• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

  • The rule regarding AI content has been updated. The rule now rules as follows:

    Be sure to credit AI when copying and pasting AI sources. Link to the site of the AI search, just like linking to an article.

"Information and Freewill."

To know

Member
Jun 17, 2019
10
4
63
Ohio
✟23,617.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"If its proven that information is permanently lost in a black hole, and thus resolving the Information Parodox, could this fact have a positive baring for Freewill? After all, such a discovery would eliminate quantum determinism, causality, and microreversability, and thus cause and effect.
 

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
9,504
10,372
✟302,925.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
"If its proven that information is permanently lost in a black hole, and thus resolving the Information Parodox, could this fact have a positive baring for Freewill? After all, such a discovery would eliminate quantum determinism, causality, and microreversability, and thus cause and effect.
Imagine I know next to nothing about this. Why would this eliminate causality?
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,435
52,722
Guam
✟5,182,747.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"If its proven that information is permanently lost in a black hole, and thus resolving the Information Parodox, could this fact have a positive baring for Freewill?
No?
 
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,125
6,875
California
✟61,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
...wait...wut...


*The black hole information paradox[1] is a puzzle resulting from the combination of quantum mechanics and general relativity. Calculations suggest that physical information could permanently disappear in a black hole, allowing many physical states to devolve into the same state. This is controversial because it violates a core precept of modern physics—that in principle the value of a wave function of a physical system at one point in time should determine its value at any other time.[2][3] A fundamental postulate of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is that complete information about a system is encoded in its wave function up to when the wave function collapses. The evolution of the wave function is determined by a unitary operator, and unitarity implies that information is conserved in the quantum sense.
Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia

**I can dig it...
 
Upvote 0

Tone

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."
Site Supporter
Dec 24, 2018
15,125
6,875
California
✟61,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
"If its proven that information is permanently lost in a black hole, and thus resolving the Information Parodox, could this fact have a positive baring for Freewill? After all, such a discovery would eliminate quantum determinism, causality, and microreversability, and thus cause and effect.

"Positive baring for Freewill"? So, are you saying that the rise of freewill is the key to the origin of life on earth?
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,407
8,144
✟358,196.00
Faith
Atheist
"If its proven that information is permanently lost in a black hole, and thus resolving the Information Parodox, could this fact have a positive baring for Freewill? After all, such a discovery would eliminate quantum determinism, causality, and microreversability, and thus cause and effect.
On the contrary, if it were shown that information is permanently lost in a black hole, that would reinforce the information paradox; it is fundamental to quantum mechanics that information should not be lost.

Causality is another name for cause and effect, so your claim has some redundancy. However, causality is not part of fundamental physics, it's an emergent phenomenon of the arrow of time, which is a result of the low initial entropy of the universe.

Regardless, whether the universe is deterministic or not, we will still have the same subjective experience of free will. How you account for this in your metaphysics is a matter of personal preference.

"We must believe in free will, we have no other choice" - Isaac Bashevis Singer
 
Upvote 0

To know

Member
Jun 17, 2019
10
4
63
Ohio
✟23,617.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Imagine I know next to nothing about this. Why would this eliminate causality?
"Hello, Ophiolite! Thanks for your response. Causality is cause and effect, correct? So, if determinism is obliterated, and you don't possess knowledge of a systems probable past histories, or the probabilistic outcomes of its future, all you'll know is its present state. I'm not a physicist or a philosopher, but wouldn't this impede ones attempt at understanding a systems current state, and render cause and effect meaningless? Please have mercy on me with your answer, and reply in laymens language. Thanks!"
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
9,504
10,372
✟302,925.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
"Hello, Ophiolite! Thanks for your response. Causality is cause and effect, correct? So, if determinism is obliterated, and you don't possess knowledge of a systems probable past histories, or the probabilistic outcomes of its future, all you'll know is its present state. I'm not a physicist or a philosopher, but wouldn't this impede ones attempt at understanding a systems current state, and render cause and effect meaningless? Please have mercy on me with your answer, and reply in laymens language. Thanks!"
I see no connection between those points and the loss of information in a black hole. It was that connection I was seeking an explanation for. "Obliteration of determinism" in one discrete portion of the universe, that has characteristics absent from all the rest of the universe, seems unlikely to extend the consequences from the black hole to everywhere else.

That could seem like an Argument from Ignorance. That was why I was asking you to remove my ignorance. So far you have been unsuccessful. :)
 
Upvote 0

To know

Member
Jun 17, 2019
10
4
63
Ohio
✟23,617.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I see no connection between those points and the loss of information in a black hole. It was that connection I was seeking an explanation for. "Obliteration of determinism" in one discrete portion of the universe, that has characteristics absent from all the rest of the universe, seems unlikely to extend the consequences from the black hole to everywhere else.

That could seem like an Argument from Ignorance. That was why I was asking you to remove my ignorance. So far you have been unsuccessful. :)


I see no connection between those points and the loss of information in a black hole. It was that connection I was seeking an explanation for. "Obliteration of determinism" in one discrete portion of the universe, that has characteristics absent from all the rest of the universe, seems unlikely to extend the consequences from the black hole to everywhere else.

That could seem like an Argument from Ignorance. That was why I was asking you to remove my ignorance. So far you have been unsuccessful. :)[/QUOTE
I see no connection between those points and the loss of information in a black hole. It was that connection I was seeking an explanation for. "Obliteration of determinism" in one discrete portion of the universe, that has characteristics absent from all the rest of the universe, seems unlikely to extend the consequences from the black hole to everywhere else.

That could seem like an Argument from Ignorance. That was why I was asking you to remove my ignorance. So far you have been unsuccessful. :)
I see no connection between those points and the loss of information in a black hole. It was that connection I was seeking an explanation for. "Obliteration of determinism" in one discrete portion of the universe, that has characteristics absent from all the rest of the universe, seems unlikely to extend the consequences from the black hole to everywhere else.

That could seem like an Argument from Ignorance. That was why I was asking you to remove my ignorance. So far you have been unsuccessful. :)

Hello, Ophiolite, and I appreciate your understandable answer! But what about the, "Cosmic Censorship Conjecture", proposed by Roger Penrose? In the case of a naked singularity, would the loss of information also be localized to that particular region of space, like that of a hidden singularity(black hole)? Or would an observer, or the entire universe, suffer a collapse of quantum determinism, and have catastrophic ramifications for relativity, in general? I'm obviously no Hawking, so excuse any "elementary" questions! Thanks!
 
Upvote 0

SelfSim

A non "-ist"
Jun 23, 2014
7,049
2,233
✟218,350.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Private
Just watching this conversation ... it covers some very big topics and needs considerable depth of knowledge in theoretical Classical and Quantum Physics, in order to come to grips with the ramifications of the hypotheticals being posed.

The matter was also covered many years ago when Hawking claimed loss of information. At that time, various unintuitve theoretical considerations were brought to bear on the problem and as far as QM was concerned, Hawking's claim has been explained satisfactorily and QM lives on .. there is no information loss when the theoretically valid contexts are adopted.

The current 'locality' (to a black hole region) issue raised, is thus rendered moot by these theoretically valid viewpoints.

It would seem that physicists are well aware that some hypothetical queries don't actually aid in the pursuit of predictability and practically useful physics, particularly when valid contrary explanations have been presented.
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
9,504
10,372
✟302,925.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Hello, Ophiolite, and I appreciate your understandable answer! But what about the, "Cosmic Censorship Conjecture", proposed by Roger Penrose? In the case of a naked singularity, would the loss of information also be localized to that particular region of space, like that of a hidden singularity(black hole)? Or would an observer, or the entire universe, suffer a collapse of quantum determinism, and have catastrophic ramifications for relativity, in general? I'm obviously no Hawking, so excuse any "elementary" questions! Thanks!
You need to sort your QUOTE boxes.

In my first post in the thread I said "imagine I know next to nothing". That was because, by so imagining, you would arrive at a close approximation to reality. It was my intention to ask the questions, while you provided the answers. In this field trying it the other way round is madness.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: SelfSim
Upvote 0