Infinite? Eternal - Eternally - Always - Forever (& Ever)

You don't get it though Alive Again.

'Eternal' means temporary only when talking about punishments.
When talking about rewards 'eternal' means permanent.

Eternal life is forever but eternal punishment is temporary. Nothing is inconsistent which is expedient.

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Well for the moment it has seemingly been determined that "for ever" in terms of punishment is the same "for ever" when looking at God's attributes. We know those are not temporary.

If you (we pray you won't of course!) faced the punishment of forever and were told that it had these attributes: the blackness and darkness being forever, the smoke of the torment ascending forever, the mist of darkness forever, being tormented night and day forever, and a process of destruction being forever, and you weren't to sure what "forever" really meant and needed an example to be sure, you'd find right off the top that:

God and Lamb being worshipped and living forever (and ever), & Jesus always being the same, kind of forever, I would be pretty concerned about the punishment.


God's Eternal Name & Attributes

...Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever. <G165>Rev 5:13-14
...and worshipped Him that liveth for <G519> ever <G165>and ever <G165>Rev 5:13-14
...Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for <G1519>ever. <G165>Heb 13:8
...Him that sat on the throne, who liveth for <G1519> ever <G165> and ever <G165>Rev 4:9-11
...worship him that liveth for<G1519> ever<G165> and ever<G165>Rev 4:9-11
...Him that liveth for <G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>Rev 10:6
...God, who liveth for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 15:7

Destruction (Forever)

...the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for <G1519>ever <G165>and ever<G165>Rev 14:11
...her smoke rose up for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 19:3
...the mist of darkness is reserved for<G1519> ever <G165>.”2 Peter 2:17
...reserved the blackness of darkness for<G1519> ever <G165>."Jude 1:13
...shall be tormented day and night for<G1519> ever <G165>and ever<G165>."Rev 20:10
...God shall likewise destroy thee for ever<H5331>,...and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah." Psalms 52:4-5

Sometimes I don't get it!

I'll be looking at more terms and many examples of their usage. The forever thing is pretty weighty and if we use God as the example, it's hard to imagine that being an improper example.

I think starting with God as the example is POINT A. If you start somewhere like POINT D, it's easier to get away with throwing something else in. I'll endeavor to be fair. We just don't have too many other scriptures that talk about the "implied" finality of what's going to happen to the devil and Hell. We have a lot that talk about God, His word, and His kingdom, and so far, it's hard not to draw a conclusion.

On another thread you make mention of "666 denominations" and take stabs at Orthodoxy like it is something we should apologize for. The entire state of the church is not deceived. That's the whole thing the cults miss. They believe it IS completely deceived. To be honest, it tends to put Universalism into a very similar status. They point to the errors of "religion" as confirmation of this. Meanwhile, the gates of Hell have not preveailed over the church (the ones obeying the dictates of the Head). They may not agree with all doctrine, but certainly who God is and what is at stake.

We have people seeing Hell and Jesus taking them to both Heaven and Hell and telling them to warn the church that it is real and it is eternal. It's important to grasp this because your penalty for missing Heaven is greater than what some people believe it to be. These testimonies have a powerful witness from the Lord.

Next to that we have claims that the whole church is deceived and although I've missed it countless times (literally). I strongly believe these are points the Holy Spirit has stressed and confirmed. If we then go and doubt the whole validity of the Bible as it is translated (another big cult tactic), then we don't really know what truth is at all anymore, because someone's always claiming to know the Greek and Hebrew better.

The Trinity has been so emphatically demonstrated, both scripturally and spoke of by God Himself many times, that you have to ignore over a hundred scriptures, of which any number of them thoroughly refute any contradiction because there only is one God.

You won't find any apologies being made for being "Orthodox" and translate that word and see why it's called that. We'll continue to look at the words, these should support not detract from the claim because the Word is truth and I'm not "brainwashed" (just renewed).

So if you agree that the same Greek words are used in the two big areas I've addressed (God Himself and punishment for missing Him), then even if you want to change the meaning of those same words, realize that you're changing who God is, the duration of His kingdom, etc. in order to make that claim. I personally see that as a huge stretch, but we'll let the scriptures speak for themselves as this is being presented.

I deliberately started with God and His attributes so we'd all know what forever really was without any controversy. I didn't write the Bible, but we have the words. Rather than being upset about it, just consider what is presented, without taking a swipe at the entire orthodox church (which of itself doesn't sway anyone).

Originally Posted by Alive_Again

Yes, I did. And then you write a page long reason for why that statement is so true. I'm not sure what you expect me to say. If it hurt that bad, maybe you should just do the Christian thing, and forgive me.

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You're missing the point. It doesn't hurt because I'm dead to it. If my flesh were hanging out, yes it would sting, no doubt. I know God's in the church and if He wanted me somewhere else, I would have left long ago (with no regrets).

The whole, "BTW, did you notice you used the term 666 when commenting about denominations?" That apparently means that you think all that the Holy Spirit has been doing in power down here is not even of God. It is so obvious, it does not bear comment. I'm not going to get into strife about it.

So if you don't want to believe that the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is really a person with feelings, a voice, etc.(and is God!), that is your choice. How did you go about prophesying without hearing a voice? You know people have voices. The voice you would have had to of heard came from a being with emotions and a will.

I'm not going to argue those things with you, because here in Orthodoxy you have no argument. You also are not searching for truth, so you won't have an ear. Back to the point of the thread. If you can get over being offended about how the thread started off locating the Greek and using God as the primary example of never ending, and just consider what is presented, you might find conclusive evidence that just as God is eternal (not living in just an "age"), and we'll apply those same words to punishment (They are the same words!). A court of law would accept this evidence as conclusive and we'll "entertain" "alternative thoughts", but we'll also present them alongside the (seemingly) very conclusive evidence and not just accept "alternative" thoughts as being the gospel.

Whatever you change the duration of the punishment for, you change the nature of God and the duration of His kingdom for. It has to work both ways because they are the same words.

It's hard to say without offending you, I'm quite sure, but that is not my intent. My intent is to present instances (with the Greek and Hebrew) in the Bible representing God's kingdom, God Himself, and the duration of punishment in scripture without any apologies. Let the chips fall where they may because when the light shines, all that shows is truth. The ones who are distressed are the ones hiding in the dark. (Let's leave those creatures where they are) and just consider the Word. Anyone presenting wisdom from above should be easily entreated about this.

We'll get around to the well known objections.

I want to add, we've had one Universalist who came quite civilly. I was glad he came along. I'm sure somewhere along the line some points will be suggested. For you to come in though and make slights to Orthodoxy and then to "congratulate' another for leaving in "pursuit of the truth" is very out of order. As you say, I'll "forgive" you for doing it, but at least play by the rules. Your arguments carry a little more weight if you are seen to be searching.

I would like to think that I am always searching. I didn't know what to expect when I started this thread as far as finding the same words. I knew on the inside though that what the Holy Spirit has said would be evidenced in the Word.I've heard some wonderful prophesies that really ministered to me over the years, and I won't impose them as scripture. You just have to bear witness to it (or not). You have the love of God pouring out within it. It's very compelling. I regularly submit truth I've heard and have had reconfirmed over the years to the Lord to confirm again because I don't want to be one of "those" Christians who make a fool of themselves in the Spirit realm. I already done this many times. As you grow you realize that you played the "brute" and that got old. I check in a lot and I don't want to stray.

Poor discernment, I never said He wasn't.

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The "discernment" issue is not so much whether or not my assessments are entirely accurate, but more importantly that the words reflect the spirit of discontent by which you speak. The Lord does not afford us any room to speak of denominations as such (666). This offends those in them, and as you say, God is moving in them. I'm glad you can see that, but just as I can't talk about Universalists (666). See what I mean?

I just consider, as MANY do, a 'denomination' to be a tombstone to the last move of God in the Spirit.

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You are in denial of any sickness in the institutional church of today.

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I understand full well that the church is in need of renewal. The Lord told me not to judge His church, so it is up to me to pray about it, not really focus on it. Be thankful that He is here and answers prayer.

..."Quit fighting so much you are an embarrassment to the Spirit of unity which I prayed for my church to have."

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That is my desire too. Why don't we agree not to speak of the church negatively and not address doctrinal differences here?

Since I really just want to present the verses and look at the Greek and Hebrew Words (not just in cherry picked, isolated instances that support a doctrinal inclination), I want the evidence to conclusively show what it will.

It is the enemy that has something at stake in the matter. He would use any manner of offense to keep from losing his stake in those who are convinced in a way that does not agree with the Word.

I would ask that without any condescension by anyone who is content to remain where they are on this subject, that we just stay focused on the presentation of the Word. There is little point in complaining about the King James Version or Nicea, or whatever the usual culprits to implied deception.

I'm not looking to "win" an argument. I'm looking for the truth and I am willing to lay aside arguments and the approval of man to reach that place.

This should actually be fun and the enemy is the only one with something to lose. The only ones offended by me not wanting to take isolated passages and build doctrines on them, are the ones that do! Instead, their should be consistency in the Word. At the end, we can look at the objections certain "groups" have and see if what they maintain resembles the truth.

I'd rather put agape love back into this too because the Holy Spirit abides there.

But as I've said before, this topic is really not even supposed to be in this forum. I personally feel that honoring the 'rules' here at CF would be for this to be moved to UNORTHODOX to avoid any moderator rebukes.

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Not a chance. You can start one over there if you wish. You can avoid any moderator rebukes by not making comments such as you have in the Orthodox section...

I've had these discussions before with you. It usually indicts the church overall negatively (in this case not shying to even use 666 as an association). It ventures into how the Word is not translated properly because they (and those who believe them without question) are "indoctrinated" into a commonly accepted demonic deception. You inject a benevolent comment about fellowshipping in orthodox churches. Your pointing out its "errors" are a fulfillment of scripture and a commission from God. Before it's over Nicea is introduced and everything is suddenly supposed to be in doubt.

That is not what this thread is all about. It's about showing the scriptures (with the Greek and Hebrew), and comparing them to God's eternal attributes and final judgment. If the words are the same, they have to be the same. We'll look at more than just "for ever".

I said: "...to speak of denominations as such (666). This offends those in them,"

I don't think the Father is any more offended by this than when Jesus told the Jews (chosen people) they were "of their Father the devil." My opinion, I admit.

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But I believe that the 'true church' can and will turn back, once they see the error.

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That's all I am trying to get across by slapping it in the face with such a 'shocking' (but in my view, true) statement.

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I just consider, as MANY do, a 'denomination' to be a tombstone to the last move of God in the Spirit.

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You are in denial of any sickness in the institutional church of today.

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I said: "Why don't we agree not to speak of the church negatively and not address doctrinal differences here?"

You give me a scripture about judging the church. Your intent is very revealing. It has a good motive, but is profoundly misplaced. If you want to risk a venture into doing that, start a thread about it. (I'd pray first.)

It's very much like Paul announcing that the issue was over their being no resurrection of the dead, and then the real issue getting lost in the doctrinal uproar and confusion, with people taking sides.

I'm not offended and I have no desire to give offense. I do not wish to let the enemy grab the horns of this discussion by diverting it from it's original heading, and certainly not by casting it into a batch of a heretical mix in Unorthodox (no offense). You yourself know what a mixed bag it is over there, and for good reason. My sympathies, but after all, the orthodox church should not have to apologize for its views.

I welcomed the presence of one particular Universalist. This is not to get into doubtful doctrinal disputations. I fully expect after a review of the scriptures and claims, that counter suggestions might be made and those can be examined in the light of what has been demonstrated and further review done as needed. This would seem fair.

I would ask that if you'd like to consider what is presented and after it has been presented, feel free to make constructive comments that point in useful directions, and not throw a negative "light" on the church at large, or even the usefulness of this discussion in its current location.

You should do what He has told you...I agree, but you must also let others do what He has told them.

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So I shall continue, without giving offense, but remaining focused, and you must choose to abide by the rules of the forum in the manner that you participate. This should agree with what you say He told you.

People of other doctrinal "persuasions" must "win" people carefully through wisdom. If what they offer is true, then it will abide in the light. If not, then other things will manifest and be known.

Eternal<G165>"aion"

(Previously used in word study: translated as "for ever")

Noun (masculine)

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Used 128 times (KJV) &#8212; ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5

"Now unto the King eternal<G165>, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
1 Tim 1:17

"To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal<G165> purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:"
Eph 3:10-11


Eternal<G166>"Aoonios" (Adjective)

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Used 71 times (KJV) &#8212; eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal<G166> redemption for us."
Heb 9:12

"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal<G166> salvation unto all them that obey him;"
Heb 5:8-9

"But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal<G166> glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."
1 Peter 5:10

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal<G166> glory."
2 Tim 2:10

"As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal<G166>, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
John 17:2-3

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal<G166> Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
Heb 9:14

"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal<G166>life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us."
1 John 1:2

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life<G166> through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 6:23

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal<G166> inheritance."
Heb 9:15

"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal<G166> life."
John 6:68

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal<G166> life:"
Romans 2:7

"In hope of eternal<G166> life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"
Titus 1:2

"And I give unto them eternal<G166> life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
John 10:28

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal<G166> life?"
Matt 19:16

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal<G166> life?"
Mark 10:17

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal<G166> life?"
Luke 10:25

"And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal<G166> life?"
Luke 18:18

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting<G166>punishment: but the righteous into life eternal<G166>."
Matt 25:45-46

"But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal<G166> life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last first."
Mark 10:30-31

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal<G166> life."
John 3:15

"And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal<G166>: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together."
John 4:36

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal<G166> life: and they are they which testify of me."
John 5:39

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal<G166> life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:54

"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal<G166>."
John 12:25

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal<G166> life believed."
Acts 13:48

"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal<G166> life by Jesus Christ our Lord."
Romans 5:21

"For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal<G166> weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal<G166>."
2 Cor 4:17-18

"Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal<G166> life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."
1 Tim 6:12

"Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal<G166> life."
1 Tim 6:19

"That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal<G166> life."
Titus 3:7

"And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal<G166>life."
1 John 2:25

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal<G166> life abiding in him."
1 John 3:15

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal<G166> life, and this life is in his Son."
1 John 5:11

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal<G166> life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
1 John 5:13

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal<G166> life."
1 John 5:20

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal<G166> life."
Jude 1:21

Eternal Judgment, Fire, Damnation

"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal<G166> damnation<G2920>: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."
Mark 3:29-30

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting<G166> chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal<G166>fire."
Jude 1:6-7

"Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal<G166> judgment."
Heb 6:2

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting<G166>punishment: but the righteous into life eternal<G166>."
Matt 25:45-46


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Eternal (King, purpose)

Eternal<G165>"aion" (noun)

...unto the King eternal<G165>, immortal,...be honour and glory for ever and ever. 1 Tim 1:17
...the eternal<G165> purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:" Eph 3:10-11


Eternal (redemption, salvation, glory, Spirit, life)
Also "everlasting" (judgment, punishment, chains)


Eternal<G166>"Aoonios" (adjective)

...having obtained eternal<G166> redemption for us Heb 9:12
...he became the author of eternal<G166> salvation unto all them that obey him Heb 5:9
...who hath called us unto his eternal<G166> glory by Christ Jesus 1 Peter 5:10
...the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal<G166> glory 2 Tim 2:10
...this is life eternal<G166>, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ John 17:3
...who through the eternal<G166> Spirit offered himself without spot to God Heb 9:14
...that eternal<G166>life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us 1 John 1:2
...the gift of God is eternal life<G166> through Jesus Christ our Lord Romans 6:23
...they which are called might receive the promise of eternal<G166> inheritance Heb 9:15
...thou hast the words of eternal<G166> life John 6:68
...seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal<G166> life Romans 2:7
...In hope of eternal<G166> life Titus 1:2
...And I give unto them eternal<G166> life; and they shall never perish John 10:28
...that I may have eternal<G166> life? Matt 19:16
...but the righteous into life eternal<G166> Matt 25:46
...and in the world to come eternal<G166> life. Mark 10:30-31
...whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal<G166> life John 3:15
...gathereth fruit unto life eternal<G166> John 4:36
...for in them ye think ye have eternal<G166> life John 5:39
...eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal<G166> life John 6:54

...he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal<G166> John 12:25
...as many as were ordained to eternal<G166> life believed Acts 13:48
...grace reign through righteousness unto eternal<G166> life by Jesus Christ Romans 5:21
...worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal<G166> weight of glory 2 Cor 4:17
...but the things which are not seen are eternal<G166> 2 Cor 4:18
...lay hold on eternal<G166> life, whereunto thou art also called 1 Tim 6:12
...that they may lay hold on eternal<G166> lif" 1 Tim 6:19
...we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal<G166> life Titus 3:7
...the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal<G166>life 1 John 2:25
...no murderer hath eternal<G166> life abiding in him 1 John 3:15
..God hath given to us eternal<G166> life, and this life is in his Son 1 John 5:11
...that ye may know that ye have eternal<G166> life 1 John 5:13
...his is the true God, and eternal<G166> life 1 John 5:20
...the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal<G166> life Jude 1:21

Eternal Judgment, Fire, Damnation

...these shall go away into everlasting<G166>punishment Matt 25:46
...is in danger of eternal<G166> damnation<G2920> Mark 3:30
...he hath reserved in everlasting<G166> chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day Jude 1:6
...suffering the vengeance of eternal<G166>fire Jude 1:7
...and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal<G166> judgment Heb 6:2