Infinite monkey theorem vs first life

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Hey hey brother
Atheists play chess with pigeons?

This may help: Pigeon Chess

 

[46AND2]

Hey hey

If you say so.



Nah. I chose to word it this way and i rarely ever dive in without contemplation.



This subject matter comes up later and I will see how you reply to it.

So does this mean - your opinion of the matter - the Theory of Evolution is compatible with concept of The God of Abraham as Creator?

You speak as though there is only one concept of the Christian god. This is incorrect. There are many. Evolution is compatible with some, and not with others. Therefore, in order to answer your question, as I have, all I need to do is show that at least one of them is compatible.

If god can do anything he wants, as many Christians claim, then evolution is, by definition, compatible. Since evolution is necessarily included within "anything."

You suggest God can do anything so boom, compatible?

No, I suggest many, even most, Christians suggest he can do anything. Clearly, if I don't believe he exists, I would not suggest he can do some thing at all.

Yes or no?

This is why I specifically asked you if you believe he can do anything he wants. It is entirely up to YOUR concept of god. If you believe that he can, then it is obviously true that he can be compatible with evolution. It's your concept, not mine. He can do anything you want him to do in the same way Harry Potter can do anything that Rowling wants him to do.

In other words, if you define your concept of god to exclude the possibility of evolution, THEN THERE IS NOTHING that can make evolution compatible. It simply defies your definition.

But that wasn't what I was asking you. I was asking you what might make you alter your concept of god. What kind of new information might make you realize that you were wrong to exclude evolution in the first place? After all, god says that no man can really know him, right? you need the verse on that?

I disagree and still stand by my conclusions regarding your effort but lets see how this discussion progresses



Sorry my dear, i do not see.

You said: "Your and my God CAN do anything He wants but the next question is what does He do and what does He not do."

In order to determine what he does and does not do, it requires an interpretation of what the Bible says.

Which is exactly why I knew what you were really asking...you want evidence that is consistent with YOUR concept of god, not THE concept of god.

I purposely left out where in Scripture those verses can be found , to make sure you read them.

I have read them. Many times. Even memorized some of them. Your manipulation was unnecessary.

That was actual scripture and not my own spin. What you think now?

You asked me after quoting the verses about god not lying;

"when we examine your bare requirements - is it possible that the God of Abraham created the world through evolution?"

Hypothetically, let's assume that evolution is absolutely true (don't complain, your entire line of questioning asks me to assume that god is true), and you were forced to accept it. Would you think that god lied, or would you question your own understanding of what god has done and said?

A lie is an intentionally false statement. I have not found anything in the word of God that i would consider dishonest.

So? You don't think you could be fooled by a perfect liar?

I have a relationship with God through the Holy Spirit. Granted He has not specifically told me He does not lie but i put my trust in Him and what has been revealed to us through His Word - and His promise.

I received the Spirit by following His Word and having faith in Him to do What He says he will do. I got a result in what God said was the truth.

Ok. Still not seeing any indication of how you would know that you weren't being lied to by a supreme being. I don't know about you, but I've been fooled by HUMAN lies. Pretty sure an all-powerful being could dupe me pretty easily. Don't you? If not, you think even more highly of yourself than I thought.

Lies are proven false when a lie is uncovered.

Yes, of course. Question is, how do you uncover the lie of an all-powerful god?

Do you believe that God had lied or does lie?

Again, I don't believe he exists. You really need to stop asking questions that assume such things. They really are worthless.

If you want to know if I think the god of the Bible COULD lie...yes, of course:

1. He can do whatever the authors want him to do.
2. Telling me that he won't lie doesn't mean much if you consider the possibility that he does lie, because
3. If he's real, and he lies, we can't know.

Also what do you think about my reply?




I do not think so. It seems You may be implying that because humans lie therefore so would a God who created them. This logic is unsound.

Not implying that at all. Merely asking you the question, if he does lie, how could you know?

Lets look at the statement 'i cant murder'. Is that exactly what a murderer would say?

Poor analogy. It misses the nuance of: if a liar says "I cannot lie" how do you know he is not lying?

This subject matter re if God lies is relevant to your question in post 353.

46and2 - "Unless you don't agree that your god could have done anything he wanted?"

So i responded by saying "Your and my God CAN do anything He wants but the next question is what does He do and what does He not do."

What do you think about this response ie what God does and what he does not do?

I've already told you what I think of that response. It's confirmation of you moving the goal posts.

Show me how the scripture i supplied differs from many other Christians?

I believ the word of God is correct? Why should i not? What have you got to offer me?



To demonstrate what He did or did not do, i show examples of it from the Scripture. What do you think here?

As do other Christians with views that differ from yours. Growing weary of the theology debate. If you want to know how Christians who accept evolution align it with Christianity...ask them.

In the beginning was the world. What has evolution got to do with then?

Evolution did not exist at the beginning of the world. Evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of the world. It doesn't even have anything to do with the beginning of life.

It has to do with how life changes, once it was already here.

Evolution theorizes that life changes over time through Common descent, genetic mutation and variations in the gene pool.

Are you suggesting that the world was created but evolution is only restricted to life on earth and nothing outside of it?

Yes. Evolution only deals with how life changes...on Earth. That's it. Not how life began, not how Earth began, not how the universe began.



Have to cut it off for now, will get to more later. But please do answer the question in bold above.

 

[Speedwell]

Hey hey brother. I like you and hope all is well. Stay strong in the Lord and endure till the end.

So if its not important to you that its true - it being a supposition - why did ypi change your info to other religion due to creationism?

Because of the persistent hostility shown by creationists towards other Christians who don't require the literal inerrancy of Genesis. I find it is better if I don't get in your faces right away.

Well if its only that, why does it matter to you, that you should agree with it?

If its only that, why are you focused on it and debating for its acceptance?

Why do you defend it?

If its not beneficial and important to you, what value is it to you?

I don't defend it as such. But creationists systematically misrepresent the theory of evolution and are hostile to other Christians who accept it. That gives creationists Christians a bad reputation which is not good for Christianity in the long run.

You have an opinion. You have that opinion because it is the right opinion. If it was wrong you wouldnt have it, therefore being right is beneficial to being wrong is it not?

Being correct in your opinion is important to you, is it not?

My opinion is that creationists are dishonest.

It is believed because there is no other alternative. Either life is due to intelligent design or through0 a process that denies the Artist his signature.

That is false, and I think you know that it is false. Evolution does not "deny the Artist his signature."

I put my trust in God, you put your trust in the wisdom of men which is foolish to God but you are lucky. All we have to do is accept Christ as salvation, a belief in evolution is trivial to salvation.

So what is the real reason you oppose it?

 

[Yttrium]

What moral lesson are we to learn here?

You don't think there are any moral lessons in Genesis? That's odd. The Christians I know personally seem to think that there are strong moral lessons there. But since I'm not Christian myself, I don't really feel qualified to argue the matter.

Genesis is the inspired word of God written down by Men. What you think about my reply?

How is Genesis a fanciful tale and why should i listen to you?

It was just one of three possible conclusions I came to given your premise of a God that doesn't lie. If Genesis isn't the word of God, then God didn't lie in it, right? But you needn't take that idea seriously, since, as you helpfully pointed out, it conflicts with your beliefs.

What particular interpretation do i have?

Funny you should mention that. Again. You know, it's kinda silly to ask for a detailed explanation of how evolution could work with the God of Abraham, when you apparently only allow for one specific interpretation of what the God of Abraham is all about, and you won't let anyone know what that interpretation is. A whole lot of Christians, Muslims and Jews don't have a problem with evolution, even though they believe in the God of Abraham, since they don't take Genesis all that literally (using the metaphor option). So I tend to assume that you take a literal interpretation of Genesis. If you don't, be sure to let us know, 'kay?

Hey brother Speedwell and brother loveofourlord. Yttrium suggests theistic evolution is improbable.

Now, now, don't jump the gun there. Theistic evolution is quite probable if God exists and cares about humans. It's when you go putting tight constraints on what God actually did that things get improbable. If you go strictly by a Genesis account in the manner that God created humans, plants, and animals, then it just doesn't work with biologic evolution no matter how you look at it. But if you're not so strict, it's not so much of a problem.

So why/how can i trust that evolution is a change in frequency of alleles in a population over time?

It's kinda the definition of biologic evolution. I stole it out of some biology textbook some time back. You could look it up yourself just to keep me honest on that.

Is it possible that an allpowerful God exists

Well, of course.

 

[the iconoclast]

You speak as though there is only one concept of the Christian god. This is incorrect. There are many. Evolution is compatible with some, and not with others. Therefore, in order to answer your question, as I have, all I need to do is show that at least one of them is compatible.

If god can do anything he wants, as many Christians claim, then evolution is, by definition, compatible. Since evolution is necessarily included within "anything."



No, I suggest many, even most, Christians suggest he can do anything. Clearly, if I don't believe he exists, I would not suggest he can do some thing at all.



This is why I specifically asked you if you believe he can do anything he wants. It is entirely up to YOUR concept of god. If you believe that he can, then it is obviously true that he can be compatible with evolution. It's your concept, not mine. He can do anything you want him to do in the same way Harry Potter can do anything that Rowling wants him to do.

In other words, if you define your concept of god to exclude the possibility of evolution, THEN THERE IS NOTHING that can make evolution compatible. It simply defies your definition.

But that wasn't what I was asking you. I was asking you what might make you alter your concept of god. What kind of new information might make you realize that you were wrong to exclude evolution in the first place? After all, god says that no man can really know him, right? you need the verse on that?





You said: "Your and my God CAN do anything He wants but the next question is what does He do and what does He not do."

In order to determine what he does and does not do, it requires an interpretation of what the Bible says.

Which is exactly why I knew what you were really asking...you want evidence that is consistent with YOUR concept of god, not THE concept of god.



I have read them. Many times. Even memorized some of them. Your manipulation was unnecessary.



You asked me after quoting the verses about god not lying;

"when we examine your bare requirements - is it possible that the God of Abraham created the world through evolution?"

Hypothetically, let's assume that evolution is absolutely true (don't complain, your entire line of questioning asks me to assume that god is true), and you were forced to accept it. Would you think that god lied, or would you question your own understanding of what god has done and said?





So? You don't think you could be fooled by a perfect liar?



Ok. Still not seeing any indication of how you would know that you weren't being lied to by a supreme being. I don't know about you, but I've been fooled by HUMAN lies. Pretty sure an all-powerful being could dupe me pretty easily. Don't you? If not, you think even more highly of yourself than I thought.



Yes, of course. Question is, how do you uncover the lie of an all-powerful god?



Again, I don't believe he exists. You really need to stop asking questions that assume such things. They really are worthless.

If you want to know if I think the god of the Bible COULD lie...yes, of course:

1. He can do whatever the authors want him to do.
2. Telling me that he won't lie doesn't mean much if you consider the possibility that he does lie, because
3. If he's real, and he lies, we can't know.



Not implying that at all. Merely asking you the question, if he does lie, how could you know?



Poor analogy. It misses the nuance of: if a liar says "I cannot lie" how do you know he is not lying?






I've already told you what I think of that response. It's confirmation of you moving the goal posts.





As do other Christians with views that differ from yours. Growing weary of the theology debate. If you want to know how Christians who accept evolution align it with Christianity...ask them.





Evolution did not exist at the beginning of the world. Evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of the world. It doesn't even have anything to do with the beginning of life.

It has to do with how life changes, once it was already here.





Yes. Evolution only deals with how life changes...on Earth. That's it. Not how life began, not how Earth began, not how the universe began.



Have to cut it off for now, will get to more later. But please do answer the question in bold above.

Hey hey my dear

Tell me when you tackle the whole thing. Ill wait as long as needed.

Cheers

 

[46AND2]

Hey hey my dear

Tell me when you tackle the whole thing. Ill wait as long as needed.

Cheers

Probably the weekend when I have the time to put into it.

 

[the iconoclast]

Probably the weekend when I have the time to put into it.

Dont disappoint me. Take 2 weekends if needed

 

[the iconoclast]

This may help: Pigeon Chess

Hey hey my dear

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Debating evolutionists is like playing chess with a grown adult who tells you the chess board came into existance by a random process.

The game developed over millions of years and changed from checkers into chess.
(Staff Edit)
Cheers

 

[Yttrium]

Debating evolutionists is like playing chess with a grown adult who tells you the chess board came into existance by a random process.

Pet peeve: You should say "naturalist" there, not "evolutionist".

 

[the iconoclast]

Pet peeve: You should say "naturalist" there, not "evolutionist".

Hey hey

Ill be responding to your previous reply soon but while you wait.

Why should i say?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Debating evolutionists is like playing chess with a grown adult who tells you the chess board came into existance by a random process.

The game developed over millions of years and changed from checkers into chess.
(Staff Edit)

A straw man and a misrepresentation; why am I not surprised?

 

[Yttrium]

Hey hey

Ill be responding to your previous reply soon but while you wait.

Why should i say?

Why should you say "naturalist" instead of "evolutionist" in that case? A naturalist believes in purely natural origins. An evolutionist (someone who believes that all life on Earth evolved from common origins) might not be a naturalist at all. There are plenty of religious evolutionists who believe that life was created by God, for example.

 

[SLP]

If you eliminate all other possibilities, you are left with a Creator. It is conceivable that life arose spontaneously. The chances of this happening are so remote as to classify it "impossible". The "infinite monkey" idea is silly as the universe is not infinite. Professor James Tour scientifically skewers the whole "
Origin of Life" industry, pointing out facts from the point of view of an extraordinary scientist. Check him out. He is a born again Christian, but he speaks as a scientist.

Chances? Impossible?

Please provide your mathematical equation, justifying each of your variables, justifying the values you used for each variable, etc.

You never did reply to this.

Weird - you are great at making unsupported proclamations.

But you suck at providing any reason for any one to take them seriously.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I am not interested in convincing evolutionists. Mostly nothing will change their minds. There are exceptions like David Gelernter. There is no mechanism that makes evolution workable. My hope is that the less informed will see that evolution is not 'fact" and that they should make up their own minds.

 

[Speedwell]

Billions of people believe as I do, including Christians, Deists, Muslims, and Jews.

And many others, including Christians, Deists Muslims and Jews, understand that evolution is entirely consistent with the idea of a creator. The existence of a creator God is not an alternative to evolution, it's a separate question altogether.

 

[pitabread]

My hope is that the less informed will see that evolution is not 'fact" and that they should make up their own minds.

"Less informed" huh. That doesn't exactly speak well of you if you are admittedly targeting people based on their ignorance.

Then again, that is the modus operandi for modern creationism. And if studies are anything to go by, the less one knows about science and evolution, the easier it is to be a creationist.

 

[loveofourlord]

I am not interested in convincing evolutionists. Mostly nothing will change their minds. There are exceptions like David Gelernter. There is no mechanism that makes evolution workable. My hope is that the less informed will see that evolution is not 'fact" and that they should make up their own minds.

you keep repeating that lie of no mechanism, when it's literally part of the theory really doesn't help your arguments when you have to lie repeatedly. you may disagree with it you can't say it has no mechanism.

 

[pitabread]

you keep repeating that lie of no mechanism, when it's literally part of the theory really doesn't help your arguments when you have to lie repeatedly. you may disagree with it you can't say it has no mechanism.

This is what I find so bizarre about anti-evolution claims that rely on basic reality denial. Claiming there is "no mechanism" that makes evolution workable is just weird when there are clearly numerous evolutionary mechanisms; even weirder when those mechanisms are directly observable.

 

[loveofourlord]

This is what I find so bizarre about anti-evolution claims that rely on basic reality denial. Claiming there is "no mechanism" that makes evolution workable is just weird when there are clearly numerous evolutionary mechanisms; even weirder when those mechanisms are directly observable.

True, but at the very least it would be workable mechanisms, they sure love to pretend that mutations/natural selection and such don't exist.

 

[Jimmy D]

I am not interested in convincing evolutionists. Mostly nothing will change their minds. There are exceptions like David Gelernter.

David Gelernter is a computer scientist, not a biologist, and judging by a youtube discussion I had the misfortune of watching, he should stick to computers.