Infinite monkey theorem vs first life

[Kenny'sID]

What post? I wasn't quoting any of your posts, just summarizing what appeared to me to be the theme of several of your posts. If my summary was incorrect, just say so.

Are you still not understanding the partial post was the problem.

 

[46AND2]

MY silly games? I'm sorry but it's starting to appear you are only angry because you were wrong..that's not something I can help so please don't take it out on me. But to avoid such problems in the future, I would suggest you read things more carefully before you do this to yourself again.

I did respond, now could you please answer the request in the last paragraph of post 265? You know, the one you "avoided" and have been trying to pretty up ever since by attempting to make me the problem here?

Do you now understand how you were wrong and why? Again, if not, I'll be happy to answer any questions.

I did respond...in post 266. I said "fine" in acquiescence, and then proceeded to ask a question affirming your stance.

Why would I be angry? You seem to be the one with the petulant, vindictive attitude.

I'm actually laughing because you have now confirmed that you really did mean that the money being missing is evidence that it was" taken," as an analogy for missing fossils. Which contradicts your earlier statement that they were never there, and actually suits our position much better. It really is quite amusing.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I did respond...in post 266. I said "fine" in acquiescence, and then proceeded to ask a question affirming your stance.

Irrelevant, and I was clear with the question.

Why would I be angry?

I already told you.

I'm actually laughing because you have now confirmed that you really did mean that the money being missing is evidence that it was taken as an analogy for missing fossils

Had nothing to so with fossils, but it was to understand the "missing" concept that I should never have had to explain in the first place, but there were some contrary posters here because who couldn't stand the fact those missing fossils do actually fly in the face of evolution so I had to make it clear to them.

 

[Jimmy D]

Are you on drugs or something? Do you maybe need to be on drugs?

I didn't only post part of it, I posted the entire thing. All of it. The whole thing. Then I posted it again because you didn't see it the first time, somehow. Then I high-lighted and addressed the problematic parts of it, namely the claims about there needing to be billions of fossils if evolution is true, which is a topic you seem to have abandoned altogether. To argue about being misquoted when you have repeatedly been quoted in your entirety.

Don’t sweat it, everyone can see what’s going on. It’s par for the course with Kenny.

 

[Speedwell]

Irrelevant, and I was clear with the question.



I already told you.



Had nothing to so with fossils, but it was to understand the "missing" concept that I should never have had to explain in the first place, but there were some contrary posters here because who couldn't stand the fact those missing fossils do actually fly in the face of evolution so I had to make it clear to them.

How do we know that they fly in the face of evolution if they are missing and we can't examine them?

 

[46AND2]

Had nothing to so with fossils, but it was to understand the "missing" concept that I should never have had to explain in the first place

What? That makes no sense. It has nothing to do with fossils, but is an explanation for the "missing concept" you used with fossils?

 

[Aussie Pete]

you will notice that for most of our body were bilateral, same on the left and on the right, so you wouldn't need to magickaly have two eyes show up, they would show up as a result of the bilateral plan of the body which shows up early within the fossil record.

Sexes would have happened early on and probably near the start of being multi cellular, we don't know the exact method, but we do know that some simple organisms have complex lives and change as they grow older.

And do get a education in the eye, it's well known and well documented within the animal kingdom how a eye formed, because we see it IN the animal kingdom, all stages of the eyes evolution still exist out there now, we don't even need the fossils for that, try something that isn't so blatantly known.

as for immune system, this again would have formed early on, as fish have the immune system, but it's not super needed early on in our evolutionary history, as jellyfish and other simple organisms don't need it, and remember the things we need the immune system for evolved with us. heck one of the initial reasons for multicelluar forms is a immune system defense against bacteria and other protozoa, as they become too big to be eaten or attacked, along with other simular forms. And being from protozoa early multicellular would have just had themselves be the defense, over time as they got more complicated better defenses would form.

Remember bacteria and living things is a arms race, we evolve to try to combat certain types of diseases, while they evolve to better attack us, bacteria have so many complicated and nasty ways to kill us now, because we've had billions of years to defend against them, back then it likly wouldn't have been so complicated.

"Body plan"? This is evolution, totally random, how can there be a plan? My mother hated the "body plan". She often wanted an extra pair of hands. Evolution stuck humans with one pair. How rude. I still don't see how a creature without an immune system could survive until one evolved. And I reject absolutely the logic that evolutionists use with respect to the eye, and to the mammalian ear for that matter. it makes no sense. Trilobite? Extinct ancient creature? A highly sophisticated compound eye. Evolved? No. Created. Yes.

 

[Shemjaza]

"Body plan"? This is evolution, totally random, how can there be a plan? My mother hated the "body plan". She often wanted an extra pair of hands. Evolution stuck humans with one pair. How rude. I still don't see how a creature without an immune system could survive until one evolved. And I reject absolutely the logic that evolutionists use with respect to the eye, and to the mammalian ear for that matter. it makes no sense. Trilobite? Extinct ancient creature? A highly sophisticated compound eye. Evolved? No. Created. Yes.

Body plan not in the sense that it was planned out in advance, but the general pattern that is formed by genes.

With mutations and random changes repeat patterns and symmetry are possible. It's not like every creature starts from scratch. Each species is a variation on the one before it.

 

[loveofourlord]

"Body plan"? This is evolution, totally random, how can there be a plan? My mother hated the "body plan". She often wanted an extra pair of hands. Evolution stuck humans with one pair. How rude. I still don't see how a creature without an immune system could survive until one evolved. And I reject absolutely the logic that evolutionists use with respect to the eye, and to the mammalian ear for that matter. it makes no sense. Trilobite? Extinct ancient creature? A highly sophisticated compound eye. Evolved? No. Created. Yes.

Again jellyfish and other simple multicelluar creatures don't have immune systems, guess they don't exist huh? Oh and creatures designed to do harm to single celled doesn't nescarily make them as effective at multicelluar right away, there would be a time period where the arms race was just starting out giving time for the immune system to evolve, heck, we know that colony cells start to specialize when they go multicelluar, so some of them might specialize near the start at attacking foreign cells, how do you think singl celled colonies combat other predatory bacteria and protozoa.

As for body plan, as shemjaza pointed out, body plan just refers to the shape and the structures. The body plan of a amphibian has most of the same body parts we do, your not adding new things just modifying what is there already.

 

[pitabread]

"Body plan"? This is evolution, totally random, how can there be a plan? My mother hated the "body plan". She often wanted an extra pair of hands. Evolution stuck humans with one pair. How rude. I still don't see how a creature without an immune system could survive until one evolved. And I reject absolutely the logic that evolutionists use with respect to the eye, and to the mammalian ear for that matter. it makes no sense. Trilobite? Extinct ancient creature? A highly sophisticated compound eye. Evolved? No. Created. Yes.

More incredulity based on misunderstanding...

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Trilobite? Extinct ancient creature? A highly sophisticated compound eye. Evolved? No. Created. Yes.

This puzzles me - maybe you can explain the reasoning: why? why would a god create a creature whose only future was to go extinct and leave a few fossilised remains?

Or maybe you mean that it was the fossils that were created and the creature never really existed...

But in either case, why? Why create creatures (or fossils) that might never be found, but if they were found would fit neatly into an evolutionary sequence in rocks of a period which nicely fits that sequence - almost as if we're meant to believe it evolved?

Why?

[waiting for GWIMW...]

 

[loveofourlord]

This puzzles me - maybe you can explain the reasoning: why? why would a god create a creature whose only future was to go extinct and leave a few fossilised remains?

Or maybe you mean that it was the fossils that were created and the creature never really existed...

But in either case, why? Why create creatures (or fossils) that might never be found, but if they were found would fit neatly into an evolutionary sequence in rocks of a period which nicely fits that sequence - almost as if we're meant to believe it evolved?

Why?

[waiting for GWIMW...]

kinda reminds me of the creationists that say dinosaurs were on the ark, just majority of them died afterwards other then the few pterasaurs and brontosaurus's and such that are still around in remote areas, though some how have a big enough breeding population that is invisible to people going there heh.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Again jellyfish and other simple multicelluar creatures don't have immune systems, guess they don't exist huh? Oh and creatures designed to do harm to single celled doesn't nescarily make them as effective at multicelluar right away, there would be a time period where the arms race was just starting out giving time for the immune system to evolve, heck, we know that colony cells start to specialize when they go multicelluar, so some of them might specialize near the start at attacking foreign cells, how do you think singl celled colonies combat other predatory bacteria and protozoa.

As for body plan, as shemjaza pointed out, body plan just refers to the shape and the structures. The body plan of a amphibian has most of the same body parts we do, your not adding new things just modifying what is there already.

There is no plausible reason why "body plans" should be so similar. Why not an ape with four arms? Wyh not people with four or five eyes? You still don't tell my why an immune system would evolve before it knew that it needed one. In your world, all we would have is single celled or simple multicellular organisms. Everything else would succumb to an infection. The complexity of an immune system defies any explanation that evolution can answer, just like the vast majority of the amazing systems that make up life. Do you know how incredibly complex a single cell is? It is impossible for it to just be a mixture of proteins, lipids, amino acids and such. You can create something like it in a lab. Professor Tour will do that for you, presumably for a fee. What will spark a chemical cocktail into life? Miller theorised that lightning might have been the cause. I know how destructive lightning is. It is the last thing you want if you are trying to create life. There is no plausible mechanism apart from, "In the beginning, God created....."

 

[Aussie Pete]

This puzzles me - maybe you can explain the reasoning: why? why would a god create a creature whose only future was to go extinct and leave a few fossilised remains?

Or maybe you mean that it was the fossils that were created and the creature never really existed...

But in either case, why? Why create creatures (or fossils) that might never be found, but if they were found would fit neatly into an evolutionary sequence in rocks of a period which nicely fits that sequence - almost as if we're meant to believe it evolved?

Why?

[waiting for GWIMW...]

If I knew all the answers to everything, I would be God. Be glad that I am not. I'd have scrapped everything and started again.

 

[loveofourlord]

There is no plausible reason why "body plans" should be so similar. Why not an ape with four arms? Wyh not people with four or five eyes? You still don't tell my why an immune system would evolve before it knew that it needed one. In your world, all we would have is single celled or simple multicellular organisms. Everything else would succumb to an infection. The complexity of an immune system defies any explanation that evolution can answer, just like the vast majority of the amazing systems that make up life. Do you know how incredibly complex a single cell is? It is impossible for it to just be a mixture of proteins, lipids, amino acids and such. You can create something like it in a lab. Professor Tour will do that for you, presumably for a fee. What will spark a chemical cocktail into life? Miller theorised that lightning might have been the cause. I know how destructive lightning is. It is the last thing you want if you are trying to create life. There is no plausible mechanism apart from, "In the beginning, God created....."

....arn't you arguing for creationism? That opening argument is more a argument against creationism and why would god use a body plan to the point of replicating errors, and genes that a species doesn't use, but make sense if evolution.

Evolution can only work with what is already there, it can't make four arms, because the fish that we evolved from didn't have six limbs, and the way that DNA works gene duplication wouldn't form six perfectly working limbs to go that way. it's why the giraffe neck nerve goes so far to the point of being stupid, because the nerve's path on a fish is only a few inches, but due to how the body of a giraffe is, it has to travel a half dozen feet, just to go a few inches. Why would god use such a bad plan if he's making all these animals as they are.

As for single celled organisms, likley before they were actual living creatures they were gaining changes, there are some ideas that early lipid cells might benefit from the various proteins that the RNA form, making them survive better over time these things would gain benefits to make them living. There is no reason that the first cells were living, your assuming that step 1 is living things, when it's as likly step 500000 was living things and there were steps before that.

As for the immune system again is something we know a fair bit about, animals existing to this day have very complex, to very minor, to non existant, your claim seems to be that jellyfish shouldn't exist due to their not having a real immune system. Or certain fish whose immune systems are far more pimitive compared to our own.

 

[46AND2]

.... What will spark a chemical cocktail into life? Miller theorised that lightning might have been the cause. I know how destructive lightning is. It is the last thing you want if you are trying to create life. There is no plausible mechanism apart from, "In the beginning, God created....."

I have already offered to concede, for the sake of argument, that life STARTED with god. I then asked how that affects the way life changes (evolution) from there.

Please do not conflate abiogenesis with evolution until you address that question.

 

[Aussie Pete]

....arn't you arguing for creationism? That opening argument is more a argument against creationism and why would god use a body plan to the point of replicating errors, and genes that a species doesn't use, but make sense if evolution.

Evolution can only work with what is already there, it can't make four arms, because the fish that we evolved from didn't have six limbs, and the way that DNA works gene duplication wouldn't form six perfectly working limbs to go that way. it's why the giraffe neck nerve goes so far to the point of being stupid, because the nerve's path on a fish is only a few inches, but due to how the body of a giraffe is, it has to travel a half dozen feet, just to go a few inches. Why would god use such a bad plan if he's making all these animals as they are.

As for single celled organisms, likley before they were actual living creatures they were gaining changes, there are some ideas that early lipid cells might benefit from the various proteins that the RNA form, making them survive better over time these things would gain benefits to make them living. There is no reason that the first cells were living, your assuming that step 1 is living things, when it's as likly step 500000 was living things and there were steps before that.

As for the immune system again is something we know a fair bit about, animals existing to this day have very complex, to very minor, to non existant, your claim seems to be that jellyfish shouldn't exist due to their not having a real immune system. Or certain fish whose immune systems are far more pimitive compared to our own.

Now you are trying to tell me that an inanimate object can evolve? I'll go check my rockery. Maybe it's become a rock melon while I was not looking.

 

[Aussie Pete]

....arn't you arguing for creationism? That opening argument is more a argument against creationism and why would god use a body plan to the point of replicating errors, and genes that a species doesn't use, but make sense if evolution.

Evolution can only work with what is already there, it can't make four arms, because the fish that we evolved from didn't have six limbs, and the way that DNA works gene duplication wouldn't form six perfectly working limbs to go that way. it's why the giraffe neck nerve goes so far to the point of being stupid, because the nerve's path on a fish is only a few inches, but due to how the body of a giraffe is, it has to travel a half dozen feet, just to go a few inches. Why would god use such a bad plan if he's making all these animals as they are.

As for single celled organisms, likley before they were actual living creatures they were gaining changes, there are some ideas that early lipid cells might benefit from the various proteins that the RNA form, making them survive better over time these things would gain benefits to make them living. There is no reason that the first cells were living, your assuming that step 1 is living things, when it's as likly step 500000 was living things and there were steps before that.

As for the immune system again is something we know a fair bit about, animals existing to this day have very complex, to very minor, to non existant, your claim seems to be that jellyfish shouldn't exist due to their not having a real immune system. Or certain fish whose immune systems are far more pimitive compared to our own.

Perhaps you could read my comment again. How can a creature develop an immune system if it does not know what a threat is. By the time it knows (a great stretch to imagine a sentient blob, I know) that it needs an immune system, it is dead. Oh, I suppose that it can evolve while it is dead, if you stick with your logic.

 

[Speedwell]

Perhaps you could read my comment again. How can a creature develop an immune system if it does not know what a threat is. By the time it knows (a great stretch to imagine a sentient blob, I know) that it needs an immune system, it is dead. Oh, I suppose that it can evolve while it is dead, if you stick with your logic.

In a way, you are right. In a time of single-cell life forms, a species which did not develop defense mechanisms against other single-cell life forms would be dead. Our present complex immune systems are the result of a multi-million year arms race.

 

[loveofourlord]

Now you are trying to tell me that an inanimate object can evolve? I'll go check my rockery. Maybe it's become a rock melon while I was not looking.

rocks? What are you talking about, if you refer to lipids, this is something that actually happens, they form circular cell like patterns naturally due to the way they connect, if something else mind saying what you mean?