Infant Baptism

Gregory95

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People were bringing their children, including infants, the disciples tried to stop them. Jesus told His disciples to not prohibit any of these children--including the infants--from being brought to Him.

There is no "separation" of children here. The text says what it says.

-CryptoLutheran

Also keep in mind what you point to in Luke is people bringing their young to the Word of God made flesh pre death resurrection and accention this is not baptism
Also
do you believe a person can only be baptized by the spirit if water is involved?
 
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JacksBratt

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If God says He acts through X, then we promote X. That doesn't mean God is limited to X. So we baptize our children because we know that God works through Baptism. It does not follow that, therefore, anyone who isn't baptized must be hopelessly lost and condemned forever.

See my earlier post about the problem of salvation legalism.

You want to frame the discussion as we baptize infants because if we don't then they will go to hell. But that isn't the argument being made. That we believe that God works through Baptism to save us--including children--does not mean that anyone who is unbaptized must, therefore, be hellbound. That simply isn't the way we think of salvation, we don't believe in these kinds of black and white, formulaic, and rigid ways of thinking and talking about salvation. Salvation isn't about formula, rigidity, or getting certain t's crossed and i's dotted; it's about God graciously and lovingly coming down to meet us, encounter us, through His means. Where God has promised to act, we confess in faith; where God has not spoken, we leave that up to His judgment and mercy. He's God, and we aren't; but He is faithful, true, and good, so He is trustworthy.

-CryptoLutheran
That is a lot to take in.

I to believe salvation is simple.. it is achieved by belief in Christ and that He died for my sins.

Thing is... some believe that baptism saves or is part of the necessary "formula" as you call it.

I don't believe that we need to do anything.. no dunking, no sprinkling, no going to church, no giving of money, no raising arms, no dressing in a suit or nice dress...

I believe, like you, there is no "formula". No rigidity or i's to dot ant t's to cross..

Just understanding and accepting that you are a sinner and you are going to die, spiritually due to these sins... believing Christ paid your price for you and asking Him for salvation... That's it..

IMO anyone who does this.. and then was to die.. is saved.

I believe baptism is a public profession of faith.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Also keep in mind what you point to in Luke is people bringing their young to the Word of God made flesh pre death resurrection and accention this is not baptism

But it does illustrate that Christ does not forbid children.

Also
do you believe a person can only be baptized by the spirit if water is involved?

Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a specific thing that happened, namely on Pentecost. In a secondary sense we also see it with the pouring out of the Spirit on the Gentiles at Cornelius' house.

Note that these two moments are the only occasions in Scripture identified with "Baptism with the Holy Spirit". Baptism with the Holy Spirit is never described as an individual, personal experience; it's never identified with conversion, and it's never identified with some "second blessing" in the Charismatic sense.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit was a specific, historic event when the Spirit was poured out on all flesh in fulfillment of what was spoken beforehand.

Baptism, that is Christian Baptism, is always with water. One can speak of baptisms by analogy, such as Baptism with the Holy Spirit, baptism with fire, Christ speaks of His Passion as a "baptism", St. Paul speaks of the Israelites experiencing a "baptism" in the wilderness. These are all expressions utilizing baptism as an analogy.

For example, one could figuratively speak of being "bathed in light", but nobody literally takes a bath in light. The word "bathed" is used figuratively. Likewise baptism similarly means "bathing" or "washing", it's the word used to convey the Jewish ritual practice of tevilah, or ritual bathing, which usually occurred in a mikveh, a ritual bath. Tevilah had numerous uses in Judaism, the most common was for ritual purification, priests had to be ritually purified before performing their priestly duties, one who had become ritually impure had to undergo tevilah as part of the purification process. Tevilah was also part of the conversion process to Judaism, a Gentile who desired to convert to Judaism. St. John the Baptist's ministry was a call to the Jewish people to repentance in anticipation for the coming of the Messiah, and used ritual washing as part of his prophetic ministry. It is out of this Jewish context that came Christian Baptism. It wasn't John's baptism, which was a "baptism of repentance" as already noted, but was a ritualized bathing that took upon a specifically Christian meaning. So Baptism as part of the rite of conversion has a direct Jewish antecedent, and has a specific Christian character, as Christ gave His Church the commission to make disciples by baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. This unique Christian Baptism is what Peter mentions in Acts 2:38, it's what Paul mentions in Romans 6, Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 12, and many other places.

This is the Jewish origin of the Christian Sacrament, which was instituted by Jesus Christ for the purpose of new birth and new identity as one of God's people, a people who have been marked and identified with His Son, Jesus, and His Messianic Kingdom as expressed through this people, this new Israel, He calls His Church.

Trying to separate Baptism from its specific meaning as given by Christ and understood and practiced by the Church since the beginning, and turn it into some esoteric thing is, among many things, a rather Platonic, if not Gnostic, thing to do. Esotericizing the exoteric and denying the significance of the ordinary, mundane, and earthy things of Christianity is a step away from the basic foundations of Christian faith and practice, and a step toward long since rejected heretical ideas.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Gregory95

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But it does illustrate that Christ does not forbid children.



Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a specific thing that happened, namely on Pentecost. In a secondary sense we also see it with the pouring out of the Spirit on the Gentiles at Cornelius' house.

Note that these two moments are the only occasions in Scripture identified with "Baptism with the Holy Spirit". Baptism with the Holy Spirit is never described as an individual, personal experience; it's never identified with conversion, and it's never identified with some "second blessing" in the Charismatic sense.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit was a specific, historic event when the Spirit was poured out on all flesh in fulfillment of what was spoken beforehand.

Baptism, that is Christian Baptism, is always with water. One can speak of baptisms by analogy, such as Baptism with the Holy Spirit, baptism with fire, Christ speaks of His Passion as a "baptism", St. Paul speaks of the Israelites experiencing a "baptism" in the wilderness. These are all expressions utilizing baptism as an analogy.

For example, one could figuratively speak of being "bathed in light", but nobody literally takes a bath in light. The word "bathed" is used figuratively. Likewise baptism similarly means "bathing" or "washing", it's the word used to convey the Jewish ritual practice of tevilah, or ritual bathing, which usually occurred in a mikveh, a ritual bath. Tevilah had numerous uses in Judaism, the most common was for ritual purification, priests had to be ritually purified before performing their priestly duties, one who had become ritually impure had to undergo tevilah as part of the purification process. Tevilah was also part of the conversion process to Judaism, a Gentile who desired to convert to Judaism. St. John the Baptist's ministry was a call to the Jewish people to repentance in anticipation for the coming of the Messiah, and used ritual washing as part of his prophetic ministry. It is out of this Jewish context that came Christian Baptism. It wasn't John's baptism, which was a "baptism of repentance" as already noted, but was a ritualized bathing that took upon a specifically Christian meaning. So Baptism as part of the rite of conversion has a direct Jewish antecedent, and has a specific Christian character, as Christ gave His Church the commission to make disciples by baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. This unique Christian Baptism is what Peter mentions in Acts 2:38, it's what Paul mentions in Romans 6, Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 12, and many other places.

This is the Jewish origin of the Christian Sacrament, which was instituted by Jesus Christ for the purpose of new birth and new identity as one of God's people, a people who have been marked and identified with His Son, Jesus, and His Messianic Kingdom as expressed through this people, this new Israel, He calls His Church.

Trying to separate Baptism from its specific meaning as given by Christ and understood and practiced by the Church since the beginning, and turn it into some esoteric thing is, among many things, a rather Platonic, if not Gnostic, thing to do. Esotericizing the exoteric and denying the significance of the ordinary, mundane, and earthy things of Christianity is a step away from the basic foundations of Christian faith and practice, and a step toward long since rejected heretical ideas.

-CryptoLutheran
So what do you think on being born again?
 
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Gregory95

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That is a lot to take in.

I to believe salvation is simple.. it is achieved by belief in Christ and that He died for my sins.

Thing is... some believe that baptism saves or is part of the necessary "formula" as you call it.

I don't believe that we need to do anything.. no dunking, no sprinkling, no going to church, no giving of money, no raising arms, no dressing in a suit or nice dress...

I believe, like you, there is no "formula". No rigidity or i's to dot ant t's to cross..

Just understanding and accepting that you are a sinner and you are going to die, spiritually due to these sins... believing Christ paid your price for you and asking Him for salvation... That's it..

IMO anyone who does this.. and then was to die.. is saved.

I believe baptism is a public profession of faith.
From my understanding when you are born again this is in sense your spiritual baptism as you let your old man die and are renewed in Christ day by day litteraly this is your landmark moment that changes everything

I've met so many who have been "baptized" from infants to young children none of them walk with God

i was raised in a non pro God house parents refused to read me the Bible as a kid i have NEVER been baptized by water yet read my testimony

The water part of it is a profession of faith and in my eyes how can one who don't even understand what they are profess faith then be baptized as seen in the NT
 
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Gregory95

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But it does illustrate that Christ does not forbid children.



Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a specific thing that happened, namely on Pentecost. In a secondary sense we also see it with the pouring out of the Spirit on the Gentiles at Cornelius' house.

Note that these two moments are the only occasions in Scripture identified with "Baptism with the Holy Spirit". Baptism with the Holy Spirit is never described as an individual, personal experience; it's never identified with conversion, and it's never identified with some "second blessing" in the Charismatic sense.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit was a specific, historic event when the Spirit was poured out on all flesh in fulfillment of what was spoken beforehand.

Baptism, that is Christian Baptism, is always with water. One can speak of baptisms by analogy, such as Baptism with the Holy Spirit, baptism with fire, Christ speaks of His Passion as a "baptism", St. Paul speaks of the Israelites experiencing a "baptism" in the wilderness. These are all expressions utilizing baptism as an analogy.

For example, one could figuratively speak of being "bathed in light", but nobody literally takes a bath in light. The word "bathed" is used figuratively. Likewise baptism similarly means "bathing" or "washing", it's the word used to convey the Jewish ritual practice of tevilah, or ritual bathing, which usually occurred in a mikveh, a ritual bath. Tevilah had numerous uses in Judaism, the most common was for ritual purification, priests had to be ritually purified before performing their priestly duties, one who had become ritually impure had to undergo tevilah as part of the purification process. Tevilah was also part of the conversion process to Judaism, a Gentile who desired to convert to Judaism. St. John the Baptist's ministry was a call to the Jewish people to repentance in anticipation for the coming of the Messiah, and used ritual washing as part of his prophetic ministry. It is out of this Jewish context that came Christian Baptism. It wasn't John's baptism, which was a "baptism of repentance" as already noted, but was a ritualized bathing that took upon a specifically Christian meaning. So Baptism as part of the rite of conversion has a direct Jewish antecedent, and has a specific Christian character, as Christ gave His Church the commission to make disciples by baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. This unique Christian Baptism is what Peter mentions in Acts 2:38, it's what Paul mentions in Romans 6, Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 12, and many other places.

This is the Jewish origin of the Christian Sacrament, which was instituted by Jesus Christ for the purpose of new birth and new identity as one of God's people, a people who have been marked and identified with His Son, Jesus, and His Messianic Kingdom as expressed through this people, this new Israel, He calls His Church.

Trying to separate Baptism from its specific meaning as given by Christ and understood and practiced by the Church since the beginning, and turn it into some esoteric thing is, among many things, a rather Platonic, if not Gnostic, thing to do. Esotericizing the exoteric and denying the significance of the ordinary, mundane, and earthy things of Christianity is a step away from the basic foundations of Christian faith and practice, and a step toward long since rejected heretical ideas.

-CryptoLutheran
I'm also very interested to hear your testimony

You are actually putting thought in your words so perhaps once we understand one another more we can solve this dilemma as we are to be one mind and not divided
 
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JacksBratt

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From my understanding when you are born again this is in sense your spiritual baptism as you let your old man die and are renewed in Christ day by day litteraly this is your landmark moment that changes everything

I've met so many who have been "baptized" from infants to young children none of them walk with God

i was raised in a non pro God house parents refused to read me the Bible as a kid i have NEVER been baptized by water yet read my testimony

The water part of it is a profession of faith and in my eyes how can one who don't even understand what they are profess faith then be baptized as seen in the NT
I agree.

Salvation is a conscious understanding of the fact that you are a sinner and then believing that Christ fixed that for you.

How can an infant, child or mentally challenged person grasp that concept?

How can a God that took on human form and died a terrible death out of love for His creation... knowing that many would reject Him... even think of condemning an innocent infant to a horrible eternal state..when it is helpless and totally dependent.. due to inaction of others who may be oblivious themselves or non believers?

My salvation is dependent on no other human. No other human depends on me for theirs.

No action, no ceremony, no service or kind act... on my part, is going to save me from Christ's judgement.

Only one thing... accepting that I need payment for my sins and that Christ is the one who paid it.

Like you said... Baptism is a public display of accepting Christ. A public display of my death as the person that I was, and a reemergence as a new person who strives to be like Christ.

Baptism is for the saved... not a process of being saved.

Infant baptism may help the parents sleep better.. however, the child will grow up and eventually make their own choice regardless.
 
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timothyu

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Is not infant baptism putting a stamp on the child, a symbolic gesture saying this kid is ours, (be it the churches or God's - sometimes the two get confused). Is there some mystical occurrence at the time? Doubtful, considering the Jews baptised themselves on a regular basis as the cleansing ritual. The gentile church always had a habit of keeping traditions but changing the Jewish meaning.

As for kids, Jesus said they would have no trouble understanding the Kingdom. It was the adults who would because they were so indoctrinated by man with other ideas and wishing to put their own slant on things, that the whole issue would become confused. Hence religion. Hence it's many denominations.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So what do you think on being born again?

It is our new birth from God by which we are given new identity in Jesus by the Spirit, whereby we are children of God and no longer strangers. This happens (ordinarily) in the Sacrament of Baptism, that is the reason it was instituted. It's why Christ says that we must be born "of water and the Spirit"; and it is here in Baptism that we find water and the Spirit together. So that all who are baptized have been born again, born anew, born of God as sons and daughters, "born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm also very interested to hear your testimony

You are actually putting thought in your words so perhaps once we understand one another more we can solve this dilemma as we are to be one mind and not divided

For the first eight years of my life my family was part of a non-denominational church, after we were kicked out of the church because of lies told by one of the elders of the church we ended up in a tiny Foursquare church that met at the local YMCA (which eventually merged with the Foursquare church the next town over). I spent most of my young life struggling and unsure of my salvation, having been raised to believe that my salvation depended on my coming to Jesus through personal decision and choice. My struggle was over how one could know if they "meant it" when they asked Jesus into their life. So no matter how many times I found myself begging for God to save me, I was always left feeling ultimately empty--since my salvation depended on my making Jesus my Savior, then knowing whether one was truly sincere was very important to me. After all, plenty of people could say the Sinner's Prayer or walk up to an altar call, say the right words, but end up walking away from Jesus (which, as I had been taught in my early life, meant they had never had faith in the first place). So a combination of Decision Theology and OSAS amounted to many years of despair, grief, and doubt. Though I never really expressed these things openly out of fear of others judging me.

In my late teens I was introduced by one of the more educated members of my church to the writings of the Church fathers. I was completely ignorant about the history of Christianity, but had a general interest in history, and so took the opportunity to start learning some of that history. Which led me to also begin talking to other Christians online in discussion forums. This exposed me to a larger range of ideas than I had ever been exposed to before. A couple of those early discussions made me realize that while I thought I knew the Bible, I didn't really know the Bible, I had never seriously studied the Scriptures, and had taken virtually all I had been told growing up for granted.

This combination of studying Scripture, exposing myself to a larger diversity of Christian beliefs, learning theology, and researching the history of Christianity ultimately resulted in me realizing that much of what I had been told to believe might not be true. I had already stopped attending the family church at that point, in part because my mom had passed away the summer between my Junior and Senior years of high school, my father had had to relocate to a new town for work, and I was without a car at the time.

I ended up in a period of wandering in the wilderness for a while, trying out a few churches here, a few churches there. But never finding a spiritual home.

A long story made slightly shorter, I never intended to become Lutheran; it happened basically by complete accident. Of all the different churches I was looking at, Lutheranism wasn't on the list. My "gateway drug" to Lutheranism was ultimately a small conversation I had online years ago now. A Lutheran explained since salvation is by the grace of God alone, then it really must be God's grace alone. My salvation didn't depend on me, it didn't depend on my efforts, it didn't depend on me saying, doing, thinking, feeling the right things; it didn't depend on me being "sincere" enough, it didn't depend on me making a decision, or any of that. It was simply this: Christ died for me.

My salvation was out of my hands and in God's hands, and He is far more faithful, far more merciful, far more excellent than I am. Infinitely so.

A couple other significant occasions involved me reading Martin Luther's account of his "tower experience", where he speaks of his struggle with Romans 1:17, and his epiphany that "the justice of God" here isn't that justice by which God condemns sinners, but the justice by which He makes sinners just. This was the spark which ignited the Reformation. Further, I saw a bit of myself in the historical Luther--the Luther who so desperately wanted to be accepted by God, but found himself nothing but a cold dead sinner; how could God who is holy and just ever accept a sinner who is not? How could one possibly ever know if they are saved? How could one not live in the utter terror and immense dread that they would, very likely, no matter how much they devoted themselves to Jesus, still be condemned to deepest darkest hell? It was a dread, a despair, a guilt that I was intimately familiar with.

That the good news is that salvation is God's work alone, and is not of ourselves, is truly good news.

The more I read Scripture and the more I familiarized myself with Lutheran theology, the more brilliant everything seemed to shine. It felt, in some ways, like I had finally come up for air after having held my breath under water for so long. What seemed so brilliant about the Lutheran treatment of the Bible was, ultimately, it was just letting the Bible be the Bible. Let Scripture say what it says. It's okay if Scripture says something and it doesn't make sense right now, let it say what it says. It's okay if there are paradoxes, it's okay if there are things unexplained, it's okay if there are things that aren't reasonable, it's okay if Scripture doesn't fit in my mind's box, it's okay if Scripture doesn't fit into my preconceptions. It's okay, just let Scripture say what it says. It's not about me figuring it all out, it's not about me making all the pieces fit nice together. If Scripture is messy, let it be messy. If it seems like the puzzle doesn't have all the pieces, then fine, you don't have to have a complete picture. Just let Scripture speak, just let Scripture breathe, because ultimately what Scripture is saying, what it always says, is Jesus. Scripture speaks Jesus to us, let us kneel and hear the Word of God.

That is an abbreviated version of my life story.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Gregory95

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Forgive my ignorance but i knew a lady who's friend little brother was killed by drunk driver he was under 6 i believe and the local Lutheran church members said he was in hell Because he was not "baptized as baby" do you know why they would say this is it Lutheran doctrine or is Wentzville Missouri Lutheran church in error

For the first eight years of my life my family was part of a non-denominational church, after we were kicked out of the church because of lies told by one of the elders of the church we ended up in a tiny Foursquare church that met at the local YMCA (which eventually merged with the Foursquare church the next town over). I spent most of my young life struggling and unsure of my salvation, having been raised to believe that my salvation depended on my coming to Jesus through personal decision and choice. My struggle was over how one could know if they "meant it" when they asked Jesus into their life. So no matter how many times I found myself begging for God to save me, I was always left feeling ultimately empty--since my salvation depended on my making Jesus my Savior, then knowing whether one was truly sincere was very important to me. After all, plenty of people could say the Sinner's Prayer or walk up to an altar call, say the right words, but end up walking away from Jesus (which, as I had been taught in my early life, meant they had never had faith in the first place). So a combination of Decision Theology and OSAS amounted to many years of despair, grief, and doubt. Though I never really expressed these things openly out of fear of others judging me.

In my late teens I was introduced by one of the more educated members of my church to the writings of the Church fathers. I was completely ignorant about the history of Christianity, but had a general interest in history, and so took the opportunity to start learning some of that history. Which led me to also begin talking to other Christians online in discussion forums. This exposed me to a larger range of ideas than I had ever been exposed to before. A couple of those early discussions made me realize that while I thought I knew the Bible, I didn't really know the Bible, I had never seriously studied the Scriptures, and had taken virtually all I had been told growing up for granted.

This combination of studying Scripture, exposing myself to a larger diversity of Christian beliefs, learning theology, and researching the history of Christianity ultimately resulted in me realizing that much of what I had been told to believe might not be true. I had already stopped attending the family church at that point, in part because my mom had passed away the summer between my Junior and Senior years of high school, my father had had to relocate to a new town for work, and I was without a car at the time.

I ended up in a period of wandering in the wilderness for a while, trying out a few churches here, a few churches there. But never finding a spiritual home.

A long story made slightly shorter, I never intended to become Lutheran; it happened basically by complete accident. Of all the different churches I was looking at, Lutheranism wasn't on the list. My "gateway drug" to Lutheranism was ultimately a small conversation I had online years ago now. A Lutheran explained since salvation is by the grace of God alone, then it really must be God's grace alone. My salvation didn't depend on me, it didn't depend on my efforts, it didn't depend on me saying, doing, thinking, feeling the right things; it didn't depend on me being "sincere" enough, it didn't depend on me making a decision, or any of that. It was simply this: Christ died for me.

My salvation was out of my hands and in God's hands, and He is far more faithful, far more merciful, far more excellent than I am. Infinitely so.

A couple other significant occasions involved me reading Martin Luther's account of his "tower experience", where he speaks of his struggle with Romans 1:17, and his epiphany that "the justice of God" here isn't that justice by which God condemns sinners, but the justice by which He makes sinners just. This was the spark which ignited the Reformation. Further, I saw a bit of myself in the historical Luther--the Luther who so desperately wanted to be accepted by God, but found himself nothing but a cold dead sinner; how could God who is holy and just ever accept a sinner who is not? How could one possibly ever know if they are saved? How could one not live in the utter terror and immense dread that they would, very likely, no matter how much they devoted themselves to Jesus, still be condemned to deepest darkest hell? It was a dread, a despair, a guilt that I was intimately familiar with.

That the good news is that salvation is God's work alone, and is not of ourselves, is truly good news.

The more I read Scripture and the more I familiarized myself with Lutheran theology, the more brilliant everything seemed to shine. It felt, in some ways, like I had finally come up for air after having held my breath under water for so long. What seemed so brilliant about the Lutheran treatment of the Bible was, ultimately, it was just letting the Bible be the Bible. Let Scripture say what it says. It's okay if Scripture says something and it doesn't make sense right now, let it say what it says. It's okay if there are paradoxes, it's okay if there are things unexplained, it's okay if there are things that aren't reasonable, it's okay if Scripture doesn't fit in my mind's box, it's okay if Scripture doesn't fit into my preconceptions. It's okay, just let Scripture say what it says. It's not about me figuring it all out, it's not about me making all the pieces fit nice together. If Scripture is messy, let it be messy. If it seems like the puzzle doesn't have all the pieces, then fine, you don't have to have a complete picture. Just let Scripture speak, just let Scripture breathe, because ultimately what Scripture is saying, what it always says, is Jesus. Scripture speaks Jesus to us, let us kneel and hear the Word of God.

That is an abbreviated version of my life story.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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Well first we have to understand you misunderand

argument against bringing children to Jesus in Baptism

i nevee said this nor believe this

First Children can profess faith as they can speak infants cannot speak

Second you are bringing NOONE TO CHRIST only God the Father can do that!

Third you do not understand what baptism is if you think its the water

Any issues

Or

We on common ground now and i can show you what you can't apparently see

Are you limiting speech to vocal communication using language?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Forgive my ignorance but i knew a lady who's friend little brother was killed by drunk driver he was under 6 i believe and the local Lutheran church members said he was in hell Because he was not "baptized as baby" do you know why they would say this is it Lutheran doctrine or is Wentzville Missouri Lutheran church in error

No, that isn't Lutheran teaching.

This would be far closer to Lutheran teaching,

"But if at times some things happen without the service either of angels or of human beings, you would be right in saying: “What is beyond us does not concern us.” We must keep the ordered power in mind and form our opinion on the basis of it. God is able to save without Baptism, just as we believe that infants who, as sometimes happens through the neglect of their parents or through some other mishap, do not receive Baptism are not damned on this account. But in the church we must judge and teach, in accordance with God’s ordered power, that without the outward Baptism no one is saved. Thus it is due to God’s ordered power that water makes wet, that fire burns, etc. But in Babylon Daniel’s companions continued to live unharmed in the midst of the fire (Dan. 3:25). This took place through God’s absolute power, in accordance with which He acted at that time; but He does not command us to act in accordance with this absolute power, for He wants us to act in accordance with the ordered power." - Martin Luther, Lectures on Genesis

Translation: As far as it concerns God's absolute power we let God be God, so we have absolutely no authority to say "so and so" is damned. I don't know who is "in" and who is "out", that's God's business, not mine. So of course we don't say that unbaptized infants are damned. However, the Church's confession isn't about what we do not and cannot know (God's extraordinary and absolute power) but rather in what God has ordered and told us.

To phrase it more briefly: We are limited in what we can say, but God is not limited in what He can do.

If God wants to save a small tribe from the Amazon by sending a legion of angels to announce the Gospel and take all of those islanders directly into heaven, well, that's God's prerogative. What I know, what the Church of Jesus Christ knows, is that Baptism is given to us by Christ's institution by which God makes sinners into sons and daughters.

More briefly: No, we do not believe that six year old is in hell. We believe in the God who meets us in Jesus who is for the whole world. And that means a God of infinite and incomprehensible mercy.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Gregory95

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No, that isn't Lutheran teaching.

This would be far closer to Lutheran teaching,

"But if at times some things happen without the service either of angels or of human beings, you would be right in saying: “What is beyond us does not concern us.” We must keep the ordered power in mind and form our opinion on the basis of it. God is able to save without Baptism, just as we believe that infants who, as sometimes happens through the neglect of their parents or through some other mishap, do not receive Baptism are not damned on this account. But in the church we must judge and teach, in accordance with God’s ordered power, that without the outward Baptism no one is saved. Thus it is due to God’s ordered power that water makes wet, that fire burns, etc. But in Babylon Daniel’s companions continued to live unharmed in the midst of the fire (Dan. 3:25). This took place through God’s absolute power, in accordance with which He acted at that time; but He does not command us to act in accordance with this absolute power, for He wants us to act in accordance with the ordered power." - Martin Luther, Lectures on Genesis

Translation: As far as it concerns God's absolute power we let God be God, so we have absolutely no authority to say "so and so" is damned. I don't know who is "in" and who is "out", that's God's business, not mine. So of course we don't say that unbaptized infants are damned. However, the Church's confession isn't about what we do not and cannot know (God's extraordinary and absolute power) but rather in what God has ordered and told us.

To phrase it more briefly: We are limited in what we can say, but God is not limited in what He can do.

If God wants to save a small tribe from the Amazon by sending a legion of angels to announce the Gospel and take all of those islanders directly into heaven, well, that's God's prerogative. What I know, what the Church of Jesus Christ knows, is that Baptism is given to us by Christ's institution by which God makes sinners into sons and daughters.

More briefly: No, we do not believe that six year old is in hell. We believe in the God who meets us in Jesus who is for the whole world. And that means a God of infinite and incomprehensible mercy.

-CryptoLutheran
So why isn't it better to let them make the decision whenever they choose to no matter age long as it's their own choice

How is this bad?
 
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ViaCrucis

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So why isn't it better to let them make the decision whenever they choose to no matter age long as it's their own choice

How is this bad?

Your infant is sick, do you take them to the doctor or wait until they're old enough to make their own choice?

Do you feel the same way about preaching the Gospel, as in, is it okay to tell our children about Jesus?

Because if you think it's preferable to not baptize our children, then I would imagine you would also think it preferable not to provide medical care for our children, or tell them about Jesus at all. If that sounds absurd to you, then yeah, it sounds absurd to me too.

For what reason could there possibly be for me to deny my child Jesus?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Gregory95

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i thought you admitted only God the Father can bring people to Christ not you thus how could any of us deny what God chooses to give?
Your infant is sick, do you take them to the doctor or wait until they're old enough to make their own choice?

Do you feel the same way about preaching the Gospel, as in, is it okay to tell our children about Jesus?

Because if you think it's preferable to not baptize our children, then I would imagine you would also think it preferable not to provide medical care for our children, or tell them about Jesus at all. If that sounds absurd to you, then yeah, it sounds absurd to me too.

For what reason could there possibly be for me to deny my child Jesus?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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i thought you admitted only God the Father can bring people to Christ not you thus how could any of us deny what God chooses to give?

I can't make anyone a Christian. But God has chosen to work through Means. Otherwise the Great Commission is nonsense. After all, what does St. Paul say?

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent?"

God works through the preaching of the Gospel. It isn't the preacher who converts, it is God who converts; because the word is not the word of the preacher, it is the word of God. Just as when we were baptized, it is not the one administering Baptism who has accomplished anything, it is God who has performed the work; it is God's word not the word of the minister.

Or do you reject the idea that God works through Means?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Gregory95

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This needs addressed

i need clarification

Can a infant understand the words you are speaking

Or

Is God a good Father thus gives what is asked for and not by our own power will or anything we do for no works of our own will save anyone

Or something else because

You cannot have 100%grace if you believe you need anything else



I can't make anyone a Christian. But God has chosen to work through Means. Otherwise the Great Commission is nonsense. After all, what does St. Paul say?

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent?"

God works through the preaching of the Gospel. It isn't the preacher who converts, it is God who converts; because the word is not the word of the preacher, it is the word of God. Just as when we were baptized, it is not the one administering Baptism who has accomplished anything, it is God who has performed the work; it is God's word not the word of the minister.

Or do you reject the idea that God works through Means?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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This needs addressed

i need clarification

Can a infant understand the words you are speaking

Doubtful.

Or

Is God a good Father thus gives what is asked for and not by our own power will or anything we do for no works of our own will save anyone

He gives without even being asked. He is more than good, He is gracious.

Or something else because

You cannot have 100%grace if you believe you need anything else

Right, it can't be pure grace if we have to add something of ourselves to it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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