 82:3
Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Here God tells us to demand destruction to the afflicted and needy. Sick thinking!
Psalm 119:149
Hear my voice according to Your lovingkindness; O Lord, revive me according to Your justice.
Here David asks God to revive him according to His demand for destruction. Sick thinking!
Isaiah 1:27
Zion shall be redeemed with justice, And her penitents with righteousness.
What do you know? Zion will be redeemed with a demand of destruction. Sick thinking!
Isaiah 42:1
“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Jesus, will bring forth justice, that is, demand destruction to the Gentiles. Sick thinking!
Jeremiah 10:24
O Lord, correct me, but with justice; not in Your anger, lest You bring me to nothing.
Jeremiah asked God to correct him with justice, that is, demanding destruction. Sick thinking!
Hosea 2:19
“I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me In righteousness and justice, In loving kindness and mercy;
How about that? God will betroth us forever in justice, that is, demanding destruction. Sick thinking!
Zechariah 7:9
Thus says the Lord of hosts: execute true justice, show mercy and compassion everyone to his brother.
God tells us to show mercy and compassion to our brother, BUT execute true justice, that is, demand destruction for them. Sick thinking!
There you have Calvinist thinking on justice. To them, justice is destruction.
It is. God says the soul that sins shall die
All you did was post verses of a nation Israel in a covenant with God which offered sacrifices for their sins. God chose to show mercy in remembering Abraham and the promises God had made regarding that.
Israel was redeemed and distinct from all the other peoples of the earth, God showing them mercy. God shows mercy to His people in both old and new covenants. He shows mercy most certainly to those He has redeemed.
Exodus 15:13
You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength To Your holy habitation.
Exodus 2:24
So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Exodus 6:5
And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel whom the Egyptians keep in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant.
Although without a continual reminder of scripture, some people look away and quickly forget what God says and prefer their own evil imaginations about God.
and even pointing out things in the scripture, they refuse to believe it.
James 1:23-25New King James Version (NKJV)
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
I'm afraid what you are trying to explain is condemnation, not justice. Judgment determines release or condemnation, guilt or no guilt. Justice is righteous acts, that is, doing what is right. After judgment, comes either condemnation (bringing guilt upon the guilty) or justice (bringing release upon the innocent).
About raging,
Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
Psalm 1
The Way of the Righteous and the End of the Ungodly
1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He shall be like a tree
Planted by the rivers of water,
That brings forth its fruit in its season,
Whose leaf also shall not wither;
And whatever he does shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so,
But are like the chaff which the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the ungodly shall perish
A big problem is you do not discern the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, as all scripture is inspired of God.
You reject it seems at least half the NT as written by a raving lunatic named Paul who is a false apostle.
"Because justification is forensic in nature and a legal term, therefore justification deals with the believers standing in relation to the “Law”. So we state that justification refers not to a change in moral character, but solely to a change in legal status. Whereas we once stood condemned by the “Law” in our sinful state, the believer has now passed from a state of condemnation to one of acceptance through the obedience and fulfillment of the requirements that are received by faith alone, thus changing us to righteous and justified by imputation by an act of God
The Roman Catholic Church stands opposed to this in that they believe there is an “infusion” of grace. We do not say this harshly, for many of the great doctrines of the Bible were preserved by them. However, their doctrine concerning justification betrays its “man-centered” theology. An overview of their doctrine shows that they readily admit that there is no good in fallen man; that he can merit nothing and claim nothing on the ground of anything he is, or can do himself. He is by nature, dead in sin, and until he is made a partaker of a new life by the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit, he can do nothing but sin. For Christ’s sake, and only through His merits, as a matter of grace, this new life is “imparted” to the soul in regeneration (as they define regeneration through baptism). As life expels death; as light dispels darkness; so the entrance of this new divine life into the soul expels sin (sinful habits), and brings forth the fruits of righteousness.
Works done after regeneration have “real” merit. “Meritum condigmi”, and are the ground for a second justification; the first justification consisting in making the soul inherently just by the infusion of righteousness. Now, according to this view, we are not justified by works done before regeneration, but we are justified for gracious works, i.e.: for works which spring from the principle of divine life infused into the heart. Thus the whole ground of our acceptance with God is made to be what we are, and what we can do.
Infusion stands opposed to imputation. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines “infuse” as: 1.To cause to be permeated with something (as a principle or quality that alters usually for the better).
2.Inspire, animate.
3.To steep in liquid (as water) without baiting so as to extract soluble constituents or principles.
4.To administer or inject by infusion.
Standing opposed to this is the Greek word “ellogew” “From en logw, this means “to lay to account”, and id this a so-called “hypostasis” like “egceirein” from en ceiri”
Properly, “imputation” is an accounting term. An example of this is the statement made by the Apostle Paul in the book of Philemon. Paul says to Onesemus that if he has suffered any loss because of the runaway slave Philemon, that he should lay that “to his account”. (cf. Phlm. 18) Any debt that Onesemus accrued from the loss, that he should “charge” that to his account.
The idea being expressed here is that there is a great accounting book. In it, are all the liabilities (specifically our sins) of men on one side, and on the debit (credit) side is the righteousness of Christ. In the saving act of the cross, Christ had mans liabilities charged, laid to His account, imputed to Him. And when the repentant comes to Christ in repentance, believing by faith that He is the Son of God, crucified for their sins, risen from the dead on the third day, our liabilities, our sins, are imputed to Christ, and forgiven, then by imputation, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.
Salvation is by grace through faith, (cf. Eph. 2:8) of this, nearly nobody disagrees. The scriptures clearly teach that our righteousness, our justification, comes by imputation and not by infusion."
This comes from a study I did on the Baptist perspective on justification.
Forget the "justification" part.
Focus on the two words "infused" and "imputed"
I have been told I'm wrong because I support the "imputed" side of the argument.
Which is it: infused or imputed?
"Because justification is forensic in nature and a legal term, therefore justification deals with the believers standing in relation to the “Law”. So we state that justification refers not to a change in moral character, but solely to a change in legal status. Whereas we once stood condemned by the “Law” in our sinful state, the believer has now passed from a state of condemnation to one of acceptance through the obedience and fulfillment of the requirements that are received by faith alone, thus changing us to righteous and justified by imputation by an act of God
The Roman Catholic Church stands opposed to this in that they believe there is an “infusion” of grace. We do not say this harshly, for many of the great doctrines of the Bible were preserved by them. However, their doctrine concerning justification betrays its “man-centered” theology. An overview of their doctrine shows that they readily admit that there is no good in fallen man; that he can merit nothing and claim nothing on the ground of anything he is, or can do himself. He is by nature, dead in sin, and until he is made a partaker of a new life by the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit, he can do nothing but sin. For Christ’s sake, and only through His merits, as a matter of grace, this new life is “imparted” to the soul in regeneration (as they define regeneration through baptism). As life expels death; as light dispels darkness; so the entrance of this new divine life into the soul expels sin (sinful habits), and brings forth the fruits of righteousness.
Works done after regeneration have “real” merit. “Meritum condigmi”, and are the ground for a second justification; the first justification consisting in making the soul inherently just by the infusion of righteousness. Now, according to this view, we are not justified by works done before regeneration, but we are justified for gracious works, i.e.: for works which spring from the principle of divine life infused into the heart. Thus the whole ground of our acceptance with God is made to be what we are, and what we can do.
Infusion stands opposed to imputation. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines “infuse” as: 1.To cause to be permeated with something (as a principle or quality that alters usually for the better).
2.Inspire, animate.
3.To steep in liquid (as water) without baiting so as to extract soluble constituents or principles.
4.To administer or inject by infusion.
Standing opposed to this is the Greek word “ellogew” “From en logw, this means “to lay to account”, and id this a so-called “hypostasis” like “egceirein” from en ceiri”
Properly, “imputation” is an accounting term. An example of this is the statement made by the Apostle Paul in the book of Philemon. Paul says to Onesemus that if he has suffered any loss because of the runaway slave Philemon, that he should lay that “to his account”. (cf. Phlm. 18) Any debt that Onesemus accrued from the loss, that he should “charge” that to his account.
The idea being expressed here is that there is a great accounting book. In it, are all the liabilities (specifically our sins) of men on one side, and on the debit (credit) side is the righteousness of Christ. In the saving act of the cross, Christ had mans liabilities charged, laid to His account, imputed to Him. And when the repentant comes to Christ in repentance, believing by faith that He is the Son of God, crucified for their sins, risen from the dead on the third day, our liabilities, our sins, are imputed to Christ, and forgiven, then by imputation, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.
Salvation is by grace through faith, (cf. Eph. 2:8) of this, nearly nobody disagrees. The scriptures clearly teach that our righteousness, our justification, comes by imputation and not by infusion."
This comes from a study I did on the Baptist perspective on justification.
Forget the "justification" part.
Focus on the two words "infused" and "imputed"
I have been told I'm wrong because I support the "imputed" side of the argument.
Which is it: infused or imputed?
God Bless
Till all are one.
Messianics are divided on that, probably due to the influence of Calvinism. (yes we have some of those)
I am following Wesley on that one.
The best exegesis on that is in Dr Derek Prince's Foundation Series.
Are you trying to imply that Methodists, Pentecostals et al are NOT protestant?
It is neither: infused or imputed and yet there are elements of both ideas.
Paul wanted to take the Onesimus’ Debt owed Philemon off of Onesimus and placed on him and this would be imputing from Onesimus to Paul.
The “debt” Paul is talking about would be an actual dollar amount and thus easily transferable.
Taking the negative: Ro. 4: 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited (reckoned/imputed) as a gift but as an obligation.
So would turning this idea around to a positive say: Those that do not “work for it” but have faith, the reward is “imputed” to them as a gift (unconditional free gift)?
The question is not about transferring some physical debt or if the reward is earned or not, but if we can take Christ’s righteousness and either infuse or impute to a person prior to or right at their being saved?
The righteous individuals, the Hebrew writer talks about, were the result of the individual’s faith and did not say: “Their righteousness was the result of Christ’s righteousness being imputed to them”, and the writer gives the OT examples for us to be of like faith.
The Jews would not have felt their sin offering of flour imputed their personal sins on the altar, but God forgave those sins after they went through the atonement process.
If we are infused or imputed with Christ’s righteousness that we are “deserving” of grace, since Christ righteousness was deserving of grace and we are in no need of forgiveness and God is not giving us an unconditional free gift, but something we deserve?
Do we not need to become righteous the way Abraham and other OT righteous individuals became righteous through “faith”?
Justification is another add on subject.
It is neither: infused or imputed and yet there are elements of both ideas.
Paul wanted to take the Onesimus’ Debt owed Philemon off of Onesimus and placed on him and this would be imputing from Onesimus to Paul.
The “debt” Paul is talking about would be an actual dollar amount and thus easily transferable.
Taking the negative: Ro. 4: 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited (reckoned/imputed) as a gift but as an obligation.
So would turning this idea around to a positive say: Those that do not “work for it” but have faith, the reward is “imputed” to them as a gift (unconditional free gift)?
The question is not about transferring some physical debt or if the reward is earned or not, but if we can take Christ’s righteousness and either infuse or impute to a person prior to or right at their being saved?
The righteous individuals, the Hebrew writer talks about, were the result of the individual’s faith and did not say: “Their righteousness was the result of Christ’s righteousness being imputed to them”, and the writer gives the OT examples for us to be of like faith.
The Jews would not have felt their sin offering of flour imputed their personal sins on the altar, but God forgave those sins after they went through the atonement process.
If we are infused or imputed with Christ’s righteousness that we are “deserving” of grace, since Christ righteousness was deserving of grace and we are in no need of forgiveness and God is not giving us an unconditional free gift, but something we deserve?
Do we not need to become righteous the way Abraham and other OT righteous individuals became righteous through “faith”?
Justification is another add on subject.
You think you do. I will post whatever links that I please. You don't get to say what I post.
It is neither: infused or imputed and yet there are elements of both ideas.
Paul wanted to take the Onesimus’ Debt owed Philemon off of Onesimus and placed on him and this would be imputing from Onesimus to Paul.
The “debt” Paul is talking about would be an actual dollar amount and thus easily transferable.
Taking the negative: Ro. 4: 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited (reckoned/imputed) as a gift but as an obligation.
So would turning this idea around to a positive say: Those that do not “work for it” but have faith, the reward is “imputed” to them as a gift (unconditional free gift)?
The question is not about transferring some physical debt or if the reward is earned or not, but if we can take Christ’s righteousness and either infuse or impute to a person prior to or right at their being saved?
The righteous individuals, the Hebrew writer talks about, were the result of the individual’s faith and did not say: “Their righteousness was the result of Christ’s righteousness being imputed to them”, and the writer gives the OT examples for us to be of like faith.
The Jews would not have felt their sin offering of flour imputed their personal sins on the altar, but God forgave those sins after they went through the atonement process.
If we are infused or imputed with Christ’s righteousness that we are “deserving” of grace, since Christ righteousness was deserving of grace and we are in no need of forgiveness and God is not giving us an unconditional free gift, but something we deserve?
Do we not need to become righteous the way Abraham and other OT righteous individuals became righteous through “faith”?
Justification is another add on subject.
Just as a sidenote, Catholics may be the only ones who admit to Protestant demonization to begin with. Sorry, couldn't help it.
It was just meant as a play on your words. Reread your own post -carefully.A certain member here, has albut accused me of not knowing what I was talking about.
All you have to do is look at this thread to see who it is.
Now I admit, I have not gone through Catechism classes, as a Baptist, why would I?
But in seminary, I studied Catholicism. I studied the "History of Christianity". (Matter f fact, in 2003 when studying Catholicism, one of our books to read and study was a 2003 edition of "Catechisms of the Catholic Church."
I know as well as you that both Catholics and Protestants come to salvation the same way. I KNOW THAT!
I just find it hard to believe that in spite of that, there is something "lacking" for lack of a better word, in the justification wrought by Christ.
I find it hard to believe that "justification" is "progressive" like sanctification.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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